HP From an Old Fart

[davelepka 4]

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Nearly 20 people per year have been killed under HP Canopies and the Velocity is over a third of them.

Top 5 w/ number of fatalities per:
Velocity 24
Stiletto 12
Sabre2 11
Katana 7
Spectre 7

So how are these stats to be changed?

Here's where your disconenct from reality is showing through. The Sabre2 and the Spectre are most certainly NOT HP canopipes.

As for the others, yes, people are going to die under high performance canopies because they're engaging in a dangerous activity. Much like we all make the choice to accpet the risk of skydiving in general, some of us make the choice to accept the risk of flying and swooping high performance canopies.

It's like motorcycle racing, or car racing, or boat racing, it takes an activity that already has an aspect of danger, and adds to that by increasing the speed of performance of the vehicle. It also surely adds to the number of fatalities or injuries, but it's not because there's anything wrong with racecars or bikes.

The problem we have, and I've said it many times before, it all the people who are injured or killed who are not swooping and all the people who are trying to swoop without sifficient experience and training. The VAST majority of swoopers are not injured or killed as a result of swooping, and that's becasue it can be done safely. The EXACT same thing could be said about skydiving in general.

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How about MANDATED training before you downsize. (With a qualified trainer) ie before every downsize you MUST attend a training course on that wingloading and specific canopy and pass said course.
Until then you CAN'T buy or jump that canopy

How about I've been saying that almost since the day I registered on DZ.com? I'm willing to bet I've put that forth several times in this thread already. I've also freely admitted that it wasn't my idea or concept, I stole it right from all the countries in Europe that already have such systems in place.

I don't think training needs to be specific to one canopy or WL, but it should cater towards classes of canopies and WL. For example, your 'A' license will come with a 'Canopy 1' rating, and that clears you up to a 1.1 WL on a certain list of canopies, all docile and easy going. You could hang on to your 'Canopy 1' rating for your entire life, and just leave it at that. There's no need for further training, the traiing you recieved in earning your A license is enough to allow you to jump at the 'Canopy 1' level (the canopy control training to revieve an A license will need to be boosted a bit).

Beyond that, if you want the 'Canopy 2' rating, you need to earn it by making a set number of jumps, lets say 150, and taking a canopy control class that get's into some more advacned techniques and concpets of canopy flight. This would start to work in some aerodynamics and canopy theory, because the faster you want to go, the more of this you need. Did anyone ever notice that every military fighter pilot has a college degree in some form of aerodynamics, avaiation tech, or the like? There's a reason for that.

Once you earn the 'Canopy 2' rating, now you're cleared for a higher WL, and mayebe some additional canopies. Not every level of canopy rating is going to include a new set of canopies you can jump, there just aren't that many differences to allow enough classes to go along with the number of steps in WL you shuld be taking. From your first jump (with an 'Canopy 1' rating at 1.1 WL or lower) up to the 'Unlimited' rating, there should be at least 4 'steps' in your downsizing. That's not to say that 4 steps is enough to go from 1.1 to 2.5 WL, but it's enough to go from 1.1 with just basic training, to 'Unlimited' which starts at 1.5 at which point you have the training (and hopefully the judgement) to be smart enough not to make a huge downsize.

So you could have three classes of canopy, Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced. Beginner canopies would serve the 'Canopy 1' and 'Canopy 2' ratings, with a bump in allowable WL inbetween the two. Intermediate canopies would serve the 'Canopy 3' and 'Canopy 4' ratings, again with a bump in allowable WL for each rating, and the Advanced canopies would gl along with the 'Unlimited' rating.

The whole system is pretty simple. If you would gather up a panel of instructors, canopy control coaches, manufacturers, and canopy competitors, and lock them in a room for 3 days, you would have your system. Based on their experience and knowledge, they would hack the canopies up into the three classes, bolster the training required for the A licesne, and develop the cirriculum for the 3 additional canopy control course (most of which already exists in the cirriculum of privately run canopy control courses).

Then it's just a matter of the USPA giving it some 'teeth' and making it a BSR. Each DZ could select an 'instructor' to run the classes, and it could be anyone who understands the material and has an ability to speak to a room full of people. You don't need a rating or to be certified, you're not jumpnig with anyone or working with students, this is classroom time with experienced jumpers. With a well-written cirriculum, it's about the same as the stewardess going through the safety procedures on an airplane (not exactly, but you get my point).

