plane nearly hits a diver

[bob.dino 0]

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ok, watch it and then dump your cookies

Huh?

What the hell does dumping cookies achieve if you've just had your system compromised?

If the link contains a trojan, don't visit it. Go see the video on skydivingmovies.com instead.

[godfrog 2]

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For instance, when I am with a student I do my best to make a good scan for traffic but dont actually lay down and look beneath the AC toward the horizon opposite the door. I have made it a habbit to look out the windows on the way to the door but hard to see well through the glare of the ultra clean windows (maybe not so clean).
Talk to your pilot too, he should be staying heads up with traffic, I stay in touch with atc and report jump run and ask for traffic in the area, atc is happy to report traffic in area and heading of that traffic if its going to put it in our vicinity.

Any pointers Tom?

It sounds like you are doing more than most people. The key is to keep your eyes out the windows on jumprun, and then to do a final check before you get out. If everybody in the airplane does that much, then the risk of collision goes way down. My only suggestion is to get your student involved too, which you may already be doing.

When I was doing tandems, I made it a point to check out the windows and get the student looking outside too, even on the first jump. It wasn't so much to have them check for traffic, but it at least got them started looking out the window. On later jumps we would cover the "why" of looking. Obviously that's a part of AFF.

It amazes me how many jumpers, especially on large airplanes, don't even glance out a window, much less actually look for traffic.
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Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

[PWScottIV 0]

Having recently finished AFF, I think you'd be wasting your breath, at a minimum, with most students. I assume, in some cases, students could forget the things that are most important (COA, Pull Priorites, etc), especially if they are fed things like that when they'll be leaving the plane soon. Wouldn't coached jumps be better for information like that?

Gravity Waits for No One.

[tombuch 0]

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Having recently finished AFF, I think you'd be wasting your breath, at a minimum, with most students. I assume, in some cases, students could forget the things that are most important (COA, Pull Priorites, etc), especially if they are fed things like that when they'll be leaving the plane soon. Wouldn't coached jumps be better for information like that?

You have a point. Introducing concepts like looking for traffic just before exit isn't such a great idea. However, spotting and checking for traffic is part of the AFF program, and must be covered before a student is approved to self supervise. If a student is approved for solo jumps, then he needs to understand how to spot, and how to clear the airspace. Typically, that is covered first with ground instruction, and then in-flight assistance with spotting before jump number 7. The USPA Integrated Student Program includes it in category "D."

Keep in mind that FAR 105.5 places the burden of clearing the airspace on the pilot and jumper, and makes no distinction between a student or instructor. If you are getting out of the airplane, then traffic avoidance is your responsibility. You must understand this regulation and accept the responsibility before you can be cleared for self supervision.
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Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[PWScottIV 0]

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Having recently finished AFF, I think you'd be wasting your breath, at a minimum, with most students. I assume, in some cases, students could forget the things that are most important (COA, Pull Priorites, etc), especially if they are fed things like that when they'll be leaving the plane soon. Wouldn't coached jumps be better for information like that?

You have a point. Introducing concepts like looking for traffic just before exit isn't such a great idea. However, spotting and checking for traffic is part of the AFF program, and must be covered before a student is approved to self supervise. If a student is approved for solo jumps, then he needs to understand how to spot, and how to clear the airspace. Typically, that is covered first with ground instruction, and then in-flight assistance with spotting before jump number 7. The USPA Integrated Student Program includes it in category "D."

Keep in mind that FAR 105.5 places the burden of clearing the airspace on the pilot and jumper, and makes no distinction between a student or instructor. If you are getting out of the airplane, then traffic avoidance is your responsibility. You must understand this regulation and accept the responsibility before you can be cleared for self supervision.
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I guess I wasn't specific enough in my reply. I totally agree with instructing spotting (including checking to make sure the airspace is clear while at the door), however, trying to get an AFF/AFP student to do that DURING freefall is ridiculous, IMO.
At least for myself, I had tunnel vision (or at least a high level of focus) to such a degree that I didn't even see other groups on the jump run (opening or in freefall) until my last AFF jump and then only while I was under canopy. Many times I wasn't even aware of what my instructors were doing. I was able to focus on doing what I needed to do in my dive flow and my COA because I had practiced before my jumps, but if someone told me I had to look out for airplanes while in freefall... I assume I either would have let it go in one ear and out the other, or I would have had a much more difficult time focusing on the important stuff...
With that said, I feel that basic spotting skills wouldn't be a bad idea to teach earlier than I was taught them... Even if it's just a VERY brief and basic discussion on the gound and then a quick look down before exiting. I didn't get any spotting instruction at all until AFF 5 (and that was only a glance down). I still havn't recieved any instruction on calculating the spot based on wind forcasts. I have only recieved basic instruction on clearing the airspace, mostly for group separation. Another somewhat disturbing experience I've had is that I've talked to three different AFFI's and I've recieved diffrent recommendations from all of them. One said it has to do more with time, one said 1000' visual horizontal separation, and another said about 45 degrees. The scary thing is, that I'm self-supervising and I really don't feel I've got a good feeling for which technique I should use... Any tips?

