Aircraft Landing Pattern Over the DZ

[JeffSkydiver 0]

After the recent incident resulting in death at DeLand, I was amazed to find that the jump plane still flies over the airport and in the vicinity of the open canopies (ie, upwind of the landing area) on it's downwind leg.

I am no pilot so maybe there is some rule I am not aware of BUT - the pilot KNOWS where the jumpers bailed out on jump run, he should KNOW that they will be under canopy lower but somewhere in the vicinity of the exit point (even considering the effect of upper level winds) and he should know that under canopy they will be upwind of and heading toward the landing area. He should also know that new skydivers are directed to head to their holding area once under canopy - the holding area being upwind of the target.

With all that knowledge, why would a jump pilot do his downwind leg in that same airspace - upwind of the target - in the student's "holding area?" Why not do the downwind leg OFF the airport (1/8 to 1/4 mile out) and just do a longer base? Is there a rule against that?

I've seen this recently. Luckily I was the first one out my last few jumps and opened at 4500. Under canopy I could see further down the jump run the canopies cracking open of jumpers who got out after me and pulled lower. Sure enough, not long after they opened here comes the plane on its downwind leg way too close to those canopies.

I did not misjudge it. Later, I watched from the ground and off the DZ but still at the airport. The canopies opened over my head and started heading to the peas. And here comes the jump plane, WITHIN the confines of the airport on his downwind leg, right where the canopies had just been. Some canopies were still there - the tandems!

OK he didn't hit anyone - that's good. BUT why can't he do the downwind leg further out and just do a longer base?

I am not saying that this was the cause of the recent incident - but I am saying that because of that incident I have increased awareness of where the jump plane and every other plane is. Maybe we can't expect the other planes to work around skydivers, but surely the jump plane itself can do a little more not to spook us.

One student I know of saw the jump plane heading to the vicinity of the holding area that the student was directed to fly to. Instead, the student flew to a spot crosswind of the target and held there then flew into the pattern from the side, just because the jump plane was going to and did in fact fly right through the holding area on its downwind leg. Sure the student could have headed there after the plane went through, but instead held position.

Again I ask, why does the plane have to be there at all?

Flame away!

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[F16Driver 0]

The pilot is responsible for deconfliction from the skydivers. If he can maintain that, he can fly his normal pattern at the airfield. Even if you see all the jumpers, I don't think it is smart to knowingly fly into an area that will conflict with them (There may be a jumper you don't see). I agree with you, however, that if the aircraft's pattern is constantly bringing it in conflict with jumpers then something should be changed. Some things to note:

1. If the jumpship is flying a normal pattern, then so are other aircraft coming into the airport. You can either change your landing area or change the local pattern procedures to avoid your part of the airfield.

2. Regardless of pattern changes, you still have the Farmer Bob's that fly into airfields without talking or listening to any type of radio freq. So always be vigilant.

3. Talk to the jumpship pilot about what you've seen. If he has an ounce of common sense he will make his pattern wider. (I did when I flew jumpers, I liked setting up for a 1.5 to 2 mile straight-in on my descents). If he doesn't then talk to the DZO. If the DZO and pilot are the same, then get other jumpers on your side.

Hope this helps!

"I promise, I will never die."

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

I am no pilot so maybe there is some rule I am not aware of

Then why not talk with the Pilot as to your concerns?

It may answer some of your questions faster.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[riggerrob 562]

At better-run DZs, they modify the landing pattern to keep airplanes away from skydivers.
For example, at Pitt Meadows, when we are jumping, the control tower shifts 90% of the traffic to the main runway (26Left) while we land near the button of 26 Right. Only jump planes use runway 26 right when the DZ is active.
In another example, when the skydiving school opened in Dunnville, Ontario, they modified the (airplane) landing pattern to keep all airplane traffic on the south side of the airport.