What to do is not really our problem. Getting it done is the problem. There's no way I'm the first guy to think of this, but with regards to this subject, I think USPA stands for 'USless Parachute Association'.

[Martini 0]

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I, however, will mourn the people that die on HP Canopies because they had no right jumping them and people like you didn't stop them!

How did you get to be the judge of other peoples rights? Fun police.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[skybill 18]

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I will jump my Stiletto and I doubt seriously Marsha that you will stop me, Just Try!!

My god man! Not a Stiletto!! And at a w/l of 1.18? Almost certain death.
Statistically speaking of course.

Hi Marty,
heheheheheh, me an my Stiletto........""190!!!"" Really High Speed man!! 'Don't really care 'bout those high speed, screemer landings, my bonz don't bend like they usedta'!! 'Jez thought I'd jerk Marsha's chain for a few laughs!! Looks like I did good! Funny about breaking bonz and canopies, I survived the 7-TU era with only a sprained ankle but did manage to break my tib-fib with a Scare-a-Commander MK-1. 'Nothing more than a few bruises with Ram Airz, an those go back to Strato Scarez!!!! Let ole' ding-a-ling keep rantin' bout all those high speed crashers and I'll jez' keep doin my powder puff toudhdowns with my "HP!!!" Stilletto ""190!!!!"" BTW my old bud Harry Leicher's been gone for a while but the comment he put at the end of his posts still rings true, same for the one by Mike "Sparky" Owens. Ain't none of us gonna get outa this place alive!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[Martini 0]

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Trae 1]

in reply to "through. The Sabre2 and the Spectre are most certainly NOT HP canopipes. "
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Hi davelepka, you're a real good skydiver, I can tell. I like your posts and have learnt a lot considering them.
But you're wrong on this one.

A Sabre2 IS a HP canopy, especially compared to a Pegasus.
Your Velocity is an EXTREME HP canopy.

you hot shots have changed the accepted standards.
Now A licensees are expected to learn to fly a HP canopy pretty well from the get go.

Your 16 years in the sport puts you starting in the mid 1990's.
Have you even seen a Pegasus?

When the Pegasus came out it was a hot canopy for the times. All the good guys, not the wannabes, were jumping them.
If Marisan was flying one , with his 2000 jumps way back then, that is an indication to me that it is more than likely, that he is a pretty hot skydiver.
He's seen and done things very few of us will ever get to experience. ...and we're the poorer for it.
He did it in a safer environment with better canopies suited to the purpose and with mates that cared greatly about him and his continued survival.

Now who's leading the crowd.? Go Fast? or is that just more redbullshit.
It doesn't look to me like they care as much as Marisan and his mates.

If students were introduced to skydiving with a peaceul canopy and not allowed to fly HP , Sabre2's included, until they had proved themselves on their docile little life saver. A couple of hundred jumps when you're starting out , where your canopy doesn't constantly try to kill you.

I think we'd all have more fun people to skydive with and not just a bunch of speedy canopy freaks....and the litter of bodies they leave behind.

[davelepka 4]

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But you're wrong on this one.

A Sabre2 IS a HP canopy, especially compared to a Pegasus

How could you compare the two? If you compare them WL for WL, you'll find that the Sabre2 is not a high performance canopy. How big was a Pegasus? 220sq ft I think, so if you put an average sized jumper on a Sabre2 210 or 230, it is not going to perform like a HP canopy. It's going to perform better than a Pegasus, but it's not high performance.

The problem is that average sized jumpers don't jump 210sq ft or 230 sq ft canopies. The average sized jumper is jumping 150sq ft and 170 sq ft canopies. Like any canopy, the more you load it, the higher the performance.

So once again, it's not the canopy, it's the pilot and what they're doing with it. If you load a Sabre2 at .8 or .7 to 1, like a Pegasus, it's a very doclie and forgiving canopy. Likewise, try loading a Pegasus at 1.2 or 1.3, and see how forgiving it is then.

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If students were introduced to skydiving with a peaceul canopy

They are. We give students PD Navigators where I jump, and I don't know of any DZ where they give students anything close to a HP canopy, or anything with a WL that would add performance to a canopy. Every DZ I've ever been to has 90% of their student rigs with canopies larger than 200sq ft. I think we have one 190 in our student room, and that's in the rig with the little harness for the leightweights, and even then they don't start off with that.

