mjosparky 3 #1 January 5, 2005 I remember when you turned in a 7711-2, Application for Certificate of Waiver or Authorization and a few days later you received a 7711-1, Certificate of Waiver or Authorization. A single form turned in and a single form returned. I just got one back for a jump into a small airport, not even a level 2 and it consisted of the 7711-1 and 10 pages, yes 10, of Special Provisions. 66 in all. What kind of monster have we created? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 January 5, 2005 Some canned replies to that are: 1. that's why we need tort reform. (Yeah. Reverse the trend of a million lawyers by voting.) 2. if you don't like it, move to another country. However, I commiserate. Sometime not too long ago, U.S. citizens figured an additional inalienable right not formally recognized by the U.S. Constitution, but extant nonetheless, is the right to sue anyone for anything bad happening pursuant to the respondent's involvement. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #3 January 5, 2005 Quote What kind of monster have we created? Quote We do you mean "WE"? ...Most of "US" have never screwed the pooch on a demo, thank those that have! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #4 January 5, 2005 QuoteSome canned replies to that are: 1. that's why we need tort reform. (Yeah. Reverse the trend of a million lawyers by voting.) 2. if you don't like it, move to another country. However, I commiserate. Sometime not too long ago, U.S. citizens figured an additional inalienable right not formally recognized by the U.S. Constitution, but extant nonetheless, is the right to sue anyone for anything bad happening pursuant to the respondent's involvement. Tort law and tort reform has been around since before you were born and will be around long after you are gone. The FAA has nothing to do with tort law. It has to do with mid level bureauerats justifying their job. Take it to Speaker Corner.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #5 January 5, 2005 QuoteQuote What kind of monster have we created? Quote We do you mean "WE"? ...Most of "US" have never screwed the pooch on a demo, thank those that have! You are right my friend, and when I make King, all this will change.SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #6 January 5, 2005 Quote and when I make King, all this will change. Quote "It's GOOD to be King!" ~Mel Brooks ...one of my favorite quotes! the other is... "Hell yes I can drive!" ~Billy Martin ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #7 January 6, 2005 How about having to explain to the issuing FSDO what those provisions mean? Or Having to bring a SIM's to their office and read each line of the applicable chapters for the C or D license and PRO rating? Our packets have had no less than 34 special provisions but no more than 50 for he last 9 years. But it is too much fun to let a few dead tree's stop us from doing it. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #8 January 6, 2005 So what exactly is covered in all those special provisions?NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #9 January 6, 2005 Depending on the region (there are some regional concernes, DC, Reagan Intl. etc) You get specifics like: ensure each jumper is briefed, ground control has control of the landing area, the A/C has proper communications (air to ground for the jump sight, to ATC, the assigned tower, etc.) They addres smoke, flags, CRW the landing area discriptions and sizes. Who can land in what type Demo sight (open field, stadium etc.) Hook turns are even defined and who can do them too. There are usually the same types of provisions included in all sets that do not apply (tacticle static line jumps on an air field are for the 82nd ABN DIV and the Phantom Brigade are the only ones doing those, I wont put a static line round mass exit into the Titans Stadium but they send the instructions any way). And the list goes on and on (some times). If you would like an actual set PM me I will send you one of the ones we just used. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #10 January 6, 2005 Thanks, I just wanted a rough idea... it'll be a while (well a year or so at least) before I attempt a PRO rating. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #11 January 6, 2005 Here is an idea. (for the PRO Rating) Some of us took many runs at it before it happened. Go ahead and start trying the accuracy. Talk to your DZO to do those hop and pops and have the S&TA that you'll ask to sign get a look at you now. When you have 450 or more jumps go ahead and start the predeclared process, take the written and get the practice on the flags, smoke, 7711-2/1 paper work and NOTAM filing. By the time you lagitamatly do all those things you'll have more than 500 and the experience to qualify ......and then the real learning begins! MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #12 January 6, 2005 Thanks again for the info... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdwhalen 0 #13 January 7, 2005 QuoteTort law and tort reform has been around since before you were born and will be around long after you are gone. The FAA has nothing to do with tort law. It has to do with mid level bureauerats justifying their job. Take it to Speaker Corner. My sentiments exactly. I have spoken with our FSDO office about the Special Provisions. I get the distinct impression that they have a lot of latitude in which special provisions they add to the authorizations. For instance, ours come with a provision about CRW. I asked him about this and he said he just includes that as one provision but if we want to do CRW just tell him and he will omit it. I haven't tried it yet but I think we could have some provisions excluded simply by asking."I have magic buttons ;)." skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckbrown 0 #14 January 7, 2005 Exactly. The special provisions aren't mandatory & the FSDO has the authority NOT to include them in the Certificate of Authorization. It all depends on the comfort level the FSDO has with the jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #15 January 7, 2005 QuoteExactly. The special provisions aren't mandatory & the FSDO has the authority NOT to include them in the Certificate of Authorization. It all depends on the comfort level the FSDO has with the jumpers. The problem with "comfort level" is the demo 7711-2 are almost always given to the "new guy" in the office and he doesn't have a clue about skydiving. To cover his ass he will ask for everything and include everything. It is our job to take the time to educate people and the local FSDO and practice good PR with them. Goes a long waySparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 January 8, 2005 Just my understanding of what the Nashville, Louisville, Roanoke, Maimi and Atlanta FSDO's have told me; Special Provisions are the rules we must follow for that jump (if the yissue them to you). Not following them means spending alot of money and time on court. The big thing is to get Ed Scott of USPA (the government relations rep) to work closer with the FAA's National Air Show coordniator, She is the one who "sets" and publishes the Special Provisions that the FSDO's send us. She basis a lot of her decisions on the SIM's and Ed's advice. The only probleme with USPA being the only one who talks to the FAA NASC is that the Provisions are pretty tight in using USPA BSR and License requirements as the only way in which you can perform. The line that used to be included in the FAR said a jumper could demonstrate his or her skill to the issuing authority. Now it is pretty hazy and almost always inerpreted as USPA license holders are the only ones who are able to satisfactorily show they have sufficient skill. I had our JAG Lawyer look at the provisions and as far as he is concerned they are Law for that jump, yes the FSDO can leave them out and then your ok, but any one you are sent is the law for you on that jump. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
chuckbrown 0 #14 January 7, 2005 Exactly. The special provisions aren't mandatory & the FSDO has the authority NOT to include them in the Certificate of Authorization. It all depends on the comfort level the FSDO has with the jumpers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #15 January 7, 2005 QuoteExactly. The special provisions aren't mandatory & the FSDO has the authority NOT to include them in the Certificate of Authorization. It all depends on the comfort level the FSDO has with the jumpers. The problem with "comfort level" is the demo 7711-2 are almost always given to the "new guy" in the office and he doesn't have a clue about skydiving. To cover his ass he will ask for everything and include everything. It is our job to take the time to educate people and the local FSDO and practice good PR with them. Goes a long waySparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #16 January 8, 2005 Just my understanding of what the Nashville, Louisville, Roanoke, Maimi and Atlanta FSDO's have told me; Special Provisions are the rules we must follow for that jump (if the yissue them to you). Not following them means spending alot of money and time on court. The big thing is to get Ed Scott of USPA (the government relations rep) to work closer with the FAA's National Air Show coordniator, She is the one who "sets" and publishes the Special Provisions that the FSDO's send us. She basis a lot of her decisions on the SIM's and Ed's advice. The only probleme with USPA being the only one who talks to the FAA NASC is that the Provisions are pretty tight in using USPA BSR and License requirements as the only way in which you can perform. The line that used to be included in the FAR said a jumper could demonstrate his or her skill to the issuing authority. Now it is pretty hazy and almost always inerpreted as USPA license holders are the only ones who are able to satisfactorily show they have sufficient skill. I had our JAG Lawyer look at the provisions and as far as he is concerned they are Law for that jump, yes the FSDO can leave them out and then your ok, but any one you are sent is the law for you on that jump. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
