Jumping out of Cessna with regular doors. Possible? Issues?

[Foursprouts 0]

If you want to do it and stay legal, taking the door off is not as simple as taking the door off. You need to have suplements added to the flight manual (POH) and approved by the FAA. New weight and balance done, not just the pilot figuring it out, it has to be weighed by an A&P and approved figures kept in the aircraft. If you did it with the door on you would have to make sure the 172 is approved to have the door opened in flight (I doubt it is) and also give the pilot a rig to wear. It is the pilot who will take all responsibility if the shit hits the fan so make sure he understands what he is getting himself into. You also said that the 172 stalls at 60, is that the speed you plan to fly to make it easier to open the door. If it is you need to think that when you push the door open it will make the plane slow down a lot. Because the door acts like a big rudder if the pilot did stall it he would probably also end up spining it if you had the door open wide enough to get out. Jump flying is not as easy as flying along and letting people jump out, it makes it harder if you also have a door being opened. You could probably do it and have a great jump but an inexperienced jumper and an inexperienced pilot are probably not the best idea.

Edited to include:

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The pilot only needs to ensure that it is done in compliance with any proceedures listed in the Operating Handbook. In some planes, 172 included, the pilot needs to wear an approved parachute if the door is removed.

I went to pick a 182 up after having an inflight door fitted and had to wait for 5 hours whilst the FAA inspector checked all the paperwork and placards.
I think you will find that if a door is intentionaly opened in flight every occupant must wear a parachute. That goes for every type of aircraft operated under part 91 not just some.

I would still be happy to let someone jump out of a 172 I was flying if I knew them and it was in the US. The above is just things to consider.

[Dr.Strangelove 0]

does the pilot holding his window open while in the slip create enough positive pressure to hold the door open? (for emergency knowledge of course:) )

[LearningTOfly 0]

There seems to be alot of back and forth as to the technique or feasability of exiting something with it's door on. Here's the opinion of a pilot:

It's possible, and not hard either. The stall is no problem so long as the pilot pays attention to what he's doing. A 172 can fly well below 60- but really 60 is all you need for the door to be pushed open enough. 172's don't like to spin, either, so unless the wife and kid are in the back seat, that's a non-issue. A bit of right rudder helps to break up the flow over the right side and ease the pressure on the door. Watch your leg straps as they catch on the door handle... make sure to remove them from the handle before leaving. Stomping on the right rudder while increasing forward pressure helps the exit go cleanly(pilot).
A good dive out works dandy. The door will close behind you, but not completely- just make sure that your foot leaves at about the same time as your left hand releases the door. Get a pin check from the pilot before leaving... hanging some nylon off the tail becomes a thoroughly embarassing situation for the pilot.

The motivation behind such a jump is what I am slightly skeptical about... for starters, being the only person jumping into the paintball game might get kindof lonely really fast. Jumping in with equiptment can get kinky. Jumping into the action and gettting your canopy all muddy can be frustrating. Do you plan to pack before the ceasefire is called off? I agree that it is a very romantic idea, but I'm a bit skeptical about it's feasability and whether it is really worthwhile. Think about it anyways...

As for the window thing... a simple application of right rudder works fine to relieve pressures- no window needed.
What sort of emergeny did you have in mind that the pilot would need to open his window in order to open the opposite door anyways? ...just wondering

[mjosparky 3]

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You are supposed to get approval for flight with door removed. I have never been checked on that, but it is almost an automatic process after asking for it.

Check AC 105-2C for a list of airplanes approved for flight with door removed. Most Cessna's are included. The pilot only needs to ensure that it is done in compliance with any proceedures listed in the Operating Handbook. In some planes, 172 included, the pilot needs to wear an approved parachute if the door is removed.

That is a list of planes that have been approved but each plane has to get its own approval. The requires a 337 form, STC, new weight and balance and proper placards added where needed.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Dr.Strangelove 0]

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What sort of emergeny did you have in mind that the pilot would need to open his window in order to open the opposite door anyways? ...just wondering

the "im going flying and my buddy wants a hopnpop" emergency. never flown a jumper so i don't know, but it seems a little positive pressure in the cabin might hold the door open.?