Again, students are trained on the right equipment, it's just that once they're done training, they are free to jump what they want. Based on what they see, and 'popular opinion', they make the choices they do. If they didn't have carte blanche right off the bat, they couldn't make bad choices. Once they have the commensurate experience and training, then they can have carte blanche, and jump whatever they please.

But again, it's not the canopies.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "
How could you compare the two? If you compare them WL for WL, you'll find that the Sabre2 is not a high performance canopy. How big was a Pegasus? 220sq ft I think, so if you put an average sized jumper on a Sabre2 210 or 230, it is not going to perform like a HP canopy. It's going to perform better than a Pegasus, but it's not high performance. "
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Toggle/ riser response on a Sabre 2 makes it HP in my book...even at lower loading that thing will turn radical without too much effort.

A Pegasus had much higher control input required and to get a similar radical turn you had to really work at it. This is a kind of built in safety device that modern light toggle/riser pressure canopies don't have.

Light toggle/riser pressure can of course make a big difference on a newbies first panic turn.
The HP monster part of your nice docile Sabre2 is sitting there waiting , it may only monster you when you don't want it too...but it will be your fault not the canopies , never the canopies

eg a recently noted Sabre2 newbie landing.
too high ...bit of front riser...oopss.... overshoot ......half flare ..pop-up......float........not sure what to do with toggles.....bit sideways ...let up toggles a bit ...reflare.... contact....up quick ....dust off...bit limpy .

I can't remember Pegasus canopies being like that even heavily loaded , although then they did have a nasty stall, but most canopies do don't they?

If I was a student now and had full knowlege of the fast canopy death and injury trail, I wouldn't go anywhere near anything even slightly elliptical eg Sabre2, until I had done my time on a truly forgiving rectangular canopy.

I've had multiple prangs on 7cell F111 200 size canopies , prangs that would have killed me if I'd been under a Sabre2.

Its more than just the loading,
how does that sucker perform when things go wrong?
If your canopy goes all HP just when you need it to set you down safe, then that's not forgiving, its dangerous.
How'd would you like to land off with a Sabre2 on a night jump. not me, my old 7cell no worries deep brake , slow motion. With my Katana , no thank you.

It has a lot to do with the canopies . I expect them to save my life as well as be fun.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

For the record...
My first "new" canopy was a Pegasus. I loved that canopy. It was leaps and bounds ahead of the old rags I was jumping at the time. Back then, it was HP. Students worked their way up to the likes of this canopy.

A couple years ago, we started putting together some old f-111 rigs to do some CRW. In the process, I found a used Furry (Pegasus clone) for sale. It was like new and only had 35 jumps on it. The lines were still pure white and the fabric was shiny and clean. I've put a few jumps on it now and I can tell you, it flies like my Pegasus 30 years ago.

So, the following perspective is based not on my aging memory, but rather on current jump experience. The Sabre II is a much more responsive canopy than the Pegasus. And although both can be flown safely to the ground, both have the ability to kill you if you're not careful.

The Pegasus has a much slower forward speed, and is not nearly as responsive to toggle pressure. It flies like a truck compared to the Sabre II. However, come landing time, the Sabre II has way more flare power and soft landings are easier. If you burry a toggle on the Pegasus, it starts to come around slowly and speeds up gradually into the turn. The Sabre, given similar toggle pressure, responds much more quickly and turns harder.

So, how does this information play into this discussion? One of the canopies I jump today is a Sabre 135. At my current W/L, it is indeed a HP canopy. Jumping a Sabre 210 is not the same animal. Back in the day, we didn’t have smaller canopies to downsize to. (Well, except for maybe the Strato Star.) If I’d of had access to a Sabre II 135 back in the day, I’d surely be dead! I’m alive today not because I’m a better canopy pilot, but because I’m more aware of how easily this canopy can kill me.

Multiply this scenario times a Velocity, and you begin to see the problem Marisan has identified. Davelepka hit the nail on the head above. "It has a lot to do with the canopies. I expect them to save my life as well as be fun."

So, don’t discount an “old farts” ability to identify a problem just because he no longer jumps. There is much to be learned from his\her experience.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[davelepka 4]

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Davelepka hit the nail on the head above. "It has a lot to do with the canopies. I expect them to save my life as well as be fun."

So, don’t discount an “old farts” ability to identify a problem just because he no longer jumps. There is much to be learned from his\her experience.

