Should "hook" turns be banned at demos?

[airtwardo 6]

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I mean for the most part it seems that the more spectator friendly aspects of this sport are swooping and canopy control.

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I'm sure there are those that would appreciate a well
executed swoop at a demo...but for the most part
that really hasn't been my observation.

One team I jump with often does a swoop 'stunt'
as part of the Demo package...we even spiced it up
at bit show biz wise, by having he swooper do a triple
ribbon cut on landing...
playing it up big time with the announcer.

But I wouldn't call it an integral part of the program,
getting somewhat of a ho~hum reaction from the
organizers.

For the most part..
In my experience anyway~

An exit from 5-6000 feet followed by a freefall
to terminal is a crowd pleaser...
they can see you roll out the door and with smoke
on can tell you're picking up speed.

They can't tell a 2 way from an 8 way in most cases.

Open around 3 grand, giving plenty of time for them
to follow the canopy control...see the flag etc.
(more exposure time for the sponsor,
who's name is on the canopies)

CReW is always popular..Flags & Smoke a big draw.

We do one simple presentation that has several jumpers,
all trailing 50 foot F111 streamers both below them and
attached to the canopies top skin ...
chase each other in close proximity during an extended
downward spiral.
With all the spinning and material flapping,
the audience goes wild thinking it's really... 'scary'


I did an extensive interview for a story in an airshow
magazine last year, that touted that act as the
wildest thing the author ever witnessed!
An extremely easy 'stunt' to perform!!


...Again,
a well executed swoop landing may have
it's place in a demo in some circumstances.
But in my 20 plus years of doing demos, the 'heroes'
are usually the person jumping the US Flag...(seldom me)
and the person(s) jumping a LOT of smoke...(often me!)

Consistency is the key...
And 'perfect swoop' every single time,
in various landing areas and conditions seems
to be out of the skill range of a lot of demo jumpers,
at least from what I have seen.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[matthewcline 0]

It is a provisions issued by the FAA when the proper legal paper work has been done and obtained. The provision goes so far as to define a "hook" turn. It discusses axis, pitch, roll and altitude that that type of flying will not be conducted under.

Some of our newer canopies out here can be started into a "hook" turn above the minimum leval and still not recover in time if mis-judged.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 3]

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I was curious about the accuracy requirement on the specific canopy to be jumped.

A Velocity that's loaded up has a multi yard swoop, so the jumper's feet are in contact with the ground longer than the required diameter for accuracy. So is it determined by being able to "stop" within the accuracy diameter?

I am not sure of the wording, my copy is at home and I am not, but I think it says something about landing within a 10 meter circle 10 times in row. To me landing means standing still in the 10 meter circle. If you can't do this, a tight demo target is out of your range.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

USPA SIM Manual Section 7-2

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B. Qualifications and procedures

Back to Section 7-2


1. To initially qualify for the PRO Rating, an applicant must:


a. be a current member of USPA

b. possess a USPA D license

c. have at least 500 jumps on a ram-air canopy

d. make a series of ten jumps into a circle ten meters in diameter (landing within five meters of the center point) using the same model and size canopy.


(1) The applicant must pre-declare each jump to count toward the requirements for the PRO rating.

(2) Once the applicant has started the series, he or she may make non-declared jumps; however, non-declared jumps may not count toward the accuracy requirements for the rating.

(3) All of the ten pre-declared jumps in the series must be successful for any in the series to count toward the rating; and in the event of an unsuccessful jump, the applicant must start a new series.

(4) On each declared jump, the applicant must make the first contact and stop within the ten-meter circle and make all landings standing up.

(5) All declared jumps must witnessed by either an S&TA, Instructor Examiner, or USPA Regional or National Director.