[killler 2]

There is no "337" needed to remove a door on a Cessna.... All that is needed is for the pilot to make a entry in the aircraft log that the door has been removed..... The pilot does "NOT" need to wear a rig to fly with the door removed.... The door "Falls" open with a slip to the right, Any pilot thats half a$$ good should know how to do it....

I don't know were some of the BS thats be posted in this thread comes from, But...... It's NOT from any pilot that knows anything about aircraft and flight... And NOT from any skydiver thats been around the block....

Just for the record..... 337's are for major repairs or alterations or adding parts that are not made or tested by the aircraft maker and change the way it works.... Cessna has approved the 100 class of aircraft for fight with the door removed....

killer.....

[mjosparky 3]

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There is no "337" needed to remove a door on a Cessna.... All that is needed is for the pilot to make a entry in the aircraft log that the door has been removed..... The pilot does "NOT" need to wear a rig to fly with the door removed.... The door "Falls" open with a slip to the right, Any pilot thats half a$$ good should know how to do it....

I don't know were some of the BS thats be posted in this thread comes from, But...... It's NOT from any pilot that knows anything about aircraft and flight... And NOT from any skydiver thats been around the block....

Just for the record..... 337's are for major repairs or alterations or adding parts that are not made or tested by the aircraft maker and change the way it works.... Cessna has approved the 100 class of aircraft for fight with the door removed....

killer.....

That "BS" comes from the FAA.

“1. What is a supplemental type certificate?

A supplemental type certificate (STC) is a type certificate issued when an applicant has received FAA approval to modify an aircraft from its original design. The supplemental type certificate, which incorporates by reference the related type certificate, approves not only the modification but how that modification affects the original design.”

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/

Cessna’s were not type certificated for flight with door removed. And the entry in the logs your mention is made by an A&P not the pilot.

Small details, I know, but they are what make it legal.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Thunderbow 1]

I don't know much of the technical stuff but I do know I have done it and the biggest problem in turning a pleasure/weekend plane into a jump plane by taking the door off is all of the sand and crap that blows around. Goggles for everyone including the pilot are called for.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lord, let me be the person my dog thinks I am.

[killler 2]

The pilot may remove the door on a cessna aircraft.... All 100 class cessna aircraft are ok'd from cessna for flight with the door removed and also with the windows open..... Again ...... There is "NO" 337 needed to remove or fly with the door removed....

Killer......

PS.... Pilots are allowed to do many things on a aircraft and make entries in the aircraft logs... Like after doing a oil change......

[Dr.Strangelove 0]

ok, finding no STC listed. i have a 150, and there is no mention in the poh either way. do i need an stc to take the doors off tomorrow and go fly?

[mjosparky 3]

Here are just 3 of the STC's on Cessna 100 series aircraft for door removal that you say are not needed. (see attachment)

The list is long and includes all Makes of aircraft. As I posted before:

"A supplemental type certificate (STC) is a type certificate issued when an applicant has received FAA approval to modify an aircraft from its original design. The supplemental type certificate, which incorporates by reference the related type certificate, approves not only the modification but how that modification affects the original design.”

These are the FAA's words not mine. They say a 337 is needed. If you don't agree, take it up with them.

A pilot can not add or remove anything to an aircraft, it must be an A&P unless the pilot is the builder of a homebuilt. Pilots are certificated to fly airplanes not work on them. If they were certificated to work on them they would be called mechanics.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Dr.Strangelove 0]

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Here are just 3 of the STC's on Cessna 100 series aircraft for door removal that you say are not needed. (see attachment).....

did these come from faa.gov?

[mjosparky 3]

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Here are just 3 of the STC's on Cessna 100 series aircraft for door removal that you say are not needed. (see attachment).....

did these come from faa.gov?

They came from this site. Supplemental Type Certificates

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[EDYDO 0]

Hey Guys, (not just directed at you, Sparky) This is starting to sound WAY too complicated and it isn't. I would hate to see someone miss jumps because they thought it too confusing or difficult.

1. Approval for flight with door removed (FSDO) Since the planes in question are already on the list, it is as easy as asking FSDO and getting your mechanic to sign it off. (Sometimes I don't bother. That's between me and the pilot and sometimes I am the pilot.)