First off, that was not my quote. Not that I don't agree with it, but it wasn't me.

Second, I'm not discounting the opinion of older jumpers, but the way he was speaking about modern canopies was as if he had expereince with them. He made a great number of generalzations, most of which were incorrect.

Back to canopies, even if you jump a Pegasus and a Sabre2 at the same WL, yes the Sabre2 will have lower toggle pressure and a better flare, both of which I see as good things.

Let's make yet another comparison to cars, newer cars flat out perform better than older cars. They turn quicker, handle better, stop better, and in most cases, are faster. Does that mean that everyone should learn to drive in a 1977 Olds Cutlass? No, it just means that new drivers need to be taught to drive a modern car, and the way you do that is to train them in modern cars, and teach them techniques for driving modern cars.

Related example - I have an 81 Superglide w/ a Shovelhead. Riding it is akin to driving a tractor, the controls are heavy, and the throws are long. I have to lift my foot off the peg to upshift, as my ankle doesn't flex enough to just 'flick' the shifter. Riding the bike involves big exaggerated movements for the clutch, throttle, shifter and the brakes (which aren't the best, even with two discs). If I learned to ride on that bike, and then got a newer bike, I would be over-doing the control movements, and would have to learn to 'tone down' my movements to suit a more modern bike.

In terms of canopies, a jumper who learns to jump on a newer wing, and downsizes slowly to a Sabre2 at 1 to1 will have no problem with the lower toggle pressure. They will just come to know that as 'toggle pressure', because without the Pegasus to jump for comaprison, the toggle pressure isn't light or heavy, it just 'is'.

If you were trying to interject a Sabre2 into 1986 skydiving, you might have a point, but it's not 1986 and that's part of the problem. While the old equipment isn't around anymore, the training isn't much different. Jumpers today have the advantage of being 'calibrated' to new canopies with lighter toggle pressure and better flare, but that's just curcumstantial based on what they have available to jump. That circumstance would be enough if people stayed at, or around, 1 to1 WL, like they did in the Pegasus days, but they don't. Most jumpers don't even buy a first rig at 1 to 1, it seems like 1.1 or 1.2 is more of a standard starting point.

It all comes back the training, or lack thereof. The canopies, when compared WL for WL are not all that different, and the few changes are for the better. The scope of canopies has expanded exponentially in the last 20 years, and the training has not. HP canopies are not to blame, it's the jumpers. The canopies do exactly what the jumpers tell them to do.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "In terms of canopies, a jumper who learns to jump on a newer wing, and downsizes slowly to a Sabre2 at 1 to1 will have no problem with the lower toggle pressure. They will just come to know that as 'toggle pressure', because without the Pegasus to jump for comaprison, the toggle pressure isn't light or heavy, it just 'is'.

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You're making it very clear to us oldies what has gone wrong. Thank you.
I'm lucky, BS doesn't baffle me.

The basic problem is newbies getting onto canopies they aren't ready for .

Who's allowing this irresponsibility?
Who's encouraging this irresponsibility?

One thing creating and perpetuating this problem is guys like you, that don't really know what it was like in the 1980's, telling newbies what it was like in the 1980's..and pushing the line that all things are better now.

" its all OK, the lighter control input required to kill yourself is normal now ", you are adding I hope that "it will be MUCH easier for you to hurt yourself on this canopy than it was for those people flying those safer older canopies."

you could also tell them "Us modern skydivers, discarded the hard earnt wisdom of our elders and started over again. That's why we recreated all the death and injury under canopy, so we could be better than them.


You see that's why so many people are getting killed and injured under canopies too hot for them. These guys think its OK to fly around on an elliptical rocket, straight out of student training....cause they're used to it ??????

Most of these modern AFF trained people feeding their lines constantly to newbiesguys are simple usurpers.
They aren't caring properly for their charges .

In the dim ol'past, eg 1986, these newbies just wouldn't have been allowed to jump those canopies, especially given the incident rate.
And you know the funny thing, they wouldn't have wanted to.

These modern up to date skydiver guys are telling newbies to fly these things but don't know how to teach them to save themselves.

Once again davelepka , you got some great stuff to share mate, but please don't try telling us what it was like when you weren't there.
We can tell the difference , you're just guessing.

