WFFC 1 #26 April 7, 2003 QuoteI didnt mean to pick on SDC at all. Figured as much, but just wanted to add some others to the mix that are implementing policies. Roger gets picked on enough as it is and SDC came up a few times so just wanted to make sure that others are doing this. QuoteI was thinking in smaller terms of the local community and how it affects the local DZ, but it certainly affects the sport of skydiving as a whole. It affects the whole sport as a whole even though some might say that it's a local political/advertising/whatever battle. QuoteSo I guess I still ask the question:How many drug related skydiving deaths constitute a drug problem for the skydiving industry, percieved or real??? Our family is small so when people hear of 1 incident where a jumper went in and had traces of xyz in their system, the 'perceived' public opinion is that all skydivers are adrenaline crazed drug addicts. QuoteI also ask:What are we, as skydivers going to do about it and how many more drug related deaths do we have to endure until the FAA or some other organization starts governing our sport??? hence this discussion. QuoteI think that we need to look at the bigger picture than politics at local DZs. Unfortunately, some are not able to do that. QuoteWas the other fatality at Rantoul??? I don't believe so, but I'll check Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #27 April 7, 2003 QuoteI see that as being discriminated against because I believe in my 4th amendment rights. If a condition of initial or continued employment is peeing in a cup, your 4th amendment rights are not being violated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tf15 0 #28 April 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteThat would have relevance if it were a government mandated test and you would be prosecuted for failing it. It is not relevant for a private business decision. If you (generic) don't like it, just don't apply for a position there. That's a little simplistic considering how pervasive random testing is. If I refuse to submit to random drug testing and am not hired because of it, I see that as being discriminated against because I believe in my 4th amendment rights. The 4th Amendment, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights, limits the power of government. It has no relevance to private employment practice. How do you feel about drug testing for airline pilots? Three times is enemy action Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #29 April 7, 2003 Its a tricky situation indeed... I checked in the incident reports for Rantoul and couldnt find anything in there either, I will keep looking. It was fairly well publicized and it got my attention by the sampler basket of party favors that were in their system. I believe the report said that they werent necessarily under the influence at the time but traces of these drugs were in their system and some of them were chemicals that go through the body quickly, within 24-48 hrs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #30 April 7, 2003 So the discussion continues...so if we are going to be self regulating, some DZs are having drug testing to be "self regulating". It seems as though people are split on this issue one way or the other. What are the alternatives to drug testing in self regulation??? If people are so heated on this issue we should come up with some creative alternatives to peeing in a cup. Any thoughts??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #31 April 7, 2003 Quote Kankakee is within 50 miles Nope! Kakakee is over 80 miles. MAPQUEST __ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #32 April 7, 2003 Quote Quote Kankakee is within 50 miles Nope! Kakakee is over 80 miles. MAPQUEST Hmm...but it's probably technically within a 50 mile radius. I'm still confused as to why Hinckley and Kankakee were brought up. Hinckley drug tests (according to Andy, so if I'm wrong...shoot him!). I'm not sure if Kankakee does or not, but Bob watches staff extremely closely, and daytime recreation is strongly forbidden. If there are dzs within the area with problems, then by all means bring them up. Neither Hinckley or Kankakee should have fingers being pointed at them, however, in this discussion. Yes, I know people were trying to tell Andy there were other dzs in the area...good job.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #33 April 7, 2003 QuoteI'm still confused as to why Hinckley and Kankakee were brought up. Hinckley drug tests (according to Andy, so if I'm wrong...shoot him!). The general topic was 'does your dz test staff member and what dz'. it's fluctuated a little bit and I would prefer that it not change into a dz debate. btw-Val, tell Bob I'll be up sometime this summer before the WFFC since I'm moving back in the neighborhood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #34 April 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat would have relevance if it were a government mandated test and you would be prosecuted for failing it. It is not relevant for a private business decision. If you (generic) don't like it, just don't apply for a position there. That's a little simplistic considering how pervasive random testing is. If I refuse to submit to random drug testing and am not hired because of it, I see that