Gravity Waits for No One.

[tombuch 0]

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I still havn't recieved any instruction on calculating the spot based on wind forcasts. I have only recieved basic instruction on clearing the airspace, mostly for group separation. Another somewhat disturbing experience I've had is that I've talked to three different AFFI's and I've recieved diffrent recommendations from all of them. One said it has to do more with time, one said 1000' visual horizontal separation, and another said about 45 degrees. The scary thing is, that I'm self-supervising and I really don't feel I've got a good feeling for which technique I should use... Any tips?

Separation between groups has been hashed out here about a million times. The 45 degree rule doesn't work. Don't use it. Time is what matters. See Article 15 Waiting Between Groups at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php.

I'd also suggest you select an instructor you trust and ask for help understanding the math behind selecting an exit point. It's a great ground instruction segment that fits well with a bad weather day.

The best way for you to learn is to ask questions and actively seek out information. There are also a few great books available to help you. The Skydivers Handbook is one, and there are others too. That topic has also been discussed many times here.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[LearningTOfly 0]

A thought on Tom's first comment-

To begin with, I agree that specifically looking for aircraft needs to be a priority in spotting; especially as more and more planes take to the sky flown by pilots with less training (LSA's come to mind). In the end, it's your and my neck on the line when we exit... so it's worth the extra effort- if for nothing else, a little peace of mind.

But... I think that expecting to spot a majority of potential traffic conflicts from 13g' is a little on the unrealistic side.

To begin with... it takes an experienced eye to see another aircraft in the air, from the air, at all. Trying to spot a white dot moving through a smog filled sky is not a simple task. Often times, the conflict needs to be either highly contrasted, or close enough that the eye picks up the definite movement of the object.

Looking down from above gives an advantage that the viewer will have a larger, more contrasted, better illuminated object to focus on. A plus for spotters no doubt, but in reality it can help little- from experience it takes one of two things to see a small plane from two miles away in the current day atmosphere... intense concentration, or luck. Generally, the first pays off, if you know where to look. In a spotter's case though, they have no clues (radio) to work with, and thus know that they are looking for something- but do not know what direction to look, what distance to try to focus on, or what color/ shape they should expect to see. All they can do is use a 'quadrants' method to try to pick up movement. (Which might trun out to be a bus, or truck and trailer)

After all of this is said, there's the fact that the traffic that will be a collision concern is going to be anywhere from 3/4 of a mile (Light sport type) to 2 miles (120 mph cruise) or more horizontally at exit. Is it realistic to expect to see a small plane ten thousand feet below, at a horizontal range of two miles? Eagle eyes onboard very well may... but for the average jumper, traffic is a lesser concern when nearing the door. Spotting the traffic earlier is possible, but I think just as unlikely, as when you're climbing through 10 000' that traffic is anywhere from 3 to 10 miles away.

In the end... there's always luck to try... it's worked in the past and will work again- I mean, all of us who think about such traffic will keep our rubber necks- proactivity is more help than not; but the most helpful thing to teach students may just be to speak up when luck chooses them...

Happy New Year... time for the night to begin.

[LearningTOfly 0]

Oh... and just before I forget and the thought becomes lost forever...

There's also that curious point that a moving object which you are on a collision course with will have no relative motion to your eye...

...that's always fun to think about.

[PWScottIV 0]

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I still havn't recieved any instruction on calculating the spot based on wind forcasts. I have only recieved basic instruction on clearing the airspace, mostly for group separation. Another somewhat disturbing experience I've had is that I've talked to three different AFFI's and I've recieved diffrent recommendations from all of them. One said it has to do more with time, one said 1000' visual horizontal separation, and another said about 45 degrees. The scary thing is, that I'm self-supervising and I really don't feel I've got a good feeling for which technique I should use... Any tips?

Separation between groups has been hashed out here about a million times. The 45 degree rule doesn't work. Don't use it. Time is what matters. See Article 15 Waiting Between Groups at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php.

I'd also suggest you select an instructor you trust and ask for help understanding the math behind selecting an exit point. It's a great ground instruction segment that fits well with a bad weather day.

The best way for you to learn is to ask questions and actively seek out information. There are also a few great books available to help you. The Skydivers Handbook is one, and there are others too. That topic has also been discussed many times here.
.

Thanks for the info.

Gravity Waits for No One.