nigel99 144 #1 Posted August 30, 2023 I find it interesting that so many Americans state that the 2nd amendment is to prevent a tyrannical government. Since that appears that a large part of MAGA believe that the current government is Tyrannical, it seems that they should be exercising their 2nd amendment rights. I have always found it to be a misguided belief and pretty ineffective. As shown by the insurrection charges the state has many tools at it's disposal. I don't believe the US military and law enforcement would cave into a truly Tyrannical government. If they would then they might have supported Trump in his efforts on Jan 6th for example. As the military, law enforcement and courts are at least in principle independent from politics, they would presumably step in should politicians give illegal orders. Presumably if people felt it appropriate to exercise their 2nd amendment rights against law enforcement and military I can't see how they could win. The only possible way to be effective would be to adopt terrorist type tactics, which clearly fall outside the law and so would be up against the legal system. In summary it seems the tyrannical government argument has been proven to be a false premise. I'm not against guns, in fact despite Australian gun laws are quite tight and often derided our attitude is entirely different and guns are for hunting, target shooting and pest control. My son has 5 guns here in Australia including 2 high powered rifles and a hand gun, all legal and sanctioned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #2 August 30, 2023 N Quote Nigel, Surely you're not really expecting any kind of logical consistency from MAGA types. Critical thinking skills are not generally well developed in the poorly educated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 911 #3 August 30, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, nigel99 said: ...Presumably if people felt it appropriate to exercise their 2nd amendment rights against law enforcement and military I can't see how they could win. The only possible way to be effective would be to adopt terrorist type tactics, which clearly fall outside the law and so would be up against the legal system.... No offense intended but you clearly don't understand the mindset of some conservative US gun owners. As has been quoted in these forums several times about 18-20 % of current GOP supports have stated that "violence may be necessary" or "violence is acceptable" in order to reinstate trump or to prevent another "election steal". Most believe that the military or police will stand aside when their armed interventions take place. All because the election steal or the deep state is at work. Most believe that their AR-15 when carried by numbers will rule the day. Don't confuse facts and logic whereby the US armed forces and US police won't obey orders. When such a gun nut rebellion takes place. The gun nuts kiss their guns at night wake up to the messaging of gun forums and truth social. If you crossed the thinking of Ron and Slim you'd have these 18-20% of republicans. Edited August 30, 2023 by Phil1111 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #4 August 31, 2023 11 hours ago, Phil1111 said: No offense intended but you clearly don't understand the mindset of some conservative US gun owners. As has been quoted in these forums several times about 18-20 % of current GOP supports have stated that "violence may be necessary" or "violence is acceptable" in order to reinstate trump or to prevent another "election steal". Most believe that the military or police will stand aside when their armed interventions take place. All because the election steal or the deep state is at work. Most believe that their AR-15 when carried by numbers will rule the day. Don't confuse facts and logic whereby the US armed forces and US police won't obey orders. When such a gun nut rebellion takes place. The gun nuts kiss their guns at night wake up to the messaging of gun forums and truth social. If you crossed the thinking of Ron and Slim you'd have these 18-20% of republicans. I had hoped that by making the distinction of MAGA it was clear that I didn't mean all conservatives, but rather the lunatic fringe. I think you restated my argument though. Belief does not equal facts or logic and my argument is that the belief that you could rise up against the US military and Law enforcement is in my opinion misguided. We will always have extremists whose beliefs and dedication to their cause outweigh logic and would sacrifice themselves for the cause. Usually these people are in small minorities luckily. My key point is that haven't current circumstances shown that the resistance to changing gun laws based on the 2nd amendment argument been proven a fallacy? Ironically because this is such an ingrained belief, any government that attempted to implement reforms at this stage would probably coalesce support against them, because as you say "don't confuse facts with logic" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #5 August 31, 2023 12 hours ago, kallend said: N Nigel, Surely you're not really expecting any kind of logical consistency from MAGA types. Critical thinking skills are not generally well developed in the poorly educated. Hey John, Not expecting it. Just observing the absurdity of the argument. I find it very interesting how people can be so ignorant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