(6) The applicant must obtain signatures of the eligible verifying official for each of the ten jumps.

e. score at least 75% on the PRO Rating exam

f. forward the completed application form to his or her USPA Regional Director for his signature and include:


(1) a 1" x 1" full face photo of the applicant

(2) the completed PRO Rating exam

(3) the rating fee

(4) have the PRO Rating Proficiency card signed off by an I/E, S&TA, or PRO Rating holder indicating that the PRO Rating applicant has received training in the following areas:


(i) ground crew-and served as a ground crew member on at least one Level 1 or Level 2 demo jump

(ii) flag rigging-and made at least one jump with a flag

(iii) smoke rigging-and made at least one jump with smoke

(iv) NOTAM filing and certificates of authorization

(v) crowd control

(vi) post-jump procedures

2. The USPA Regional Director will forward the initial application to USPA Headquarters.

3. Conditions


a. The smallest canopy used during qualification will be the smallest size canopy to be used for minimum landing area (Level 2) jumps, and the canopy size will be noted on the PRO Rating card.

b. USPA will issue an annual PRO Rating expiring not less than 12 months from the last date on the rating application.

c. If a PRO Rating holder's competence is questioned by a FAA or USPA official (including S&TAs), the PRO Rating holder may be required to reaffirm his or her proficiency.

d. To requalify on a smaller canopy:


(1) The rating holder must make three successive, pre-declared jumps, making the first contact and stopping within a circle ten meters in diameter with that canopy.

(2) All landings must be made standing up and be verified by an S&TA, I/E, USPA Judge, or a Regional or National Director.

4. Annual renewal requirements: Within the previous 12 months the PRO holder must perform all the following verified by the signature of a current S&TA, I/E, USPA Judge or Board member (you may not renew yourself) and forward a completed PRO renewal application to USPA Headquarters:


a. Make at least 50 jumps.

b. Submit a 1" x 1" full face photo.


(1) optional

(2) incurs an additional charge for a new card

c. Include the current renewal fee.

d. and any of the following:


(1) perform an accuracy landing within 25 cm. of target center (need not be a stand-up landing) in the presence of a current USPA Regional-, National-, or U.S./FAI International Judge; USPA Regional or National Director; or Instructor/Examiner.

(2) perform a stand-up landing, making the first contact and stopping within a circle ten meters in diameter (landing within five meters of the center) in the presence of a current Regional-, National-, or U.S./FAI International Judge; Regional or National Director; S&TA, or I/E

(3) perform a Level 2 (as defined by USPA and accepted by the FAA) demo jump in the presence of any of the above mentioned USPA officials

5. Lapsed PRO Rating renewal requirements


a. In the event that a PRO Rating holder allows his or her rating to lapse for two years or longer, the initial landing qualification requirements must be met.

b. The canopy used for requalification will be the smallest-sized canopy to be used for minimum landing area (Level 2) jumps.

c. The canopy size will be noted on the PRO Rating card.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[airtwardo 6]

That's what it is now....

Any ideas on what might be added to improve
the rating?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[D22369 0]

Any ideas on what might be added to improve
the rating?

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If the S&TA/load organizer would only put people on demo's that actually had the skills and mentality to do the jump safely - rather then friends and jumping buddy's it would help.

****************
d. To requalify on a smaller canopy:
(1) The rating holder must make three successive, pre-declared jumps, making the first contact and stopping within a circle ten meters in diameter with that canopy.

Get rid of this three jumps and your good to go crap, I know a few jumpers that could bang the peas 10 out of 10 with their larger canopy's, but couldnt do it more than 5 times without a miss on a smaller one..... If you want the rating with a smaller canopy, then It needs to be demonstrated that you can hit the target each and every time with it....3 aint enough proof


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[murps2000 86]

It is a provisions issued by the FAA when the proper legal paper work has been done and obtained. The provision goes so far as to define a "hook" turn. It discusses axis, pitch, roll and altitude that that type of flying will not be conducted under.

Some of our newer canopies out here can be started into a "hook" turn above the minimum leval and still not recover in time if mis-judged.
***

That's what we were told by the pro-rated former golden knight who organized our demo over the 4th of July. As I recall, they defined a hook-turn as a turn of more than 90 degrees under 200 feet. I remember thinking that I could probably still hook my FX into the ground from higher than that with a 90 degree turn if I tried hard enough. It was a moot point, tho, because I took my 135 instead. I agree with most here in thinking hooks have no place on a demo. The crowd claps louder if you do a braked approach and dead center the target.

