RSL?

[AndyMan 7]

I'm awaiting delivery of my new Stiletto, which I'll be loading around 1.45.
The people who I respect at my DZ are recomending that I remove my RSL when I install the Stiletto. Their logic is that an RSL deployment from a spinning eliptical is a greater risk then no pull, or late pull.
I've had one cuttaway, but it was a slow speed mal. I'm confident that I could deal with a high speed mal, but have never experienced one.
Despite the common advice at my DZ to ditch the dope rope, I suspect there's gonna be a few people here who think otherwise...
I have a cypres, but am not under the delusion they accomplish the same thing.
_Am

[amir1967 0]

You are right , I wouldn't disconnect the RSL I just didn't put one , at least here most people agree that RSL don't go with Stiletto or any other Elliptical canopy
AM67

[USPA 0]

To use an RSL or not to use in an ongoing debate, my personal view is that there is no "correct" answer, both sides are correct, it's a choice you have to make after hearing both sides.
you could search the rec.skydiving group on www.dejanews.com.
Though I must comment on your post, that a no pull or (too) late pull is ALWAYS worse then an unstable pull, simply because your death then...

[R00tj00se 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=forumsafetytraining&Number=74533&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=
Read this. You'll need to paste each section into your address bar (I think).

[Aviatrr 0]

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The people who I respect at my DZ are recomending that I remove my RSL when I install the Stiletto. Their logic is that an RSL deployment from a spinning eliptical is a greater risk then no pull, or late pull.

An RSL deployment from a spinning mal is DEFINITELY preferable to a no pull/late pull......but if you are confident that you can deploy your reserve, in time, on your own - ditch the RSL.. If you are not confident in that ability, don't start jumping a Stilleto..
I had a cutaway from a Spinneto that was pretty nasty....I was spinning on my back when I chopped, and I feel that an RSL could have caused a reserve malfunction.. I took a few seconds to get stable(I cutaway pretty high, so I had the time) before I deployed the reserve..
Mike

[AndyMan 7]

There are no dissenting opinions?
I'm surprised.
Cool.
_Am

[billvon 2,426]

>An RSL deployment from a spinning mal is DEFINITELY preferable to a no pull/late pull......but if you are
>confident that you can deploy your reserve, in time, on your own - ditch the RSL.. If you are not confident in that ability,
>don't start jumping a Stilleto..
I've heard this a lot, and I'm afraid I don't believe that line of reasoning. Two weeks ago Tammy, a 4-way jumper with a little over 1000 jumps, cut away from a spinner and tried to find her reserve handle until her cypres fired. Several years ago, Rick Horn had a similar mal and could not find his reserve handle, either. Fortunately he had an RSL that opened his reserve and he landed safely. At the time he had something like 6000 jumps, and was an AFF JCC course director, so you'd be hard pressed to claim there's anyone in the country better at teaching reserve procedures.
The decision to use an RSL is up to the jumper. But claiming that only people who aren't confident they can find their reserve handle need an RSL is foolish - unless you want to tell someone like Rick Horn that he's not competent to find his reserve handle, or to fly an elliptical. People much better than us have needed an RSL, and even if you're 100% confident you can find your handles and pull them, history shows that you can be proven wrong.
-bill von

[alan 1]

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There are no dissenting opinions?

Plenty, it is just that people have become weary of typing them every few months when this comes up. USPA and ROOtjOOse have both recommended doing a search which will yield the pros and cons. As far as the logic that the possibility of an unstable reserve deployment via the RSL following a cutaway form a spinning mal is a worse scenario than a no pull in the same situation, well anyone who can't see the flaw there needs to spend some serious one on one time with a KNOWLEDGEABLE instructor.
alan

[Aviatrr 0]

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The decision to use an RSL is up to the jumper. But claiming that only people who aren't confident they can find their reserve handle need an RSL is foolish - unless you want to tell someone like Rick Horn that he's not competent to find his reserve handle, or to fly an elliptical.