[Marisan 0]

Watched a guy, back in the day, trying a new accuracy technique with his 220 F111 canopy.
It involved coming in downwind and initiating a 180 turn and hopefully coming out of it at about 10 feet lined up with the disc.
Didn't work and he landed short of the peas 3 times. He gave it up after that. Funny thing was, he got up and walked away from each jump without even a limpy limpy.

There was another technique that even worked on a StratoStar. If you misjudged your final turn (Too low) when you reached normal flare height you just flared with the non turn toggle and landed normally. Great for when you'd put yourself in Hazard City.

A couple of years ago on a rare visit to the DZ I watched a young jumper (roughly 200 jumps) try really hard to hurt himself. He'd turned in hot and was heading for hazard city (Cars, fences, powerlines etc.) At about 20 feet he initiated a 45 turn to get out of the shit. I couldn't believe how hard he hit.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "At about 20 feet he initiated a 45 turn to get out of the shit. I couldn't believe how hard he hit. "
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That guy was lucky, he only hit from 20ft. You should see the mess when they hit from higher up....

sorry no you shouldn't , its disgusting , such a pointless waste of life.
it looks psychotic and is.

you know straight after, what happens ?

the little chooks run around all surprised and freaked the fuck out, hiding their drugs , as if they're surprised that the 3 day binge finally caught up with them.

Wait til happens near you and see what you think.



and the solution is so simple....but our sports balls aint dropped yet apparently.

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

So, as many people on this and many other threats have agreed, it is not the canopy, it is the pilot.

Now at our DZ before the student jumps from a F111 280 Manta they get a "Sport canopy endorsement" that it is mandatory to anyone who is getting their 'A' license
here is the link.
http://www.cspa.ca/en/cwc/cops/qaq-cop/117-sport-canopy

After that, there is another "B canopy endorsement" which is the novice doing all the talking (with the coach correcting on wrong info) and also increase the complexity of the theory information.

[craigbey 0]

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So, don’t discount an “old farts” ability to identify a problem just because he no longer jumps. There is much to be learned from his\her experience.

If you're referring to the old farts that are posting in this thread, I don't think there's much to learn. The longer they are away from the sport and the more they cling to 'the way things were', the more irrelevant they become.

People who have been in the sport that long have a LOT to offer if they remain current and can work with new jumpers to impart their wisdom and experience.

But if all they're going to do is get nostalgic and holier-than-thou, I offer this...

Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
A little of the glory of, well time slips away
And leaves you with nothing mister but
Boring stories of glory days

[Marisan 0]

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So, don’t discount an “old farts” ability to identify a problem just because he no longer jumps. There is much to be learned from his\her experience.

If you're referring to the old farts that are posting in this thread, I don't think there's much to learn. The longer they are away from the sport and the more they cling to 'the way things were', the more irrelevant they become.

People who have been in the sport that long have a LOT to offer if they remain current and can work with new jumpers to impart their wisdom and experience.

But if all they're going to do is get nostalgic and holier-than-thou, I offer this...

Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
A little of the glory of, well time slips away
And leaves you with nothing mister but
Boring stories of glory days

Ahh craigbey, your generation isn't offering the newbies that instruction that they so desperately need.
You seem to be satisfied with just watching the carnage.

[davelepka 4]

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You're making it very clear to us oldies what has gone wrong. Thank you.
I'm lucky, BS doesn't baffle me.

The basic problem is newbies getting onto canopies they aren't ready for

How is that different from what I've been saying all along. If you read my post, I stated the following, which says the same-

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Jumpers today have the advantage of being 'calibrated' to new canopies with lighter toggle pressure and better flare, but that's just curcumstantial based on what they have available to jump. That circumstance would be enough if people stayed at, or around, 1 to1 WL, like they did in the Pegasus days, but they don't. Most jumpers don't even buy a first rig at 1 to 1, it seems like 1.1 or 1.2 is more of a standard starting point.

Again, it's not the canopies, it's the people, and what they choose to fly. If everyone stuck to larger canopies, even the new ones would be docile and forgiving.

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In the dim ol'past, eg 1986, these newbies just wouldn't have been allowed to jump those canopies, especially given the incident rate.
And you know the funny thing, they wouldn't have wanted to.

Want to talk BS? That's it right there. Skydivers will always be skydivers, and they'll always want the 'hot' canopy. Why do you think everyone was jacking-off on the Pegasus? It's because it was faster and better than everything esle. The difference now is the scope of canopies available, and the top end of that scope is a touch higher performance than a Pegasus.