[airtwardo 6]

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If the S&TA/load organizer would only put people on demo's that actually had the skills and mentality to do the jump safely - rather then friends and jumping buddy's it would help.

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Couldn't agree more!

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Get rid of this three jumps and your good to go crap, I know a few jumpers that could bang the peas 10 out of 10 with their larger canopy's, but couldnt do it more than 5 times without a miss on a smaller one..... If you want the rating with a smaller canopy, then It needs to be demonstrated that you can hit the target each and every time with it....3 aint enough proof

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Again I agree but with a qualifier...

Depending on the LZ...
For a huge one where pinpoint accuri may not be an issue,
3 jumps may indeed get you there...but for anything at all tight, ten would be the minimum.

...And how about making those 'requal' jumps not only
with the canopy, but with any extra demo gear that you
intend to utilize for the performance.

"Flags can make ya fly funny!!"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

Thats what I said, ten times in a ten meter circle. I just said it shorter. Nice 100 ways today.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[itllclear 1]

Per SIM 7(E)(3) Minimum landing areas for PRO Rating holders:

a. For PRO Rating holders, there should be no less than 5,000 square feet of landing area per four jumpers.

That works out to about 70 X 70 feet

Table 7.A defines a level 2 landing area: 2. Allows jumpers to fly under canopy no lower than 50 feet above the crowd and land no closer than 15 feet from the crowd line

When the rating originated, the only canopies out there were pretty docile and could easily sink in under half brakes, so it wasn't an issue.

I've suggested the following change:

1. Rather than the 10 meter circle, set up a square area 70 X 70 feet. Place 10 foot poles around the border, with either crepe paper or crowd control tape between them.

2. a 15 foot border is marked off inside the square, giving a landing area of 40 X 40 feet

3. The jumper has to have a weight suspended 10 feet below the feet.

4. Maximum ground winds 5 kts. (sometimes demos happen on days with NO wind.)

5. The jumper and the suspended weight have to clear the tape 10 feet above the perimeter of the square, (this is only 20 feet instead of 50, but it gives you the idea)and the jumper has to land and remain within the 40 X 40 square.

6. The final of the 10 jumps has to be witnessed by an S & TA, IE, or FAI judge OTHER than the one(s) who witnessed the first 9.

This more closely resembles an actual demo than the 10 meter circle.

Yes, this might be a hassle, but so is the fall out from a demo gone bad.

No, it won't guarantee that nothing will go wrong, but it might make more people realize what they are getting into on a Level 2 jump.

If someone wants to swoop an open field demo, that can be done with less danger to the crowd, and the PRO rating is not an issue.

More comments?

Blue Skies!

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[itllclear 1]

Per SIM 7(E)(3) Minimum landing areas for PRO Rating holders:

a. For PRO Rating holders, there should be no less than 5,000 square feet of landing area per four jumpers.

That works out to about 70 X 70 feet

Table 7.A defines a level 2 landing area: 2. Allows jumpers to fly under canopy no lower than 50 feet above the crowd and land no closer than 15 feet from the crowd line

When the rating originated, the only canopies out there were pretty docile and could easily sink in under half brakes, so it wasn't an issue.

I've suggested the following change:

1. Rather than the 10 meter circle, set up a square area 70 X 70 feet. Place 10 foot poles around the border, with either crepe paper or crowd control tape between them.

2. a 15 foot border is marked off inside the square, giving a landing area of 40 X 40 feet

3. The jumper has to have a weight suspended 10 feet below the feet.

4. Maximum ground winds 5 kts. (sometimes demos happen on days with NO wind.)

5. The jumper and the suspended weight have to clear the tape 10 feet above the perimeter of the square, (this is only 20 feet instead of 50, but it gives you the idea)and the jumper has to land and remain within the 40 X 40 square.

6. The final of the 10 jumps has to be witnessed by an S & TA, IE, or FAI judge OTHER than the one(s) who witnessed the first 9.

This more closely resembles an actual demo than the 10 meter circle.

Yes, this might be a hassle, but so is the fall out from a demo gone bad.

No, it won't guarantee that nothing will go wrong, but it might make more people realize what they are getting into on a Level 2 jump.

