freeasabird 0 #1 May 22, 2004 I am currently working on my "A" license requirements and have only a few items to go on the proficiency card. One area I am having difficulty in is #2 on the card: "Dive a minimum of 100 feet after another jumper and dock safely without assistance from the other jumper (two)." I mostly do dive outs from a C206 and seem to get over the hill OK. My horizontal tracking is fine as well. The problem is that I seem to fall too fast and by the time I reach the other jumper (horizontally), I am well below him/her and cannot slow my vertical speed any to catch back "up". I have been told by other experienced jumpers that I probably am falling at about 125 mph in a nuetral boxman postition. I am 5'-11" and 180 lbs with a medium frame. I fly with a rental jumpsuit which has no grips and wears slightly baggy on me. Can anyone offer some advice on controlling vertical speed with body positioning so that I might overcome this annoying hurdle of mine? Thanks!----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #2 May 22, 2004 maybe try not to arch too much when doing your forward motion. Normally you will have your head quite up (to keep visual contact), which will tend to arch your back. So maybe if you flatten a bit your body and shoulders, it can help. And ask the other person to give some fall rate...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #3 May 22, 2004 >Can anyone offer some advice on controlling vertical speed with body > positioning so that I might overcome this annoying hurdle of mine? 1. Get video. Many people who try to fall slowly tuck their feet up and drop their knees - not good. You want to be absolutely flat, like Wile E Coyote after he hits the ground. 2. Watch your arms. If you have booties they should be ahead of you, almost like superman. (This counteracts the additional drag of your booties.) Get your feet twisted to the sides so you can use the sides of your booties. If you don't have booties, arms should be out at about a 45 degree angle. 3. Do not look up! If you find yourself low, turn 90 degrees to the base, tilt your head _down_ and look sideways at the base. If you look up you end up arching harder. 4. Get a coach who can match your fallrate and gradually slow down. If you can keep up with him and then you suddenly go catastrophically low, it's likely you're looking up and arching more or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #4 May 22, 2004 Quote 3. Do not look up! If you find yourself low, turn 90 degrees to the base, tilt your head _down_ and look sideways at the base. If you look up you end up arching harder. My co-flyers did say that I was looking up and seemed to drop quicker when doing so. Next time I will try the turn 90/head down thing and see if that helps. Wild E. Coyote sounds good, too! Thanks for the tips!!!----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tphilpin 0 #5 May 22, 2004 Hi Don, Let me make a few suggestions based on two scenarios. Case 1. You perform a linked exit with another jumper and after coming off the hill, you break grips and fly inches apart. If you find you are falling away from the other jumper, check to be sure you a flying in a strong neutral boxman position 90 degree bends in the arms and lower legs extended into the air stream. Your arch should be in the middle of your range, so you have range to flatten it or arch more to make small adjustments. If you body position is good, and you still fall away, you simply have a jumpsuit problem. I suspect your suit is undersized, especially lacking grippers, and you may compensate for it simply by wearing an xl or xxl t-shirt over your suit. In extreme cases, a sweatshirt will be needed. If this solves the problem, a jumpsuit designed for your body size and weight is in order. Caveat: Check to make sure your partner is not the problem!!! Case 2: If you can fall without grips with your partner, but sink out on your horizontal approach I would check your technique: You should not be bringing your arms in to generate forward movement but rather extending your lower legs. To generate forward movement some of the air normally supporting you vertically gets deflected to generate forward movement. As a result, less air remains to sustain your old fall rate on the vertical axis and you will sink relative to the stable partner. With proper technique you will be able to move horizontally without increasing your fall rate. Extending your lower legs adds to your surface area while withdrawing your arms does not. The additional surface area compensates for the deflected air and your fall rate will not increase. Good luck, Tony WT04 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nightjumps 1 #6 May 22, 2004 This is not uncommon and can be frustrating. It is both a matter of timing and body position. The boxman position with a rental suit is probably not helping. I really encourage you to get with an Instructor or Coach and have them teach you how to "stairstep" down. You can read ten things on here and all of them good, but spend ten dives trying each one when there has to be someone who's seen you, your body position, fallrate, etc. that can modify and tweak you to making it in just a jump or two. Good Luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #7 May 22, 2004 QuoteHi Don, Let me make a few suggestions based on two scenarios. Case 1. You perform a linked exit with another jumper and after coming off the hill, you break grips and fly inches apart. If you find you are falling away from the other jumper, check to be sure you a flying in a strong neutral boxman position 90 degree bends in the arms and lower legs extended into the air stream. Thanks Tony. I have tried a link exit before with one other jumper. He had similar gear (except his suit had grips) and he was of similar build. We got over the hill fine, broke apart, and I was gone! The other jumper said he was as tight as he could get but could not get enough vertical speed to catch me. He commented that I "fell like a rock". On another jump I did a 4-way, non-linked exit (sorry for incorrect terminology) with very experienced jumpers. I was to fly base and just be stable and they were to catch me and link up. They too were somewhat perplexed at my fast fall rate. Two of them had a little trouble catching me as their exits were delayed a half second or so from mine. Nonetheless, they caught me and we rode the 4-way out for a couple thousand feet (a first for me - case of beer). I think I'll go on a diet. Seriously though, I appreciate everyone's advice and am anxious to try out these tips tomorrow - if those damn winds don't keep me grounded!