as being discriminated against because I believe in my 4th amendment rights. The 4th Amendment, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights, limits the power of government. It has no relevance to private employment practice. How do you feel about drug testing for airline pilots? you mean the same way the goverment controls speed limits in states, it just doenst give them money to fix the roads.. money rules the world wither its a written law or not the goverment has a HUGE effect on how private businesses are run simply by taking a stance one way or another, no official regulation nessesary, they'll just threaten your lively hood if you dont fall in line.. even a fatality is no reason to institute such invasive, draconian measures, its your life, lose it in any manner you chose. If you want to get high and jump your just a candidate for the next darwin award and the O2 you save will be used by someone else...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #35 April 7, 2003 Although I don't work in a skydiving related industry (Biotech) - part of the prehire process is a drug screen - fail - no job - simple as that. Welcome to the world of responsibility. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #36 April 7, 2003 Quote...its your life, lose it in any manner you chose... Yes, but the caveat, don't take someone else (student, other skydiver, etc.) out with you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #37 April 7, 2003 exactly, but saying someone who is using drugs will do so is just as arsine as saying anyone who owns a gun will fire it off in their front yard and kill someone next time they have a few beers after work. so how do you regulate everyone with a potentially lethal device and/or situation, who may become influenced by any number of factors that can potentially affect ones judgment and possibly create a hazard for someone else...and still say you live in a free country??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #38 April 7, 2003 Quoteso how do you regulate everyone with a potentially lethal device and/or situation, who may become influenced by any number of factors that can potentially affect ones judgment and possibly create a hazard for someone else...and still say you live in a free country?? put stop gaps in place that try to 'prevent' (edit to add: prevention will not necessarily stop a problem, but it could help in avoiding it) things from happening, which is what some DZOs are doing with random pee cup tests. Sure, it will run some fulltime JMs off. Just because a company has 'rules' in place that you don't like doesn't mean you need to work there. It's a free country to make the choice to work there or not. If you do choose to accept a position, you are subject to the companies rules. It would be a condition of employment - we hire you, pay you so you have to follow our rules, OK? Simply put, it's your choice to get on the airplane and be in the sky with someone that scares you not only in freefall but their ability to fly their canopy without running into you. You can get off the plane and wait till the next available load.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #39 April 7, 2003 QuoteDespite what Roger Nelson implied in his last email, yes. I'm just guessing, but if he was singling out any particular DZ (which I doubt he was), he probably would've meant Morris. There were rumors (NOT confirmed) that people had been seen indulging in the praking lot there. It kind of gave people around here the willies. Roger likes Hinkley, from what I've heard. And so do I. The people are nice, and I like the feel of the place (it reminds me of where I learned to jump, but with bigger planes). I hope I can find time to use the money I've got on an account there this season. What business owners sometimes frail to realize is that healthy competition is good for all businesses involved. Anyway, I'm all for drug testing whatever we can do here to stop the press thinking that this is a place where people just run wild, we should do. Not the the press notices a thing about DZ's when all is well.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scl 0 #40 April 7, 2003 Quotetrying to bring other dropzones down to the level of SDC. I'm confused. In the version of Roger's email that I received, all he said was that all instructors would be tested this year, and any instructor who didn't want to be tested was free to work somewhere else. How is that name calling or dragging other DZs down to any "level"? Maybe I didn't read thoroughly enough. (BTW, I don't know any regular SDC jumper who categorically dislikes other DZs. If there's a rivalry, it's one-sided.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #41 April 7, 2003 QuoteWas the other fatality at Rantoul??? I think the other fatality you're thinking of was at SDC the summer BEFORE last. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #42 April 7, 2003 Not sure. I remember it recently. The guy had Coke, E/X, and grass in his system...I could have sworn it was in the past year...almost positive, but hey, could be wrong. Either way, it doesnt make a difference to this discussion and when it is publicized and it makes skydiving look bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #43 April 7, 2003 Yep, I think that was two summers ago here. The guy had been out partying the night before, to celebrate his birthday. I totally agree with you on this subject. People already think we're nuts for jumping out of planes in the first place. I can't see anything wrong with combatting bad publicity with a drug free staff. I haven't heard of anyopne refusing to work here because of the testing policy, and I think it's because SDC staff understands the need for it. It just makes sense to test people taking others' lives in their hands, whether that be teaching or packing. It would suck to test fun jumpers though, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #44 April 7, 2003 Yep, its a fine line you have to walk. I personally feel that if you have other peoples lives in your hands...there should be nothing in your system. I have taken care of that from a personal perspective. Skydiving means that much to me. If I know that I am going to go on a bender, I will take myself off the roster before I go on that bender. It pisses me off to see people that are "grounded" for the day and get bent because they stink like booze or look loaded from whatever they took the night before and they cant make any money. Although, I caution people. I have been onthe bad side of this before. A buddy of mine went in on a base jump, Lee Werling, and me and a buddy of mine went on a bender. We found out at about 4 oclock in the afternoon and we quit jumping for the day and we went to drown our sorrows. My buddy stayed up until 5 am drinking and I actually went to bed at around 930...earlier than the rest of the instructors and DZOs by the way. the next day i got pulled aside saying that i was up until 530 drinking and that i shouldnt have students...that rumor came from the pilot who lived in the next trailor as my buddy. totally unfair. so guilty by association and by suspicion doesnt work either...in that instance i would have rather have taken a breathalizer. I think that there should be some sort of compromise solution by a DZ. Point being...Rumors on a DZ can be as "incriminating" as a false positive on a drug test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #45 April 7, 2003 No, I don't think he was - Bob is a great DZO and has a great, friendly DZ. What I was refering to is how Andyman said that there is only 1 DZ outside of SDC in the Chicago area - which isn't true at all. Last time I checked, I went to 4 DZs in the Chicagoland area last summer._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #46 April 7, 2003 QuoteIt would suck to test fun jumpers though, IMO. QuoteYep, its a fine line you have to walk. I personally feel that if you have other peoples lives in your hands...there should be nothing in your system. Unless you're the only one on the plane and in the air you have other peoples lives in your hands. Think about it. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #47 April 7, 2003 QuoteQuotetrying to bring other dropzones down to the level of SDC. (BTW, I don't know any regular SDC jumper who categorically dislikes other DZs. If there's a rivalry, it's one-sided.) That just about sums it up. If it is a DZ with safe planes, I'll jump there and I will like it :) . With the way DZ's are getting closed down, I don't think we have any room for this "my DZ is better than yours" school yard fight. The more DZs near my home the better!!!!_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #48 April 7, 2003 QuoteQuoteIt would suck to test fun jumpers though, IMO. QuoteYep, its a fine line you have to walk. I personally feel that if you have other peoples lives in your hands...there should be nothing in your system. Unless you're the only one on the plane and in the air you have other peoples lives in your hands. Think about it. and as has been pointed out time and time again, there are soooo many more common and equally dangerous factors that are not addressed.. [sarcasm]but hey drug testing is the panacea for dz safety, cant have the DZO actually talk to his staff and know them well enough to personally evaluate their performance and safety, of course not, that might require effort..[/sarcasm]____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #49 April 7, 2003 Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying test everybody - but I do think that the issues are oftentimes glossed over. Personally if I know someone uses - I don't jump with them - it's pretty much that simple. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #50 April 7, 2003 QuoteRumors on a DZ can be as "incriminating" as a false positive on a drug test. i agree with this statement. sadly, some of our fellow jumpers choose to "judge" other's who don't drink, or smoke and just "assume" they're "rats and snitches" i always leave before the beer light comes on, i go to skydive, not to suck up, or start rumors or chat about "who's who" or anything else, i wish everyone else had the same outlook. the way i look at it, if your clean, there is no reason to fear any test, or anything else for that matter. i recieved a pm from a fellow jumper a little while ago, i won't get into specifics, but i was troubled by the remarks. to this person i say "see ya next weekend!"--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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