I'd be willing to bet that if you ask Rick if he is confident in his abilities to pull his reserve after a cutaway, barring any unforseen circumstances, he would say he is.....THAT is what I was getting at.. Yes, I've heard of these stories where people couldn't find their reserve handle.. I have not had that problem myself, and will not use an RSL.. Just like every other piece of equipment, they can be helpful and they can hurt you..
I do have a question about all these incidents, though......what type of cutaway/reserve pull do they use? Both hands on each handle, or one hand per handle? I use the one hand per handle method, and do not cutaway until I have the reserve handle in my left hand.. I have not had my harness shift significantly during a mal, and one was quite a nasty spinner.. Of course, there is always the possibility, but I knowingly take that chance..
Mike

[AndyMan 7]

Alan, I disagree.
I don't think the topic has ever been addressed properly, either here or in wreck.skydiving. This is why I asked.
R00tj00se's anecdote was a great anecdote of the risks, but left little in terms of opinion. When I searched google I found a bunch of people recomending not to use one on an elipticals. I didn't find anyone actually recomending one. The closest is Bill Von, who always talks about the risks of not using one.
Bill, do you use one your elipticals? Do you actually recomend them, or do you just want people to know the risks?
And when I said "Their logic is that an RSL deployment from a spinning eliptical is a greater risk then no pull, or late pull." I thought it was clear that I meant the odds of it happening rather then the risk from the outcome. It's obvious that bouncing from a no-pull is worse then an RSL pull while spinning. I just don't think the former is a real risk, for me.
USPA also commented that "it's a choice you have to make after hearing both sides". At both SDC and Hinckley, people tell me matter-of-factly, that I'd be a fool not to get rid of it. Is there no other opinion?
Or, is it a no-bainer like everyone I speak to tells me?
_Am

[billvon 2,426]

>I do have a question about all these incidents, though......what type of cutaway/reserve pull do they use?
>Both hands on each handle, or one hand per handle? I use the one hand per handle method, and do not cutaway
>until I have the reserve handle in my left hand..
Rick uses the one hand per handle method. He could not find the reserve handle, and decided that cutting away was a better choice than riding the mal in (it was a very highly loaded elliptical.) If you do use this system, just make sure that you have not trained yourself so well that you spend 20 seconds looking for that reserve handle before you cut away.
-bill von

[billvon 2,426]

>Bill, do you use one your elipticals?
About half the time I hook it up when jumping an elliptical. It depends what I'm doing, which rig I'm jumping, what the winds are etc.
>Do you actually recomend them, or do you just want people to know the risks?
In general, I recommend most people use them unless they have a good reason not to. For me, CRW and testing a new canopy are good reasons not to use one. There's no one recommendation that covers everyone, but here are some guidelines I use:
-If you've never had a cutaway, or you have a soft reserve handle, or you have a small elliptical and you tend to pull on the lowish side, it's a very, very good idea.
-If you've had a few cutaways, you tend to open high (i.e. above 2500) and you are used to jumping several types of gear (i.e. you do tandems and AFF) it's less important.
-A cypres isn't a replacement for an RSL by any means, but it can keep you alive if you don't have one under certain specific conditions (i.e. if you pull high, react to mals quickly and don't 'stall' looking for the reserve handle.) Tammy's save was an example of this sort of backup - although she would have been much better off with an RSL, and now uses one.
-bill von

[alan 1]

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Alan, I disagree.
I don't think the topic has ever been addressed properly, either here or in wreck.skydiving. This is why I asked.