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Once again davelepka , you got some great stuff to share mate, but please don't try telling us what it was like when you weren't there.
We can tell the difference , you're just guessing

Guess again, slick. My first 10 jumps were on various F-111 canopies, sized from 280 to 240. Then I was allowed to jump the 'hot' student rig, an F-111 220sq ft Cruise Lite (aka the Bruise Lite), and I latched onto it for about 40 jumps. When I finally bought my own rig around jump 50, it was stuffed full of clapped out F-111 PD190, and I pounded in on that right up until jump 100, when I finally had the money to upgrade to a Z-po canopy.

I've been there, and experienced the suck. I've also been here, and everywhere in between. The canopies are good, they do what they're told, it's all in the lack of training.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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................ I've been there, and experienced the suck. I've also been here, and everywhere in between. The canopies are good, they do what they're told, it's all in the lack of training and the inability for any of us to choose the proper canopy.

I took the liberty to fix it for you...
As edited, +1

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[craigbey 0]

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your generation isn't offering the newbies that instruction that they so desperately need

Wrong. The instruction is there. Right now, it's just too difficult to find at some DZ's and participation is voluntary.

You know that the culture did not change over night. It tooks many years to evolve and become what it is today. During that time you and others in 'your generation' were involved in the sport in some way.

As pointed out by Trae, there were warning signs many years ago. What did you do about it then?

Nothing? So now others are being blamed for 'just watching the carnage'?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

You are absolutely right. Back in the 70's, the culture was the same. The difference is, we didn't have any 79 foot Velo's. Believe me, "weda jumped em if weda had em". And, isn't that the real point of this thread? Can we all agree that this "Culture" needs to change?

We get so wound up with the "Who's better, the old farts or the gun sharps?" that we forget about the common ground we all share. Can we all please agree that this "Culture" needs to change? Assigning a "who's to blame" for the problem is not helping.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Wrong. The instruction is there. Right now, it's just too difficult to find at some DZ's and participation is voluntary.

You know that the culture did not change over night. It tooks many years to evolve and become what it is today. During that time you and others in 'your generation' were involved in the sport in some way.

As pointed out by Trae, there were warning signs many years ago. What did you do about it then?

Nothing? So now others are being blamed for 'just watching the carnage'? "
..................................

craigbey.
What did I do about it ? What a tale that would be.....its still going on now.

I'm a regular jumper, I jump as much as I want to. I jumped last weekend, wanna jump this weekend etc etc

As a FT instructor in the 1990's I'd say to people "you shouldn't be jumping that canopy you're not ready for it. its dangerous to you and other people. " They saw that like saying they should go back to kindergarten, when it was just the truth.
I'd already seen the same canopies knock out highly experienced people...and these guys were turkeys.

The people that had the power to actually say "NO you can't jump that canopy", didn't use it. At the time they were too distracted by their new tandem industry...and the sudden influx of real money.
Plus ....the operators, generally weren't very good skydivers and they knew it. They let the controls slip out of their hands and straight into the hands of the fastest landing person on the DZ. Many still do.

DZ's I like to get to lately are very well run . I'm impressed . If a person turns into a skydiver at one of these DZ's they're getting old school wisdom along the way...and lots of it.

New school? you guys skipped too many classes.

edited cause got dyslexic...again

[craigbey 0]

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you guys skipped too many classes

Wrong again. We have many CC classes available now that you did not have back in your day. I've taken several ... you?

My guess is that you have not. But you don't have to, right? It's not your problem, right?

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What did I do about it ? What a tale that would be.....its still going on now.

In a prior post, you stated that you were no longer responsible to impart your wisdom and experience to others. So, which is it?

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DZ's I like to get to lately are very well run . I'm impressed . If a person turns into a skydiver at one of these DZ's they're getting old school wisdom along the way...and lots of it.

And their CC program is what, exactly? What are the requirements for CC training? What do they do to ensure that jumpers get the training they need?

[Trae 1]

Hi craigbey,
spelt your name right this time,

We could cross swords on this , your experiences verses mine ,etc etc
But this isn't about me or you, its about our sport allowing the crap to continue.

its become normal has it ?

When people bounce, sensible people find out why.
If the gear sucks they avoid it. How many this year ??? What about how many in the last 20 years?

My guess (your's is wrong by the way) is that our industry will pull its finger out eventually and mandate canopy type/ experience levels to protect the public as they enter our sport.