----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vdschoor 0 #8 May 22, 2004 QuoteI think I'll go on a diet. Seriously though, I appreciate everyone's advice and am anxious to try out these tips tomorrow - if those damn winds don't keep me grounded! Jump 1 on 1 with someone experienced tomorrow, like an instructor or a coach, you might be arching pretty hard even though you think you are not. It could be many things, as written up above the best way is to get someone to go with you and check it out. Good luck, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the winds for ya Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tphilpin 0 #9 May 22, 2004 Don, With that additional information, I definitely suggest the XXL Tshirt trick or even sweatshirt over your jumpsuit. That will even things out. Your arch may still need to be fine tuned. Strive for the proper boxman rather than an all out "get back stable" arch you may have used in AFF. Your arch should be in the middle of your range, make sure you can arch more, the sweatshirt may put this to the test. Arm position is also important. Many instructors encourage their student to fly in a "lazy W" or "think of string connecting your hands going in one ear and out the other". This is not a good advanced position for maximum controllability. Arms should have 90 bends and hands ahead of your ears, so you can dock without reaching for another's grips and not bump heads. Instructors sometimes give students bad habits that have to be corrected later. Blue Skies, T Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #10 May 22, 2004 ***Many instructors encourage their student to fly in a "lazy W" or "think of string connecting your hands going in one ear and out the other". Actually, I do recall one of the instructors telling me to do just that. I can't remember his reasoning, but the position has stuck and I think that is probably what my arms are doing. By the way, the winds today in Central Illinois are 22 with gusts at 30 something. No student jumping today I guess! (But I would rather stay grounded then get grounded by the wind - if you know what I mean.) Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #11 May 24, 2004 Putting on a T-shirt or sweatshirt over your jumpsuit is a great trick and I've used it myself, but I don't think it is good advice for a student. T-shirts have the bad habit of blowing up over handles, which an experienced jumper may be able to handle, but would endanger a student. freeasabird, without seeing you fly, it is hard to guess why you are falling so fast, but you are probably just arching too hard. You need to jump with a coach or instructor who can critique your body position, preferably someone with a lot of RW experience. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #12 May 30, 2004 Quotemaybe try not to arch too much when doing your forward motion. Normally you will have your head quite up (to keep visual contact), which will tend to arch your back. So maybe if you flatten a bit your body and shoulders, it can help. And ask the other person to give some fall rate... Did 2 jumps yesterday with an instructor. First time he varied his fall rate and watched to see if I could match. Although I felt like I was de-arching to slow down, he said my body position did not change at all?!? So next time out (same instructor) we tried again. This time he noticed some attempt on my part to slow down. It was subtle, but it was there. He recommended getting one of those exercise balls and laying belly down on it to get a feel for de-arching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #13 May 31, 2004 Quote I have been told by other experienced jumpers that I probably am falling at about 125 mph in a nuetral boxman postition. Come to Skydive Chicago, you'll fit right in.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #14 May 31, 2004 QuoteCome to Skydive Chicago, you'll fit right in. I plan on doing that soon. I'm right below you here in big-time Central Illinois. As soon as I get my "A", I'll trip on up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #15 June 1, 2004 > He recommended getting one of those exercise balls and laying >belly down on it to get a feel for de-arching. There's a simpler method. Lie on the ground spread-eagle and try to lift your butt off the ground with just your fingers and toes. You probably won't be able to do it, but those are the muscles you need to work to get a dearch in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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tphilpin 0 #5 May 22, 2004 Hi Don, Let me make a few suggestions based on two scenarios. Case 1. You perform a linked exit with another jumper and after coming off the hill, you break grips and fly inches apart. If you find you are falling away from the other jumper, check to be sure you a flying in a strong neutral boxman position 90 degree bends in the arms and lower legs extended into the air stream. Your arch should be in the middle of your range, so you have range to flatten it or arch more to make small adjustments. If you body position is good, and you still fall away, you simply have a jumpsuit problem. I suspect your suit is undersized, especially lacking grippers, and you may compensate for it simply by wearing an xl or xxl t-shirt over your suit. In extreme cases, a