Fair enough, maybe the problem is in how we define "addressed properly" or how much effort you have put into looking. There are at least 3 different articles on the topic here in this website alone in the Gear Articles section. Rec.skydiving has had numerous threads with both pros and cons and it has been addressed in Parachutist a time or two in the last few years. The bottom line is pretty much as USPA (Paul) said in his reply. There is no right or wrong answer. You have to make the best choice for you. But, since it is an important issue and your desire for more information seems sincere, I'll share my thoughts on the topic.
There is a risk involved in using an RSL with a hp elliptical at higher wingloadings. No surprise there. During a violent, spinning mal, you most likely will have an unstable reserve deployment. The popular fear here is that an unstable reserve deployment increases the chances of a malfunction of the reserve parachute. So, does this justify not using an RSL with a hp ellitical? I don't know. Keep in mind that as students, most of us learn that poor or unstable body position during deployment is one of the leading causes (contributing factors) of malfunctioning mains. From that we make a leap of logic that it will be true of the reserve as well. I'm not convinced the facts support that. Reserves and mains are not designed the same. For example, the reserve uses a freebag which is designed to allow the canopy to deploy even if the pc or bridle entangle with the unstable jumper. Another example is the speed at which the canopy is designed/packed to deploy. The reserve is designed to fully deploy in less than 3 seconds flat, whereas if your main consistently did that, you would be unhappy. Why is that important? It is up and gone/inflated before you can entangle in it or less time is allowed for line twists to develop during the deployment sequence. My point is that the reserve is _designed_ to open under the assumption that you _will_ be unstable and/or spinning during and after the cutaway. History has shown us there is a risk that cutting away from a violently spinning, malfunctioned, hp elliptical main can result in a malfunctioned reserve with resulting death or severe injury, but that the odds are that it will more often save the jumpers life. You can review the fatality reports to confirm this, although there are those out there who can interpret them differently, depending on what position you are taking. My position is, it is your life, _you _ decide how you wish to interpret the fatality reports.
Some other things to consider. In my opinion/experience, one reason some of these malfunctions get so violent is that people often wait too long to deal with them......they let the spin develop while they make decisions or try to fix something that can't be fixed. Be current and have your shit together. I experienced a mal under a VX @ ~2.4 at the time. The RSL was a non-factor. But, change any one of a number of elements, and it could have contributed to saving or killing me, depending on what element of the situation was changed. The locking loop on my right riser three ring release failed (it had only been hot glued under the confluence wrap, not bartacked) as the canopy was coming out of the d-bag. If it had been the left one, the RSL would have deployed my reserve into my still attached and badly malfunctioning main. My cutaway was difficult because of all of the forces being transferred to one set of three rings and the almost immediate, violent spin. (My right riser slingshotted up _through_ my canopy.) It was obvious from the beginning that this was not a fixable situation and I never tried, just went for my handles. It was so bad, so fast, I had to use two hands to cutaway. What if I had opened a few hundred feet lower? What if I had delayed in attempting my cutaway? There are a lot of "what ifs". Bottom line, I was spinning and unstable as my reserve deployed. It opened cleanly and on heading with only about 3/4 of a line twist as I recall. An 89 VX at 2.4 with a catastrophic riser failure during deployment. Hmmmm, I wonder how much worse it can get for violent spinning mals? So, is it my position that you should use an RSL under your Stiletto? No. It is my position that you should know your equipment and make your own choices.
I included my anecdote simply to demonstrate that there is some truth to an old saying many of us have heard at one time or another. "You can do everything right and still die." Most of the "experts" giving you advice at the DZ are generally, and in my opinion, more like "parrots". They just repeat what they have heard and don't take the time to really learn or even just think about what they have heard. Be careful who you listen to, both on the pro and con side.
There are some very respected parrots out there. Keep the student mindset.......THINK and keep learning.
Are there any areas about RSL use that are pretty universally agreed upon? Maybe. Most of us agree that RSL use with a video helmet/camera is not recommended. An RSL is not recommended during CRW. Skysurfers usually recommend against using an RSL during that activity. On a windy day, you can disconnect it once you are under a good canopy, although there may be other, bigger issues in this case. BSRs require them for students. The RSL will deploy your reserve faster than even the best of the yank, yank people. You can't and shouldn't depend on it. It is better to land under a reserve with line twists than under one at line stretch. In the event of a low cutaway, they are more likely to save you than kill you, even under an elliptical. They can be and have been a contributing factor in fatalities. Can you think of others?
It is about risk management and how accurately you are able to assess _your_ risk exposure and make a cost/benefit analysis.

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And when I said "Their logic is that an RSL deployment from a spinning eliptical is a greater risk then no pull, or late pull." I thought it was clear that I meant the odds of it happening rather then the risk from the outcome. It's obvious that bouncing from a no-pull is worse then an RSL pull while spinning.

OK, so what you were trying to say is that you are more likely to experience an RSL deployed reserve while still spinning after a cutaway from a spinning elliptical mal ( with the implication of increased probability of a reserve mal) than you are to cutaway and not pull your reserve handle or pull it in time. Sounds fair enough.

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I just don't think the former is a real risk, for me.

Fair enough as well. Just a few questions though. How often do you disassemble, inspect, and maintain your cutaway system? How current do you stay? How many mals have you had? Has anyone ever unexpectedly opened "too" near you? Have you ever had to open a little low because someone was unexpectedly above you at wave off? There is no need to answer any of these. I just asked them to get you to think a little more about the "it can't happen to me" attiude your statement implied. Be well and be safe. If this has sounded a tough on you, well, just chalk it up to tough love.
alan

[AndyMan 7]

That would make a great article for the Safety screen.
Thanks. This is exactly the response I hadn't found elsewhere.
_Am