tphilpin 0 #1 June 8, 2004 Hello Old Timers, Looking for any and all information about Para Plane Clouds. Have a clean, apparently airworthy example in a Pioneer 3 pin container with the PCR reefing system and twin pilot chutes. Poynters already examined for info. Hoping to find particulars about packing issues, flight characteristics, etc for the combination. Thanks Tony Philpin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgc372 0 #2 June 8, 2004 What particlar information are you looking for? I have the owners manual from my first Para Plane from around 1972, so I could look up anything you require. If it still has the original reefing system you are in for some interesting experiences, the openings would vary from really soft to knock you out. In my first 500 jumps on these parachutes I did ten or eleven cutaways because of that reefing system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #3 June 8, 2004 If you want it to stay original equipment condition that is fine, but if you want to jump it, I'd put a slider on it. It might require some reworking of the lines to fingertrap them if they have those little half-knots on them at the junctions. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #4 June 8, 2004 QuoteI'd put a slider on it Quote Most definitely put a slider on it... And if you're going to stay with the spring loaded pilot chute system.. Consider just using just one... I'm guessing there are two 'MA1's' on there now... The reasons for that ...(as I recall) were two fold, One... to get the mess off your back clean... remember that 'set up' was from the BIG jumpsuit days. And two... With more drag from the pilot chutes, the reefing system had to work harder to open...i.e. softer. If you want to use the PCR, see if the person above can photocopy the packing manual for you... and pack it a few times prior to jumping it... One of the many problems w/ the PCR system was if you weren't absolutely meticulous in your Flake / Fold and positioning of the reefing line... It would tend to burn holes in the canopy during deployment. Have fun..and spot short! They didn't fly as well as what you're used to!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #5 June 9, 2004 Hi Airtwardo If my memory serves me correctly There was a theory back in the day that "pilot chute (P.C.) hesitations" could be prevented by the twin P.C. method. Some folks had different tecniques of packing the twin P.C.s one directly on top of the other or one toward the top of the container and the other towards the bottom. Both a pain to pack IMO. I remember seeing a picture in parachutist of a person in freefall right after the P.C.'s had started to launch and one P.C. was pointing up and the other one was pointing in the opposite direction. (going in opposing directions I'm not sure if the opposing P.C.s in the photo were caused by a incorrect bridle length or just SOS. The dual system P.C. system worked and was populer for a while at our one tree DZ in Kansas. Personally a origional PPC with the rope & rings & half hitch reefing system, w/o the stabilzers with all the binding tape with the really long thick suspension lines is like a classic car. Leave it as is open high and enjoy. (Make sure the canopy bag isn't rotten.) R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #6 June 9, 2004 Quotelike a classic car. Leave it *** Good point! But if you haven't jumper one...or even seen one jumped, It might be like my first ride on an old BSA... Everything ain't where it's 'postda beeee! LOOK OOOOUT!!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #7 June 9, 2004 Hi Airtwardo Reading the instructions while packing could be usefull to figure out what goes where. Don't know what would happen without the half hitch, maybe a hard opening? The trim strap? thing on the risers that were used just in case the canopy was delivered by the factory with a slight turn could also be confusing. I don't think i'd readjust them until at least after the first jump. I hope none of this old fart stuff will deter the new owner from jumping his new toy. It's a classic and imo the hot thing at its time. If folks are jumping a Delta 2 the cloud had a much lower Mal rate. But in a one tree DZ in kansas. we were always kinda of backward. Oops I forgot that was that because we were still jumping the Para commander in 15mph winds and always had a short spot. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tphilpin 0 #8 June 14, 2004 Thanks for the advice and info. Have located a ParaPlane manual which should sort out the packing details. Plan on jumping with the rings and ropes, but have heard about the problems mentioned. Who would have info on the size and mods required for a slider? I heard this was popular, but I think the slider may stumble of the shrink tubing on the cascades and the 1,000 lb lines. Appreciate the help, Thanks to all Tony Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #9 June 14, 2004 QuoteThanks for the advice and info. Have located a ParaPlane manual which should sort out the packing details. Plan on jumping with the rings and ropes, but have heard about the problems mentioned. Who would have info on the size and mods required for a slider? I heard this was popular, but I think the slider may stumble of the shrink tubing on the cascades and the 1,000 lb lines. Hi Tony I bought a origional way back when, had the canopy modified to a slider but the rigger also put a new set of suspension lines on it (thinner) & added the stabilizers. Got very expensive, (more tha I paid for the canopy) and more than it was worth. With all the binding tape on the canopy (you can remove a lot of it) and the size of the canopy it will still pack like the size of a large tent. I can check my collection for the slider, I burned the canopy a long time ago. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 4 #10 June 14, 2004 QuoteThanks for the advice and info. Have located a ParaPlane manual which should sort out the packing details. Plan on jumping with the rings and ropes, but have heard about the problems mentioned. Who would have info on the size and mods required for a slider? I heard this was popular, but I think the slider may stumble of the shrink tubing on the cascades and the 1,000 lb lines. If I recall correctly I was able to re-do the suspension lines and finger trap them, without replacing the entire line set--just remove the shrink-wrap, and sewing. I also recall that I made an educated guess about the size of the slider and it seemed to be OK. If I was to do it again, I'd probably make the slider width consistent with modern canopies of the same span, and I'd make the chord a bit bigger. You might also consider a domed or pocket slider. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sprtdth 0 #11 June 15, 2004 I modified a Para Plane to a slider after my first jump, and malfunction, on one. All I did was take off all the shrink wraps, and all the tape EXCEPT on the nose and tail. I don't remember what size slider I used, but I think one for a RavenIII might work. I packed it into a Strato Star bag (they said it wouldn't fit, what do old guys know?). I went up to 2500 for some accuracy, three seconds later I pull and watch the looong lines unstow, my two MA-1's fully inflated, then everything stopped. Inflated pilotchutes, line strech,baglock. Cutaway, dump my bellywart. Watched this thing sail past me 'til it hit the ground, then the bag exploded open. I didn't think about it having to come back out when I stuffed it in the bag. CRW Skies FrankCRW Skies Frank CRW Diva #58 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #12 June 15, 2004 QuoteI remember seeing a picture in parachutist of a person in freefall right after the P.C.'s had started to launch and one P.C. was pointing up and the other one was pointing in the opposite direction. (going in opposing directions One of the reasons 2 PC set ups fell from favor is that one will always pull against the other. The first one to catch air went up and would drag the other one along. What was needed to get the PC out of the burble of the big suits was a longer bridle. Most of them were 36" finished. The PC would launch, hit the end of the bridle and rebound back on the the jumper. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jonstark 8 #13 June 15, 2004 The Hot Dog was a good evolution away from two PCs but was even harder to pack and cost quite a bit as I recall... OLd MA1s were usually laying around and you could get 'em for pennies if not for free. Wasn't the HD about $100?! I pulled my reserve for repack with my friend across the room and the HotDog gave him a fat lip and almost got me a black eye. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #14 June 15, 2004 I thing you are right about the price of a HD. Today you couldn't give them away. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #15 June 17, 2004 QuoteI thing you are right about the price of a HD. Today you couldn't give them away. *** AND.. There were at least two 'hot dog' types going around. One was the 'real' HotDog, and another was a knockoff, much cheaper... The knockoff wasn't TSO'd and cost me a week of jumping once because I had to order a 'real' one from ParaGear or my new rigger wouldn't pack my 23' TriCon in the 'wart'. Also, though the HotDog had a larger stronger spring, the pull force when open was less than an MA1... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites usedtajump 1 #16 June 17, 2004 I think the knockoff called a Hotshot and no, it didn't have a TSO stamp on it. I remember several people had their rigs grounded until they got a properly certified PC in their reserves.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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darkwing 4 #10 June 14, 2004 QuoteThanks for the advice and info. Have located a ParaPlane manual which should sort out the packing details. Plan on jumping with the rings and ropes, but have heard about the problems mentioned. Who would have info on the size and mods required for a slider? I heard this was popular, but I think the slider may stumble of the shrink tubing on the cascades and the 1,000 lb lines. If I recall correctly I was able to re-do the suspension lines and finger trap them, without replacing the entire line set--just remove the shrink-wrap, and sewing. I also recall that I made an educated guess about the size of the slider and it seemed to be OK. If I was to do it again, I'd probably make the slider width consistent with modern canopies of the same span, and I'd make the chord a bit bigger. You might also consider a domed or pocket slider. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sprtdth 0 #11 June 15, 2004 I modified a Para Plane to a slider after my first jump, and malfunction, on one. All I did was take off all the shrink wraps, and all the tape EXCEPT on the nose and tail. I don't remember what size slider I used, but I think one for a RavenIII might work. I packed it into a Strato Star bag (they said it wouldn't fit, what do old guys know?). I went up to 2500 for some accuracy, three seconds later I pull and watch the looong lines unstow, my two MA-1's fully inflated, then everything stopped. Inflated pilotchutes, line strech,baglock. Cutaway, dump my bellywart. Watched this thing sail past me 'til it hit the ground, then the bag exploded open. I didn't think about it having to come back out when I stuffed it in the bag. CRW Skies FrankCRW Skies Frank CRW Diva #58 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #12 June 15, 2004 QuoteI remember seeing a picture in parachutist of a person in freefall right after the P.C.'s had started to launch and one P.C. was pointing up and the other one was pointing in the opposite direction. (going in opposing directions One of the reasons 2 PC set ups fell from favor is that one will always pull against the other. The first one to catch air went up and would drag the other one along. What was needed to get the PC out of the burble of the big suits was a longer bridle. Most of them were 36" finished. The PC would launch, hit the end of the bridle and rebound back on the the jumper. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #13 June 15, 2004 The Hot Dog was a good evolution away from two PCs but was even harder to pack and cost quite a bit as I recall... OLd MA1s were usually laying around and you could get 'em for pennies if not for free. Wasn't the HD about $100?! I pulled my reserve for repack with my friend across the room and the HotDog gave him a fat lip and almost got me a black eye. jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 June 15, 2004 I thing you are right about the price of a HD. Today you couldn't give them away. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #15 June 17, 2004 QuoteI thing you are right about the price of a HD. Today you couldn't give them away. *** AND.. There were at least two 'hot dog' types going around. One was the 'real' HotDog, and another was a knockoff, much cheaper... The knockoff wasn't TSO'd and cost me a week of jumping once because I had to order a 'real' one from ParaGear or my new rigger wouldn't pack my 23' TriCon in the 'wart'. Also, though the HotDog had a larger stronger spring, the pull force when open was less than an MA1... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #16 June 17, 2004 I think the knockoff called a Hotshot and no, it didn't have a TSO stamp on it. I remember several people had their rigs grounded until they got a properly certified PC in their reserves.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
