Religion in Superman

[rehmwa 2]

quade

Very few stories have turned a completely secular Superman into Jesus. That's a very different thing altogether.

So, what are the implications of that?

I'd say it depends on how much simple entertainment affects people. For me, not one whit. I just hope it's fun to watch and the story keeps my interest and their hidden agenda, if any, can be ignored enough to get through it for entertainment. (Example, by the time The Matrix got into the last movie, it was pretty much just undigestible as entertainment anymore).

For others? YMMV

But I get what you mean, and I understand there is a large percentage of people that are weak minded enough that this trend will matter. I'll have to see it first. But I consider people are pretty much indoctrinated long before they see movies of this nature.

I'd be more worried about Sesame Street (forming minds) having unfair bias over the definition of -social norms and expectations- overcoming that which should be taught by parents. Or grade schools (active indoctrination there, not even subtle), or regular TV or games (constant exposure, kids think killing strangers is cool and guns are held in a jambing fashion), heck even fashion trends - long before feature hollywood presentations.

That's why I was being so flip about it, sorry about that. For me, this is a non-issue because of the vehicle used. But, the topic you bring up, if taken in general, is important so I could have gone a level deeper and given you a more fair response.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 3]

nigel99

Back when I was a kid, I remember my parents discussing the parallels between Superman and Jesus. There was actually alot of common elements.

Just out of curiosity, can you hang a decade on that? 60s? 70s? 80s?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nigel99 150]

quade

***Back when I was a kid, I remember my parents discussing the parallels between Superman and Jesus. There was actually alot of common elements.

Just out of curiosity, can you hang a decade on that? 60s? 70s? 80s?

80's.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[quade 3]

nigel99

******Back when I was a kid, I remember my parents discussing the parallels between Superman and Jesus. There was actually alot of common elements.

Just out of curiosity, can you hang a decade on that? 60s? 70s? 80s?
80's.

Whew. For a moment I thought you had blown my analysis of the history of the franchise. Yes, by the 80s some people had started making that subtextual connection based on the films of the 70s.

I've looked for earlier connections, but have never found them. I've done this analysis of Superman before; have never seen it so blatant as in this film.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[maadmax 0]

. . . finally he saw the light.

But, here's the interesting thing, he then got extremely defensive saying it was ONLY a good thing. He didnt see the downside of mashing the two stories together. He didnt see the subtle brainwashing. He didnt see the implication of Jesus going together with "Truth, Justice, and the American way." He got angry at the suggestion it could be taken the wrong way by other cultures and that America could be seen as being taken over by religious fundamentalist to such an extent that even our secular superheroes had now become . . . Jesus.

That is nothing new with religion. They mix Faith with cultural myths just as they did with Christmas and Easter back in the first century.

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[rehmwa 2]

finally saw it.

- one or two interesting visuals - bearded male, laying in the water strategic background in a couple scenes - even a parallelism with a child crying out against his fate - self sacrifice - some pretty 'standard' fare really - I just as well be cynical about any time that Obama stands at a speech and spreads his arms....hell, the guy even turned the other cheek a few times....there must be a plot

- a Kansas farmer and his son barely referenced faith in a couple scenes - bit deal. This fit the characters. What would have been silly was farmer Johnathon Kent sipping a latte at an internet cafe and crying about global warming - we see that religious message all the time, but I don't see any posts started about that.

the thread context, now that I've seen the movie, is full of it. they used some pretty typical imagery and subthemes. pulling a big ol' 'religious fanatic' image theory out of the movie is reaching for it unless one is living in a fantasy of secular dominance and denial that a significant part of the population has some form of life outside of PC stereotypes.

In short - sure, there were references, but we see those all the time in lots of films.


What I do see is some context noting personal responsibility, courtesy, protecting the weak, self control, self denial, and loyalty to country being advocated. Also, a clear 'thumbs down' to governmental control of choices and life roles - so I can see why certain people would have a bad taste since they weren't being fed the same stuff they want. But nothing really special.

thought the character development wasn't done very efficiently - the plot dragged on pretty bad many times, the visuals were a bit difficult on the eyes at times, glad I didn't sit up front.

I might have it once the BR comes out, but I wouldn't go to the theater again. Still better than any of the Chris Reeve ones or even the last one. I like that they started with Zod instead of Lex in this offering.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

I was upset at the end of Jacob's Ladder. Pissed off that the writers had his death vision ending with him walking up the staircase into a light.

I was jaded as such an obviously push of a standard Christian theme being jammed down the throats of the audience.

RIGGHHT - Tim Robbins agrees to push a religious agenda.

Then I woke up and noted that it was a pretty normal fit based on the nature of the character and the plot direction. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad, it was just writing a plot and staying with the character roles.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 3]

Lemme ask you something about a piece of dialogue in the film, consider it a triva question if you will.

How old is the adult Superman in this movie?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

quade

Lemme ask you something about a piece of dialogue in the film, consider it a triva question if you will.

How old is the adult Superman in this movie?

see, that's a weird one. He was found as an infant and John and Martha are contemporary.

but the other ship was surrounded by 16,000 year old ice? I'm not sure if that was significant, I had to pee at that point and was nodding off a bit from the excessive flashbacks.

what did you infer from all that?

