Denver's mayor jumps without chute

[flyangel2 2]

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In Reply To
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So everything that happens in the movie Point Break is true because it's on film?

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I think that is one of the most odd statements I've read in this community.

Well it seemed to have gotten your attention

I was trying to point out how silly some of the statements made here were in reference to the Mayor making it look like he had done a solo skydive.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[pchapman 261]

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How anyone could consider this a lie is a bit beyond me. If he made the commercial for skydivers, you might have a point, but the majority of the people watching that commercial couldn't care less about whether he's a student or licensed skydiver.

In other words, deception is OK if most people don't notice it?

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It's entertainment, folks! And advertisement is engineered to garner attention and entertain for the most part. Obviously the ad worked; people are discussing it and talking about it.

That was a nice defence of entertainment.

But the video is still massively untruthful -- a fabrication, a lie, deliberately hoodwinking and deceiving people.

It wasn't done in a style where it was obvious it was all a humour piece and a studio job -- like showing a video of him hanging in a harness from a crane, while a fan blows in his face.

The video is of those things where a politician can try to weasel out and say that it was truthful simply because they didn't specifically claim anything untruthful in writing. Words overlaid on the video stated something like "Actually John H..., Actually 13000 feet" during the tandem freefall with everything but John edited out. Technically correct.

Other scenes show a full sequence of events, John by the aircraft with a rig on his shoulder, John starting out the door of the airplane, the freefall, a solo jumper with the same solo rig and clothing deploying, and so on.

Technically, they never specifically claimed that the other jumpers were John, or that he was actually going to jump with the rig he was wearing, nor that they had altered the video content.

They would claim innocence -- if people happen to believe his carefully crafted deception, to make it look like John was doing a solo skydive, so be it. (All this assumes John only actually did a tandem jump.)

It's still fraud.

I'm saying that in the general dictionary sense of intentional deception; I have no idea if it qualifies in a more legal sense, "intentional deception to cause a person to give up property or some lawful right" as one dictionary put it. Who knows if trying to take someone's vote through deception counts...

[LordRatner 0]

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One reply:

In other words, deception is OK if most people don't notice it?

Another reply:


That was a nice defence of entertainment.

But the video is still massively untruthful -- a fabrication, a lie, deliberately hoodwinking and deceiving people.

This is why the general population dislikes skydivers, rock climbers, and other fringe hobbies. They take themselves too seriously. Our hobby is not as important as you make it sound.

Face it, the commercial was in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM intended for the skydiving community. He does not once claim to be a skydiver, he does not talk about jumping, endorse a brand of container, promote a DZ (other than showing it), give a message on skydiving safety, or anything else related.

He used skydiving as an analogy for the economy of Denver. Thats it. Nothing else. You think it matters that there's a tandem instructor in the video? Get real.

I seriously doubt he would argue with your point. More likely, he'd wonder how anyone could be dense enough to take offense with the creative aspect of his commercial.

Oh ya, we're skydivers, it's only funny if it doesn't deal with our sport.

[DZJ 0]

To tell the truth, I'm a little puzzled by your passion. The advert is hardly fraudulent or deceptive. I would bet that the vast majority of people who saw that ad would think, 'That guy jumped out of a plane'. The more critical might think 'That guy jumped out of a plane to illustrate his point'. How the jump was made is irrelevant and the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't even pause to think about it. The jump itself only really serves the same purpose as a graph or chart of statistics might.

If the jump itself was the point of his ad (or if his message had been something like, 'Hi, I'm really brave. Look at me jump out of this plane all on my own. Wouldn't you want someone brave like me for mayor?') then I think you'd have a point and your anger would be justified. As it stands though, I think you've overreacted a bit.

[Lindercles 0]

The question that keeps plaguing me about this is, if it's true that the vast majority of people watching the ad won't care if it's a tandem or solo skydive (as many people have pointed out) then why do the editing? Surely he thought he would gain something by pretending to be solo, or he wouldn't have done it, right?

[DZJ 0]

I'd have thought it would be a matter of clarity. Easier for the audience to see who's speaking and less distraction from other jumpers with only one person in shot (as opposed to him and a TI or 2 AFFI's). I don't see anything sinister in the editing.

[Lindercles 0]

I don't buy the clarity argument. I can definitely see how it achieves that end as well, but there are too many other details for that to be the only reason. It shows him in the plane with a full rig on, moving toward the door, and then somebody else with that same rig on exiting. That was obviously done to intentionally decieve people into thinking both images are him.

And then where they cleverly sandwich "actually John Hickenlooper, actually 13,000 feet" in between two shots that aren't him obviously intends to imply that all the freefall shots are him, without technically saying it.

I don't think it's a big deal, it's still a neat idea, and it's well done. And it doesn't particularly bother me, it just leaves me stratching my head as to why they decided to do it quite the way they did.

[davedlg 0]

Here's the original thread on the ad

And you can see the whole video of the ad here as well

[pchapman 261]

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He does not once claim to be a skydiver,

You're right that the ad is a good analogy for the economy of Denver. But what screwed it up was the caption "Actually John H...". Technically true but implying that he is something he isn't.

Not that being a skydiver is that exclusive an achievement. Is that where where I'm being too serious? -- "How dare a mere (maybe) 1-tandem near-whuffo compare himself to our exhalted ranks?"

