LouDiamond 1 #26 May 20, 2003 QuoteQuote Quote ------------------------------------------------------------ Of course those of us who realize that a flat pack once S folded is the same orientation may be a little skeptical ------------------------------------------------------------ You want to clarify this a little bit more since I have an idea of what your saying but not sure you meant to say it this way? Many think of a flat pack as the nose and tail both being simply folded toward the middle. This is definitely not at all like a pro pack I do a variation of a flat pack which I think does share some aspects of the 'pro' pack. I first prepare/roll the nose, fold the A lines to the B, then I turn it over so that the nose is placed facing down - toward the ground. Then I place the C & D line groups on top of that, and flake the tail - half on each side before wrapping a bit of it around the front. I think this shares a lot with the pro pack except that the canopy is still just simply S-folded except for the tail which is evenly split to each side, and it is not really possible to place the slider cleanly in the middle of it all. I've witnessed some reserves packed similarly. I'm assuming that what he was trying to say, and how I understand it, is that there is no difference in orientation from flat packing and pro packing once it's S folded. If that is what he is saying then I would have to disagree. A flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed(with the nose 90deg to the right ) Of course, he may not of meant that hence my asking for clarification."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #27 May 20, 2003 QuoteA flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed(with the nose 90deg to the right) The way I do a flat pack the nose is pointed down/forward/at the ground the same as in a pro pack.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #28 May 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteA flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed(with the nose 90deg to the right) The way I do a flat pack the nose is pointed down/forward/at the ground the same as in a pro pack. Correct, your canopy will open oriented to direction of flight."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #29 May 20, 2003 QuoteA flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed(with the nose 90deg to the right ) How come I've never experienced that? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #30 May 20, 2003 Quote Very few people in the sport are aware of the actual meaning of the acronym R.A.M. in ram air... As the air hits the leading edge of a square parachute with openings in the leading edge, something happens that was never seen in solid leading edge airfoils. The air is almost vibrated inward and outward at the openings. This causes the air molecules to be spaced somewhat further apart than normal at the same pressure/temperature. This process, in the earliest days of squares, was given the dubious name of "rarified air molecules", ergo r.a.m.... Over the years since, most jumpers have failed to understand the concept and the entire principle of rarified air molecules has simply become a joke due to ignorance of the principle. So yes, R.A.M. does have a meaning. This phenomenon actually is the reason your canopy remains inflated. Without this air escaping through the leading edge, your nose would simply cave in and your canopy would deflate. More on this rarified air principle can be found in the patent claims of the earliest designers... Jalbert, Snyder, Strong, etc... Chris a.j.m.f. Damn, I learn something new from U all the Time ..Thanks Man.. The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #31 May 20, 2003 Lance is one of my heros! pea gravel pit tandem distance swoops... set the stage for modern day swooping... Every new canopy design... we look at the Lance videos for inspiration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #32 May 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteA flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed(with the nose 90deg to the right ) How come I've never experienced that? Mark How do you pack your chute? If you flat pack with out folding the nose under as described by sundevil you have a chute that is going to initialy open +/-90 to the right until it inflates and straightens out based on the way the nose is in the pack job. This may not be readily apparent unless you get a serious off heading opening. PRO packing differs in that the nose is already oriented in the direction of flight and the whole chute opens the way it is intended to fly, which is on heading. The only time the two methods of packing look similar is once the tail has been flaked and tucked under on the flat pack job. This is where most pro packers lay on their chutes and tuck the excess under. From there on it's all S folds and bagging."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #33 May 20, 2003 QuoteIf you flat pack with out folding the nose under as described by sundevil you have a chute that is going to initialy open +/-90 to the right until it inflates and straightens out based on the way the nose is in the pack job. I've probably jumped a pack job like this a couple thousand times. I haven't experienced the 90-degree off-heading openings you suggest are routine. What are you basing your theory on? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #34 May 20, 2003 Wow thank you GroundZero! That was the answer I think I was looking for. Ahhh yes, the rarified air molecules. I love this website, ask and ye shall receive ...Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #35 May 20, 2003 Glad I could help Jen! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #36 May 20, 2003 >A flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently > than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed >(with the nose 90deg to the right ) I think that, 10 milliseconds after the canopy begins to leave the bag, any packing tricks you do mean next to nothing. If, when the canopy leaves the bag, the slider is against the stops and there are no lines over the top, the primary influence will be the 120mph of air against the 1.1 ounce nylon. Any other effects from packing are pretty secondary. The nose position is especially secondary; the nose isn't inflated when it first leaves the bag, and has as much influence over where the canopy eventually faces as does the fabric between the A and B lines. We used to flat pack all our student mains in a very standard way; the nose always faced left (looking from above the pack job.) We saw about the same amount of left turning vs right turning openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #37 May 20, 2003 Quote>A flat packed chute will deploy from the D bag and open differently > than a PRO packed chute simply based on the manner it was packed >(with the nose 90deg to the right ) I think that, 10 milliseconds after the canopy begins to leave the bag, any packing tricks you do mean next to nothing. If, when the canopy leaves the bag, the slider is against the stops and there are no lines over the top, the primary influence will be the 120mph of air against the 1.1 ounce nylon. Any other effects from packing are pretty secondary. The nose position is especially secondary; the nose isn't inflated when it first leaves the bag, and has as much influence over where the canopy eventually faces as does the fabric between the A and B lines. We used to flat pack all our student mains in a very standard way; the nose always faced left (looking from above the pack job.) We saw about the same amount of left turning vs right turning openings. Exactley, and I'm not debating that. I am saying that a flat packed chute and a pro packed chutes nose are in two different configurations and therfore do not come out of the bag in a "similar" fashion. But the whole idea is to have a consistent on heading opening, with flat packing, as you stated, you see quite a bit more left/right turning openigs as opposed to pro packing. While it all happens rather fast, the chute still has to unfold and inflate and the manner in which it inflates can influence the direction the canopy starts to orient. My whole point being that there IS a difference in flat and pro packing, not only the obvious steps but in the way it ultimately comes out of the bag. Does that really change things at the end of the day? Not really as we all have seen chutes literally stuffed into a D bag and they still come out OK, some just betterr than others."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fergs 0 #38 May 21, 2003 Quote Of course I'm not convinced Proper Ram-air Orientation (PRO) didn't come AFTER someone commented on a trash pack and some sky god said "That's not a trash pack, that's how the Pro's do it." It's been a long time since I have heard "Trash pack" Sparky This thread brought a smile to a really bad day. Terry Flat Pack, PRO Pack, Trash Pack .... then there was Psycho Pack (only psychos pack that way!!) Well a number of us who love to psycho pack were not happy with the term (although we may indeed be psycho ..... well you don't HAVE to be psycho, but it sure helps....), so we've come up with a PROper acronym: Introducing the FLOS pack. Stands for: Flaming Lazy Old Skydivers. So any of you who use the easiest packing method available - the Psycho pack .... you are now FLOSsers. If you are a trash packer, flat packer, PRO packer - try a FLOS, you won't go back.Enjoy. fergs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #39 May 22, 2003 I ProPack, but "think" the best pack job is a flat Propack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcrocker 0 #40 May 24, 2003 hrm, I thought Rarified Air Molecules only occured around the pea pit when a tandem canopy was coming in for a landing. The RAM around the pea pit tends to cause tandem masters to body surf their passengers through the pea pit into the turf on the other side. -Matt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