So many questions.... go ask your instructor

[Trae 1]

in reply to"Guess again, slick. My first 10 jumps were on various F-111 canopies, sized from 280 to 240. Then I was allowed to jump the 'hot' student rig, an F-111 220sq ft Cruise Lite (aka the Bruise Lite), and I latched onto it for about 40 jumps. When I finally bought my own rig around jump 50, it was stuffed full of clapped out F-111 PD190, and I pounded in on that right up until jump 100, when I finally had the money to upgrade to a Z-po canopy.

...........................................

The thing is,generally speaking , I don't even disagree with you. I just think a Sabre2 is a HP canopy and you don't.

in reply to "I've been there, and experienced the suck. I've also been here, and everywhere in between. "

Now that's just a gem.
can't wait to go everywhere ....must be fun.

[davelepka 4]

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I just think a Sabre2 is a HP canopy and you don't

It just depends on the WL. If people loaded them the same way they loaded a Pegasus, the Sabre2 is not high performance. The problem is, people load them heavier than a Pegasus, and don't recieve any training beyond what you would have recieved to jump a Pegasus.

Lighter control inputs don't make something high performance. Again, look at modern cars. If you turn the wheel or step on the brake in a car with power steering and brakes with the same force that you used in a car without power steering and brakes, you would swerve off the road, or come to a very quick halt in the middle of the road. Despite this, brain-dead teenagers everywhere manage to drive modern car, with their lightly calibrated control inputs, without incident.

The reason is that from the first time they got behind the wheel, they were dealing with power steering and brakes, and they learned how much force was required, and that's the force that they used.

When was the last time you loosened a stubborn screw without stripping the head? You know that you cannot just apply 100% of your strength, you meter out what's needed, and get the job done.

When was the last time you ripped your dick off treating it like a screwdriver being used to loosen a stubborn screw? I'm guessing never, and that's because, again, you learned what level of force was appropriate, and used it.

For further reference, we have a Sabre 190 as the 'small' student/rental canopy. It's in the rig with the little harness, and only used for the leightweights. Just this weekend, I was helping a newbie with 15 jumps pack his new (to him) Sabre 190 in his first rig. He's about 130 lbs, so it's lightly loaded and a good choice for a first canopy.

Many years ago, my first 'small' canopy was a Sabre 107 that I loaded at about 1.7 to 1, and I put about 500 jumps on it. I learned to swoop and fly a small canopy with that wing, and it was fast and liked to fall out of the sky. The point is that the same canopy, but in a 190, is suitable for lighter students and newbies, while I used a highly loaded one to learn to swoop.

The way some people jump them, the Sabre2 can be a HP canopy. The way newbies should jump them, the Sabre2 is not high performance.

[Marisan 0]

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You are absolutely right. Back in the 70's, the culture was the same. The difference is, we didn't have any 79 foot Velo's. Believe me, "weda jumped em if weda had em". And, isn't that the real point of this thread? Can we all agree that this "Culture" needs to change?

We get so wound up with the "Who's better, the old farts or the gun sharps?" that we forget about the common ground we all share. Can we all please agree that this "Culture" needs to change? Assigning a "who's to blame" for the problem is not helping.

Again, back in the day (30 years ago) I trained people on how to jump their canopies in my club. If you weren't trained by someone accepted by the CSO (Club Safety Officer) and didn't pass an EXAM administered by the CSO you didn't jump that hot Strato Star or Strato Cloud or (Gasp) Strato Flyer. You also had to have built up you experience on non wing type canopies before anyone would even look at you.

The Pegasus: I didn't buy it because it was fast but because of the type of jumping I did. It was a very good all rounder. It was good for CRW, Accuracy, Demos and General Rel.

We didn't show the size of our dicks by the size of the canopy we jumped but by the fact that we jumped.

It was an incredible time of change in the sport and we DID KILL people because we didn't know what we didn't know.

We learnt from these fatalities and tried not to make the same mistakes.

I must have been moderately good because I'm still here.

That's more than you can say for the 50% of fatalities that died under fully functioning, fully open canopies in the last 15 odd years.

You guys really HAVE to back to the training regimes of the old days. If you haven't had the training (And I mean TRAINING not a 10 minute brief on what to expect) well, then you don't jump that canopy whatever wingloading it is. (And that training should also include PLF's)

Saying the training is available and you just have to seek it out doesn't cut it as demonstrated by the Incident Thread.