Bigways Of The Future?

[scotts 0]

This is a rhetorical question only.

In light of a recent incident, I have to ask this question.

What can to be done about the kids who are essentially 'growing up' in the tunnel and accumulating many, many hours of flying time? Everybody knows they're a badass in the tunnel, but they have little to no canopy experience. Then, all of a sudden, they want to get on a Bigway, and a hundred people will tell you how good they are, but no one knows if they ever stepped out of a plane.

What do you do?

[mjosparky 3]

It’s like everything else. You have to walk before you crawl. They are going to have to start small and gain the experience to go big. Tunnel time is one thing and free fall time is another. Many of the skills learned in the tunnel can be transferred to free fall but they can’t replace experience.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ouch 0]

Maybe ask the question again when there is a tunnel big enough to do 100-ways in?
Until then, it cannot possibly come close.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quite simply, the organizers have to carefully vet (if they don't already know) each potential participant's RW/bigway experience and credentials, as well as canopy skills and canopy choice, appropriate to the size of the formation. Tunnel time cannot replicate bigger-way RW, and obviously cannot replicate high-traffic canopy skills.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

What can to be done about the kids who are essentially 'growing up' in the tunnel

Then, all of a sudden, they want to get on a Bigway,

This is a non-issue. The easiest part of a big-way is the slot flying, and that's all you can practice in the tunnel. The swoop to the formation, the approach, the break-off, and the canopy control are the real skills you need to be 'safe' on a big-way, and the tunnel will not help you with any of those.

You cannot get on a big-way without a solid reference. Someone in charge has to know and trust someone who will vouch for you, and that trust doesn't come easy and isn't taken lightly. If you want a referral onto a big-way, you're going to have to earn it by proving yourself to someone.

[RichM 0]

ouch

Maybe ask the question again when there is a tunnel big enough to do 100-ways in?
Until then, it cannot possibly come close.

Makes no difference. Can they swoop and be in the same piece of sky at break off? Are they altitude aware. Can they track like a mofo. And then the really big one, how much experience do they have with 100 other canopies in the air and flying under canopy safely and predictably.

The question however is a really good one as it is probably happening now and will only increase

Rich M

[diablopilot 2]

Advanced skydiving is simply learning the lessons we've been seeing on the training side in the last 5 years. If the only criteria you judge by are freefall abilities, people WILL be dying under canopy at a greater rate.

We need more quantitative evaluation and certification of canopy skills in this sport.

This is unlikely to happen until instructors and instructor candidates are held to a higher global standard.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

I see the future and that future is that big ways will have wing loading requirements.

I can also see that people will start to take credentials into consideration.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mirage62 0]

Quote

I can also see that people will start to take credentials into consideration.

As it relates to big way "credentials". As anyone who does or follows big ways is aware there are currently two big way groups. P3 and BJ.

The P3 camp system, I believe as been a great way to bring in new talent - although at a pretty good cost, but it was never free. Now there is a define path of how to get to the big ways that wasn't around in the past. If you want it and have the $$ and can fly safe you will get on bigger formations.

But if we (big way jumpers) are honest than we have to agree that we now have a split talent situation.

What concerns me is that perhaps in the past the organizers had the power to say "This is the canopy wing loading you have to have to come to this event" (Maybe they never did but they could have)

I am NOT saying that it can't happen, but to do the mega size records both teams are beating the bushes pretty hard to bring the talent.

This will change in the near future as it isn't a secret that BJ has discussed backing down on his schedule, but for now it's tight and rules that some don't like (wing loading) may keep a group from getting the talent they are after.

Just thoughts.....

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Ron 7]

Quote

but for now it's tight and rules that some don't like (wing loading) may keep a group from getting the talent they are after.

Sure, but as we see more and more canopy deaths at big way events I think more pressure will be brought.

For example, I do not do bigways anymore. The last I did was in 1996. Why don't I do them? I don't like being in the air with that many people. I get pressured to do these events, get invited on several record attempts.... I am not going to do it. I know way to many people who are/were quite skilled that got hit. Bob Holler, Todd Hawkins.... the list goes on.

IF a big way organizer made everyone jump a 1.2 or less canopy AND had a sharp axe for anyone acting stupid under canopy... they MIGHT get me to get involved. But as long as people are jumping 2.0 loaded canopies and hook turning.... You will never see me on a big way.

And you can't have 'waivers' for the most skilled... Because everyone things they are the most skilled. And as another thread shows some people think they are better under their spot canopy and would be more dangerous under a bigger canopy.

Speaking for me.... Until the organizers make a lowish WL a requirement.... They will never see me at their events. I am fine with that. The size of the group I will jump with is directly related to the skill of the participants and the location.

I'll jump a two way with anyone... But if you want me to do a 40 way it better be with some highly skilled people in at an open DZ. And I am not doing 40+ ways anymore.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[potatoman 0]

Good point.

I reckon fairly large open areas, with more designated landing areas. Also lower the wingloading, for those downwind and crosswind landings.

One idea though, is to have people land in the same direction they were tracking in.

Tunnel time not to count towards experience. I have seen those flat fly like mofos and then cannot standup a 230.

I don't have such bigway experience, so just thoughts.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[feuergnom 22]

Quote

We need more initial and ongoing training, quantitative evaluation and certification of canopy skills in this sport.

FIFY
I think that canopy flying is the most important part and issue in skydiving. Students get to know the vital freefall-skills in 28 minutes/28 jumps. which other sport does anyone learn in less than half an hour???? let alone recognize and master the deeper aspects? that takes loads of time almost nobody wants to invest

I know that AFF s the world wide standard for training, but to be honest, it stems from a time of conservative flying and "docile" canopies. If "we" want any change in how people fly their wings, you'd have to come up with a whole new concept/method of training with lots of supervised canopy-control-lessons. unfortunatly I do not see this anywhere near.

my 0,02s

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[mirage62 0]

Ron makes good points, and has quit big ways for his on reasons.

FWIW I and many big way jumpers I know simply open and if at all possible fly straight ahead until we see NO ONE in front of us. Clear our air and make a gentle braking turn 180 and fly back toward the landing area.

Depending on your opening altitude it is very possible to have people coming from your right or left. In that case you carry your outbound flight farther before you make your 180.

You can also run into assign landing areas, or "do not cross boundaries" For example last years 225 record attempts I open between the two grass areas by the wind tunnel heading towards the road to the tunnel. The rule was for my sector to NOT cross that road. In that case I was forced to do a 180 at opening (away from the road). Once that was done I would be flying towards a lot of traffic which was not optimal but necessary. After the turn its was straight on. As far as landing turns I don't worry at all about the winds unless they are way up. It's 100% traffic.

Using the above w just about insure a walk in, until a truck gets you but has served me well on my +350 100 way or bigger jumps. Some people just are comfortable w traffic everywhere and feel landing close is important. I like these people ...... They are generally flying AWAY from me. :)

This isn't new stuff but it was passed on to me by a fellow big way jumper and I'd like to do the same.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little