sweatshirt will be needed. If this solves the problem, a jumpsuit designed for your body size and weight is in order. Caveat: Check to make sure your partner is not the problem!!! Case 2: If you can fall without grips with your partner, but sink out on your horizontal approach I would check your technique: You should not be bringing your arms in to generate forward movement but rather extending your lower legs. To generate forward movement some of the air normally supporting you vertically gets deflected to generate forward movement. As a result, less air remains to sustain your old fall rate on the vertical axis and you will sink relative to the stable partner. With proper technique you will be able to move horizontally without increasing your fall rate. Extending your lower legs adds to your surface area while withdrawing your arms does not. The additional surface area compensates for the deflected air and your fall rate will not increase. Good luck, Tony WT04 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #6 May 22, 2004 This is not uncommon and can be frustrating. It is both a matter of timing and body position. The boxman position with a rental suit is probably not helping. I really encourage you to get with an Instructor or Coach and have them teach you how to "stairstep" down. You can read ten things on here and all of them good, but spend ten dives trying each one when there has to be someone who's seen you, your body position, fallrate, etc. that can modify and tweak you to making it in just a jump or two. Good Luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #7 May 22, 2004 QuoteHi Don, Let me make a few suggestions based on two scenarios. Case 1. You perform a linked exit with another jumper and after coming off the hill, you break grips and fly inches apart. If you find you are falling away from the other jumper, check to be sure you a flying in a strong neutral boxman position 90 degree bends in the arms and lower legs extended into the air stream. Thanks Tony. I have tried a link exit before with one other jumper. He had similar gear (except his suit had grips) and he was of similar build. We got over the hill fine, broke apart, and I was gone! The other jumper said he was as tight as he could get but could not get enough vertical speed to catch me. He commented that I "fell like a rock". On another jump I did a 4-way, non-linked exit (sorry for incorrect terminology) with very experienced jumpers. I was to fly base and just be stable and they were to catch me and link up. They too were somewhat perplexed at my fast fall rate. Two of them had a little trouble catching me as their exits were delayed a half second or so from mine. Nonetheless, they caught me and we rode the 4-way out for a couple thousand feet (a first for me - case of beer). I think I'll go on a diet. Seriously though, I appreciate everyone's advice and am anxious to try out these tips tomorrow - if those damn winds don't keep me grounded!----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vdschoor 0 #8 May 22, 2004 QuoteI think I'll go on a diet. Seriously though, I appreciate everyone's advice and am anxious to try out these tips tomorrow - if those damn winds don't keep me grounded! Jump 1 on 1 with someone experienced tomorrow, like an instructor or a coach, you might be arching pretty hard even though you think you are not. It could be many things, as written up above the best way is to get someone to go with you and check it out. Good luck, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the winds for ya Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tphilpin 0 #9 May 22, 2004 Don, With that additional information, I definitely suggest the XXL Tshirt trick or even sweatshirt over your jumpsuit. That will even things out. Your arch may still need to be fine tuned. Strive for the proper boxman rather than an all out "get back stable" arch you may have used in AFF. Your arch should be in the middle of your range, make sure you can arch more, the sweatshirt may put this to the test. Arm position is also important. Many instructors encourage their student to fly in a "lazy W" or "think of string connecting your hands going in one ear and out the other". This is not a good advanced position for maximum controllability. Arms should have 90 bends and hands ahead of your ears, so you can dock without reaching for another's grips and not bump heads. Instructors sometimes give students bad habits that have to be corrected later. Blue Skies, T Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #10 May 22, 2004 ***Many instructors encourage their student to fly in a "lazy W" or "think of string connecting your hands going in one ear and out the other". Actually, I do recall one of the instructors telling me to do just that. I can't remember his reasoning, but the position has stuck and I think that is probably what my arms are doing. By the way, the winds today in Central Illinois are 22 with gusts at 30 something. No student jumping today I guess! (But I would rather stay grounded then get grounded by the wind - if you know what I mean.) Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #11 May 24, 2004 Putting on a T-shirt or sweatshirt over your jumpsuit is a great trick and I've used it myself, but I don't think it is good advice for a student. T-shirts have the bad habit of blowing up over handles, which an experienced jumper may be able to handle, but would endanger a student. freeasabird, without seeing you fly, it is hard to guess why you are falling so fast, but you are probably just arching too hard. You need to jump with a coach or instructor who can critique your body position, preferably someone with a lot of RW experience. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #12 May 30, 2004 Quotemaybe try not to arch too much when doing your forward motion. Normally you will have your head quite up (to keep visual contact), which will tend to arch your back. So maybe if you flatten a bit your body and shoulders, it can help. And ask the other person to give some fall rate... Did 2 jumps yesterday with an instructor. First time he varied his fall rate and watched to see if I could match. Although I felt like I was de-arching to slow down, he said my body position did not change at all?!? So next time out (same instructor) we tried again. This time he noticed some attempt on my part to slow down. It was subtle, but it was there. He recommended getting one of those exercise balls and laying belly down on it to get a feel for de-arching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #13 May 31, 2004 Quote I have been told by other experienced jumpers that I probably am falling at about 125 mph in a nuetral boxman postition. Come to Skydive Chicago, you'll fit right in.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeasabird 0 #14 May 31, 2004 QuoteCome to Skydive Chicago, you'll fit right in. I plan on doing that soon. I'm right below you here in big-time Central Illinois. As soon as I get my "A", I'll trip on up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #15 June 1, 2004 > He recommended getting one of those exercise balls and laying >belly down on it to get a feel for de-arching. There's a simpler method. Lie on the ground spread-eagle and try to lift your butt off the ground with just your fingers and toes. You probably won't be able to do it, but those are the muscles you need to work to get a dearch in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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vdschoor 0 #8 May 22, 2004 QuoteI think I'll go on a diet. Seriously though, I appreciate everyone's advice and am anxious to try out these tips tomorrow - if those damn winds don't keep me grounded! Jump 1 on 1 with someone experienced tomorrow, like an instructor or a coach, you might be arching pretty hard even though you think you are not. It could be many things, as written up above the best way is to get someone to go with you and check it out. Good luck, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the winds for ya Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tphilpin 0 #9 May 22, 2004 Don, With that additional information, I definitely suggest the XXL Tshirt trick or even sweatshirt over your jumpsuit. That will even things out. Your arch may still need to be fine tuned. Strive for the proper boxman rather than an all out "get back stable" arch you may have used in AFF. Your arch should be in the middle of your range, make sure you can arch more, the sweatshirt may put this to the test. Arm position is also important. Many instructors encourage their student to fly in a "lazy W" or "think of string connecting your hands going in one ear and out the other". This is not a good advanced position for maximum controllability. Arms should have 90 bends and hands ahead of your ears, so you can dock without reaching for another's grips and not bump heads. Instructors sometimes give students bad habits that have to be corrected later. Blue Skies, T Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #10 May 22, 2004 ***Many instructors encourage their student to fly in a "lazy W" or "think of string connecting your hands going in one ear and out the other". Actually, I do recall one of the instructors telling me to do just that. I can't remember his reasoning, but the position has stuck and I think that is probably what my arms are doing. By the way, the winds today in Central Illinois are 22 with gusts at 30 something. No student jumping today I guess! (But I would rather stay grounded then get grounded by the wind - if you know what I mean.) Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #11 May 24, 2004 Putting on a T-shirt or sweatshirt over your jumpsuit is a great trick and I've used it myself, but I don't think it is good advice for a student. T-shirts have the bad habit of blowing up over handles, which an experienced jumper may be able to handle, but would endanger a student. freeasabird, without seeing you fly, it is hard to guess why you are falling so fast, but you are probably just arching too hard. You need to jump with a coach or instructor who can critique your body position, preferably someone with a lot of RW experience. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #12 May 30, 2004 Quotemaybe try not to arch too much when doing your forward motion. Normally you will have your head quite up (to keep visual contact), which will tend to arch your back. So maybe if you flatten a bit your body and shoulders, it can help. And ask the other person to give some fall rate... Did 2 jumps yesterday with an instructor. First time he varied his fall rate and watched to see if I could match. Although I felt like I was de-arching to slow down, he said my body position did not change at all?!? So next time out (same instructor) we tried again. This time he noticed some attempt on my part to slow down. It was subtle, but it was there. He recommended getting one of those exercise balls and laying belly down on it to get a feel for de-arching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #13 May 31, 2004 Quote I have been told by other experienced jumpers that I probably am falling at about 125 mph in a nuetral boxman postition. Come to Skydive Chicago, you'll fit right in.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #14 May 31, 2004 QuoteCome to Skydive Chicago, you'll fit right in. I plan on doing that soon. I'm right below you here in big-time Central Illinois. As soon as I get my "A", I'll trip on up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #15 June 1, 2004 > He recommended getting one of those exercise balls and laying >belly down on it to get a feel for de-arching. There's a simpler method. Lie on the ground spread-eagle and try to lift your butt off the ground with just your fingers and toes. You probably won't be able to do it, but those are the muscles you need to work to get a dearch in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