If someone wants to swoop an open field demo, that can be done with less danger to the crowd, and the PRO rating is not an issue.

More comments?

Blue Skies!

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[crwmike 0]

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There are two issues with hook turning at demos.

The first issue involves the concept of " never do anything on a demo that you have not already done dozens of times at the DZ." This includes landing close to the fence, hangar, etc.

The second issue involves the difference between DZ fashions and what the public perceives as skill. If you eavesdrop on the crowd during a long turf surf, chances are you will hear "That lame bastard missed the target."

In the long run, the audience only remembers three things:
Did all the skydivers survive?
Did they all and in the correct stadium?
Did they all stand up their landings?

Agreed.

My belief is that there are three things to accomplish on a demo to please the crowd.

-Land in

-Stand up

-Smile and wave

Much over that does is lost on spectators.

Michael

[crwmike 0]

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Any ideas on what might be added to improve
the rating? ***

If the S&TA/load organizer would only put people on demo's that actually had the skills and mentality to do the jump safely - rather then friends and jumping buddy's it would help.

Well, maybe not so much the second part. The assumption is, if you have the rating, you can make the jump. This doesn't seem to be the case.

Back when we only had rocks for gear, the organizer would look around and decide who had what it takes to do the job. No certificates involved. No fees paid ...seemed to work well.

BSBD,

Michael

[crwmike 0]

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I've suggested the following change:

1. Rather than the 10 meter circle, set up a square area 70 X 70 feet. Place 10 foot poles around the border, with either crepe paper or crowd control tape between them.

2. a 15 foot border is marked off inside the square, giving a landing area of 40 X 40 feet

3. The jumper has to have a weight suspended 10 feet below the feet.

4. Maximum ground winds 5 kts. (sometimes demos happen on days with NO wind.)

5. The jumper and the suspended weight have to clear the tape 10 feet above the perimeter of the square, (this is only 20 feet instead of 50, but it gives you the idea)and the jumper has to land and remain within the 40 X 40 square.

6. The final of the 10 jumps has to be witnessed by an S & TA, IE, or FAI judge OTHER than the one(s) who witnessed the first 9.

This more closely resembles an actual demo than the 10 meter circle.

Yes, this might be a hassle, but so is the fall out from a demo gone bad.

No, it won't guarantee that nothing will go wrong, but it might make more people realize what they are getting into on a Level 2 jump.

If someone wants to swoop an open field demo, that can be done with less danger to the crowd, and the PRO rating is not an issue.

More comments?

Blue Skies!

Harry

Most excellent, Harry! It gives a much better sight picture of what will be happening. I've done dozens of demo's but never jumped with anything trailing. I leave that to people much better than me ...I got enough going on just trying to land in, stand up, smile and wave.
Michael

[airtwardo 6]

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Back when we only had rocks for gear, the organizer would look around and decide who had what it takes to do the job. No certificates involved. No fees paid ...seemed to work well

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I hear ya!
I started doing demos using rocks for gear!

But once we learned to walk upright...
All these fargan LAWYERS show up and ruin everything!

I do think that Harry is on to something there...
good test of actual needed skill.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[D22369 0]

The assumption is, if you have the rating, you can make the jump.

I know of one skydiver who has her rating because of who she was dating......

she couldnt hit the peas twice in a row to save her life.... she stuck herself in a tree several years ago, and had her Pro rating at the time, I shoulda put this in my quote, I was speaking of personal knowledge...

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[EDYDO 0]

If you go through all of this to make things more foolproof for the image of the sport, you still have military demo teams exempt from the rules when doing civilian demo jumps. The Rockingham fiasco was done by an exempt group.

What is proposed as a test of skill would, in this area not be a legal demo jump because the 15 feet all around is subtracted from the 5000 sq. feet landing area, ie, if you can't land there, it isn't landing area. We are required to add it to the legal landing area. I am happy to do that.

Ed

[mjosparky 3]

Harry,
I think it would be great to use that as a test. As long as it is set up for new Pro Rating, use it for renewals also.
Sparky

PS: If you can get it set up, I will try it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[matthewcline 0]

The Rockingham jump was not a DOD group.