If the video wasn't about puffing himself up -- and if people truly don't care about skydivers' picky distinctions between different types of jumps -- then the video could have shown him doing a tandem without the expense of editing. Or, the whole video could have shown a solo skydiver while he did a voice over about political issues.

As it was, he still carefully & deliberately took the time & spent the money to misrepresent himself in a manner that might imply he's daring, decisive, and not just a boring guy in an office. It's the type of deception that counts, not the magnitude. Perhaps I still look at this with too much of an engineer's viewpoint, not that of a marketer.

I don't expect that his lack of good aerodynamic body control skills should have an effect on his ability in office.

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Oh ya, we're skydivers, it's only funny if it doesn't deal with our sport.

Yeah, one has to be able to take a joke, even if one gnashes one's teeth at some factual error.

Interestingly, this video is still unlike most representations of skydiving that skydivers argue about, for it is one of the most realistic adverts I've seen that used a skydiving scene. Also, the video did not in any way make fun of skydiving or the people who participate in it!

[Lindsey 0]

But he still misrepresented himself in a manner that might imply he's daring, decisive, and not just a boring guy in an office.

He wasn't just in the office. He was skydiving.

At least he's not sitting around with a burr in his craw....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[377 21]

I am a lawyer and an engineer. I started the thread. The engineer part of me called bullshit on the doctored photo and video. The lawyer part of me could rationalize all day long about the lack of deceptive intent, lack of material harm, etc. Outside of the courtroom, the engineer in me prevails. The mayor should be ashamed. Why not have a video of him dressed in fatigues, visting a military training camp here and morphing it into him engaging in combat in Iraq or Afghanistan? Its either real or fake, period. Everything else is rationalization. BTW, I did like the video, it was very catchy.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[DZJ 0]

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The mayor should be ashamed. Why not have a video of him dressed in fatigues, visting a military training camp here and morphing it into him engaging in combat in Iraq or Afghanistan?

You really think that editing footage of a skydive (which he did do) is comparable to claiming to have served in Iraq/Afghanistan (which, I'm presuming, he didn't)? I come back to my earlier point - as the skydive isn't the point of the ad, but only illustration, what does it matter if the footage of it is edited?

[DSE 3]

I guess the reason the ad doesn't bother me and I *do* find it clever because as a full-time producer I live in the world of (apparently) deceiving viewers into believing what they see in order to express a message, whether that message is political in nature, or "boy meets girl and walks on water to prove it."
If some of you had *any* idea of how much fakery goes on at CNN, MSNBC, etc....you'd never watch again. And *that* is supposed to be news. Not entertainment.

As any good photographer will tell you, the less in the frame, the more interesting and compelling the image. A TI in the shot would have distracted from what the Mayor had to say. And wouldn't have been important to the message or focus. It's a dramatic piece, kudos to the agency that conceived it.
I'd bet the Mayor didn't consider one way or another that it would have been important to show or not show a TI, as a point of writing a story or message, the less in the frame the better. That's a straightforward, basic norm in *any* scene blocking.

I guess some would submit it's wrong to shoot television commercials the way Joe Jennings, Norman Kent, Tom Sanders, and others do as well, because they're generally aware that something will be done in post to create a different message/image than the original footage would have shown. Kinda like the BASE jump seen in the Tahoe commercial.

Can you believe the gall of Charlie Sheen in "Terminal Velocity? Actually having the balls to pretend he drove a car out of an airplane? At least the Mayor really jumped. Apparently more than once. Sheen/Kinski used a bluescreen and suspension system for several scenes.

Point Break, Drop Zone, Cutaway, Gypsy Moths, Ripcord, all the Bond films have faked scenes too, but they've brought a lot of positive attention to skydiving, and lots of people became skydivers as a result of the movies. Perhaps the Mayor's skydive will have a similar impact, even if only on the local enonomy.

[Lindercles 0]

One of the major sticking points here seems to be the intent of the video. Several people seem to think it's for entertainment purposes. It seems pretty clearly a political advertisement to me.

[tdog 0]

I honestly don't care if they edited the tandem instructor out or not...

It was him in freefall, and the text/caption/script never said anything that indicated he was the one to pull for himself....

I think we should be happy that our sport is getting positive press and marketing from this. More skydivers means more DZs, cheaper prices, more planes, better rigs, volume discounts, etc...

Step back a few feet and look at it from the standpoint of money, time, safety and message...

Clearly, AFF would have taken too much time to get him to the point he could hold heading, pull on his own, and remember his lines.

Having a tandem instructor also in the frame of the video would be distracting from the message...

This whole discussion, to me, is funny....

[DSE 3]

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Having a tandem instructor also in the frame of the video would be distracting from the message...

This whole discussion, to me, is funny....

I couldn't agree more.

What...? Political ads can't be entertaining? I'd submit that nearly all entertainment has a political point buried somewhere in there, so I've no problem with a political ad having some entertainment in there.

I hope the DZ's in Colorado are raking it in after that advertisement aired.

[mattaman 0]

I'll bet he protested that, politician lover, enabler, I came to this thread to laugh, its funny, theres some truth to my point, he probably is a little light in the groin area, Just like David Hasselhoff

Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen.

[LordRatner 0]

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This whole discussion, to me, is funny....

You're more level headed than I am. It went from funny to bothersome. I can't believe how many people are looking to be offended.