2. Get permission from airport management (or other property owner.)

3. Notify ATC one hour in advance (I thought this was a NOTAM, but maybe not.)

4. Radio contact with ATC before the jump.

Now go jump. It isn't a difficult process.

Ed

I almost forgot, do you know how to spot??? (especially not directed at you, Sparky)

[Dr.Strangelove 0]

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I almost forgot, do you know how to spot??? (especially not directed at you, Sparky)

sure....jumping in oklahoma, 1000 acre open field, no fences.

[Kris 0]

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sure....jumping in oklahoma, 1000 acre open field, no fences.

That describes more than one DZ here in OK.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[mjosparky 3]

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Hey Guys, (not just directed at you, Sparky) This is starting to sound WAY too complicated and it isn't. I would hate to see someone miss jumps because they thought it too confusing or difficult.

You are right, it is not that difficult to do it right. Why would someone suggest to a new jumper to do it wrong.

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and getting your mechanic to sign it off.

And leaving this little item out is just asking for trouble.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

>This is starting to sound WAY too complicated and it isn't. I would hate to
>see someone miss jumps because they thought it too confusing or difficult.

I agree. It's not hard to make such a jump both safe and legal. It would be a mistake to skip these (pretty simple) steps just because someone thought it would be hard to do.

[poppenhager 1]

You can jump out of a 172 with the door on and seat in,I do it all the time and it is a pain in the ass.If your not careful the pilot will be pissed off because you rippped the door handle off and when the door SLAMMED the window cracked!!!

POP D47

[poppenhager 1]

You can take the door off your 150 and fly it without the STC if you are solo or with a passenger that is belted to the seat.For jumping the STC is needed and seat can be removed.All occupants must wear parachutes.

POP D47

[scdrnr 0]

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These are the FAA's words not mine. They say a 337 is needed. If you don't agree, take it up with them.

A pilot can not add or remove anything to an aircraft, it must be an A&P unless the pilot is the builder of a homebuilt. Pilots are certificated to fly airplanes not work on them. If they were certificated to work on them they would be called mechanics.

There sure is a lot of confusion on this issue, I certainly don't know all the answers (and neither will the FSDO), but in my experience, I am aware of several methods for removing equipment.

First, FAR 43 has a section on 32 procedures that may be performed and logged by a certificated pilot, many are more involved than you may expect. But in any case, a pilot can remove equipment provided:
1. It isn't specifically required by the type certificate equipment list.
2. It isn't required by Part 91 minimum equipment for the applicable DAY-NIGHT-VFR-IFR category.
3. It isn't required by an AD.
4. It doesn't appreciably affect the flight characteristics of the aircraft.

I believe that Cessna doors fall under those four criteria, in fact, when I worked for a Part 135 operation, I routinely, as PIC, removed seats and doors to convert from passenger to cargo drop configuration (without an approved MEL), and simply entered the weights and moments on my loading schedule. Part 91 operators may do weight and balance in their heads.

Secondly, some aircraft have manufacturer supplied aircraft flight manual supplements that reference maintenence documents for door removal. In this case, as A&P may remove the door, in compliance with the service documents and the plane may be operated pursuant to the AFM supplement.

Finally, you can do the alteration method and have an IA file a 337. This is absolutely required when adding things like steps, floater-bars, jump doors, etc, and I think this is why people think it is required for door removal.

An STC is just one method of supplying approved data for the 337. Previously approved 337's, manufacturer instructions, or field approval (requires visit from an AWI or DAR) are other methods of approving a 337.

In response to another post: Part 91 does not have any rules against intentionally opening doors in flight, and the only requirements for pilots to wear parachutes are for aerobatic flight (with some exceptions). Any requirements for emergency rigs, guard rails, or other safety restraints, are contained in the AFM supplement or the FSDO's imposed limitations on a case by case basis, and they don't apply to all aircraft.

FAA rules are ridiculously complicated, often ambigous, and frequently contradictory. Ultimately, most inspectors will interpret the regs to suit their needs, not yours, and there isn't really anything that even resembles "due process" at the FAA. If they want to screw you, they will, whether or not your paperwork is in order, so its understandable that many pilots/mechanics/riggers aviod contact with the FSDO at all costs. Some FSDO's are more "practical" than others. YMMV.