Currently according to Sue at the National HQ of the FAA the Golden Knights, Leap Frogs and the US Air force are the only DOD teams.

Matt
SE 0299

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[wildWilly 0]

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Advisory Circular 105-2c

FAR Section 105.15 requires a certificate of authorization for these jumps (except for emergencies and certain Armed Forces’ operations as provided in FAR Section 105.11). An application for a certificate of authorization should be submitted at least 4-working days before the intended jump. The application must be submitted in triplicate on FAA Form 7711-2, Certificate of Waiver or Authorization Application, to the FSDO responsible for the area where the jump is to take place. Applying as early as possible will aid the FAA in processing these certificates.

A. The determination of whether the FAA will issue FAA Form 7711-1, Certificate of Waiver or Authorization, and the special provisions will depend on the circumstances of each case. The two main considerations for issuing an authorization will be the documented skill and experience of the parachutist making the jump and the size of the landing area. Examples of these requirements are:

1. Parachutists who hold a USPA Class C or D license or a member of a Department of Defense (DOD)-sanctioned parachute demonstration team must select a landing area that will permit the jumper to land not closer than 50 feet from any spectator and will not involve passing over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 250 feet.

2. Parachutists who hold a USPA Class D license or a member of a steerable DOD-sanctioned parachute demonstration team, who certify that they will use a square main and reserve canopy, should be permitted to exit over or land into a congested area. Landing area restrictions as indicated in subparagraph a1. should apply. Parachutists with exhibition ratings, in addition to being allowed to exit over or land into congested areas, must not land closer than 15 feet from any spectator and will not pass over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 50 feet.



In FAR 105 it states:

80. LANDING AREAS

A. USPA divides landing areas into tow distinct categories, depending on the demonstrated competency of the parachutist.

1. Level One: Parachutists who hold a USPA Class C or D license must select a landing area that permits the jumper to land no closer than 50 feet from any spectator and does not involve passing over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 250 feet.
2. Level Two: Parachutists who hold a USPA Class D license with an exhibition (PRO) rating and who certify that they shall use a steerable square main and reserve canopy, shall be permitted to exit over or into a congested area. The selected landing area must permit the jumper to land no closer than 15 feet from any spectator and does not involve passing over persons on the surface at an altitude of less than 50 feet.

I hate calling people out like this but......

For a great video of a FAR violation look up FreeflyDrew's thread in the canopy fourm. He passes less then 50 feet over the crowd. The jump turned out great.. but look at the video and think what would have happened if he had leveled out a bit sooner in the hook.

I didn't see anything about hook turns.

growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.

[mjosparky 3]

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I didn't see anything about hook turns.

If you read the rest of the posts in this thread, you will see Special Provisions mentioned. The heading on the list is "Special Provisions for Parachute Jumps".
The first paragraph states: "These Special Provisions are an integral part of the Certificate of Authorization". They come attached to the 7711-1 and list anything and everything the issuing inspector can think of. It is here that the hook turn is addressed.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[freeflydrew 0]

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I hate calling people out like this but......

For a great video of a FAR violation look up FreeflyDrew's thread in the canopy fourm. He passes less then 50 feet over the crowd. The jump turned out great.. but look at the video and think what would have happened if he had leveled out a bit sooner in the hook.

Just so I put it out there... In reference to the demo video clip that I posted. We were briefed before the jump that theere were to be no hook turns below 200 feet and that the FAA would be at the demo, so don't make any mistakes. I was the first one out and there was a cross wind at the landing area (I was the wind dummy). I flew as much into the wind as i could without cutting the landing area too short. I flew the canopy to the best of my ability, and at no point did I put anyone in danger... i had plenty of time to pull up if I was too low (which wasn't even close to an issue), and I put it exactly where I intended... on the "X".

My landing is not a perfect example of anything but a successful demo landing... and if I had "leveled out a bit sooner", I would have overshot the target by maybe 75 feet.

Every single person who landed at that demo passsed over the crowd below 50 feet, and there were 23 of us both days, including swoopers, crew, a huge flag, and a tandem. Every one was safe, the crowd loved, and we all hada blast. Only people with the appropriate skill level participated. We've been doing this demo for years.