[scrublink 0]

I think that if this is a concern of yours then you should talk to the DZO and/or the pilot. I have been flying at an airport (in addition to jumping) with a DZ for about twenty years and we have never had to modify our traffic pattern to accommodate jumpers. At an active DZ aircraft should not make mid-field crosswind and should avoid the "box" or "cone" that the jumpers fly in. The jumpers job (and this is slightly different at individual airports) is to use common sense and stay out of the traffic pattern and not fly over the runway, especially approach and departure ends below 1000 feet or so. The aircraft to worry about aren't usually the jumpships. It is almost always the weekend warrior types that are never really current and don't have a clue about where they really are. As "pilot in command" of your canopy you also have to see and avoid just like a pilot. So after you talk to the pilot and/or the DZO make sure that all your questions have been answered to your satisfaction and maybe the most important point. make sure you know exactly where and at what altitude the traffic pattern and its various legs are flown at. Helicopters, on a side note are only required to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic. Looking down on one of them suckers while under canopy reminds you of a food processor with you as the carrot.

[chutem 0]

Is it standard practice at your DZ for high pullers (4500) to get out before low pullers?
James

[JeffSkydiver 0]

You asked,

"Is it standard practice at your DZ for high pullers (4500) to get out before low pullers?"

Reply:

Belly formations exit first. Solo bellies exit right before aff's, then tandems.

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[adamUK 3]

Often pilots fly a left hand circuit as that gives them a better view of the airfield/parachute landing area (the pilot's seat being on the left of the plane). Hopefully many will keep the circuit wide enough to catch sight of most canopies and make avoiding action where appropriate.

[scrublink 0]

Pattern direction and altitude are determined by the regulating authority and take into account the many different parts of the surrounding environment. Left is traffic is most common and 1000 feet AGL (above ground level) for most GA (general aviation) aircraft is the most common altitude.
That being said, some airports have one way runway that you take off in one direction and land in the other due to terrain features on one end of the runway. Unless you got a hell of a tail wind you don't change direction. Others use a right traffic pattern to avoid flying over inhospitable terrain or noise sensitive areas. Some airports have a higher traffic pattern with steeper descent profiles on the base leg and final.
While I seem to recall reading some place about left hadn traffic being preferred because the pilot sits on the left I haven't put much faith in that answer because there were a great many training and personal use aircraft in the early days of aviation that had tandem seating (one in front of the other) and the view was the same out either side.

[F16Driver 0]

Quote

Pattern direction and altitude are determined by the regulating authority and take into account the many different parts of the surrounding environment. Left is traffic is most common and 1000 feet AGL (above ground level) for most GA (general aviation) aircraft is the most common altitude.
That being said, some airports have one way runway that you take off in one direction and land in the other due to terrain features on one end of the runway. Unless you got a hell of a tail wind you don't change direction. Others use a right traffic pattern to avoid flying over inhospitable terrain or noise sensitive areas. Some airports have a higher traffic pattern with steeper descent profiles on the base leg and final.
While I seem to recall reading some place about left hadn traffic being preferred because the pilot sits on the left I haven't put much faith in that answer because there were a great many training and personal use aircraft in the early days of aviation that had tandem seating (one in front of the other) and the view was the same out either side.

Pattern direction and altitude are only regulated at CONTROLLED fields. Pattern procedures for UNCONTROLLED fields are published in the AIM (They are not FAR's). Therefore, the procedures are recommendations, not a requirement. So a pilot can do whatever he wants to land his plane at that field (He doesn't even need to talk or monitor the radio freq.). Not a smart thing to do, but many,many,many pilots do it, and they are perfectly legal. They can get fined for not knowing local procedures when it comes to noise-sensitive areas and other local laws, but it is very hard to enforce.

Just my 2 cents.

"I promise, I will never die."

[JeffSkydiver 0]

Well- I got my questions answered and will sum it up this way:

There is probably nothing to prevent a jump plane from flying a landing pattern wide enough to avoid skydivers under canopy.

I wish they would.

jt

*

Let's all do this safe enough that we can still do this in our 90's.

[scrublink 0]

f16driver. I must admit that you are right. That will teach me from typing while drunk and not getting it right.