He looks to be about 30?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[oldwomanc6 38]

I think it's funny/odd that people want to connect him with Him. I just don't see it.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[rehmwa 2]

oldwomanc6

I think it's funny/odd that people want to connect him with Him. I just don't see it.

oh - there were plenty of references and imagery, but that imagery is used all the time. It didn't seem over the top at all. but I'm sure there's more to it, but quade's being coy instead of just putting out the details. I'm sure it's interesting.

and, of course, Jesus was supposed to be a dark haired white guy that takes steroids

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 3]

oldwomanc6

I think it's funny/odd that people want to connect him with Him. I just don't see it.

It's not "people." It was specifically inserted by the director. The director specifically says so in interviews. All you have to do to "see" it is pay attention. They do everything but flat out call him Jesus.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

rehmwa

He looks to be about 30?

In dialogue from the adopted father he says Clark Kent is 33.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ianmdrennan 2]

Why does it matter?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[quade 3]

ianmdrennan

Why does it matter?

I think it matters quite a bit when there is an attempt to layer religious overtones onto something that is secular from the get go. I think it's disrespectful to both. It's how we ended up with Easter being this weird moving holiday based on the first Sunday after the first Monday after the first full Moon after the spring equinox. It's how we ended up with Christmas trees and Easter Eggs.

Think about the date of Easter for half a second and you'll realize it makes no sense whatsoever that it should move. So why does it? Because the early Christians wanted to merge it with a pagan spring fertility festival to make it more popular. Yes, those Easter Eggs and Bunnies really do just represent fucking. Think about that the next time you bite into a Cadbury Cream filled one. ;)

Why do we have Christmas Trees? Same thing. Another pagan celebration celebrating the winter solstice and the tradition of Yule Logs.

200 years from now is Superman actually part of Christianity?

The reason I posted my original question the way I did was I was attempting to show how odd I think the whole thing was. What's next? Is Batman a Scientologist?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ianmdrennan 2]

Well, I didn't take away what you clearly did from the movie. I didn't get any religious feeling from the movie (but I can understand how some may try and draw the parallels) and, frankly, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill on this.

The Superman character has always been boring, to me, so I liked the move away from cannon (especially the ending) and in the irony in that while he was born free, he is still ultimately a slave to his destiny - the very fate his father was trying to save him from on Krypton.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[quade 3]

Well, regardless of all the religious stuff, Superman has a fundamental problem in that over the years various writers have made him progressively more indestructible and perfect. There's actually no drama in watching Superman because you know from the outside that unless Kryptonite is involved, he can't be beaten.

SPOILERS AHEAD - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

Now, we could talk about that ridiculous ending and how Superman canon says he NEVER kills anyone. Hmmm, he didn't seem to give a poo about so much obvious destruction that clearly would have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people. Okay, maybe that's "just" collateral damage, but it sure as hell doesn't explain the hands on approach to end the fight.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yeah, we need a spoiler tag/markup
I agree on the city leveling though - I had to laugh at that and while Zod and his crew were the instigators, ol' Supes didn't do a damn thing to take the fight elsewhere.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rehmwa 2]

ianmdrennan

Yeah, we need a spoiler tag/markup
I agree on the city leveling though - I had to laugh at that and while Zod and his crew were the instigators, ol' Supes didn't do a damn thing to take the fight elsewhere.

I appreciated that aspect, actually. They were trying to show the level of power that these beings had. It's a bit 1930ish to want the happy scene where bystanders aren't hurt at all by a conflict of that scope. A more gritty portrayal was warranted and I thought they pulled it off well.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[primetime 18]

I agree with Quade. The JC references were quite overt.

33 years old? Check.

Bearded martyr? Check again.

Product of a miracle birth? Yup.

The only thing missing was the sandals...

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

33 years old? Check.

ok...so? Yes I know legend has it that JC was 33. Didn't realize he had a monopoly on it.

Quote

Bearded martyr? Check again.

Clean shaven as superman.

Quote

Product of a miracle birth? Yup.

Not accurate at all. Product of a NATURAL birth. In our futures, probably a rare event to come too. Not a miracle, just the way it was intended to be.

I still think you guys are strrrreeeetching. I mean, I can see WHY people would see those parallels and make those connections, but that seems more to me like they're projecting the intent they want to see (good or bad).

I'm going to watch it again tomorrow
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Kennedy 0]

primetime

I agree with Quade. The JC references were quite overt.

33 years old? Check.
Bearded martyr? Check again.
Product of a miracle birth? Yup.
The only thing missing was the sandals...

Lots of characters are 33 years old.
Beards as big, but I thought he looked stupid. I was glad he shaved it.
What miracle? Avoiding prescribed genetic engineering for proscribed natural birth is hardly miraculous.

I don't know he the director chose to add JC references (if he did, I have read up on it). The parts referenced here mostly fit with the flow of the story. The only thing that really bugged me was the floating in the water after the oil rig.
Besides, how JC was the twist to avoid collateral deaths? Not so much.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Andy9o8 0]

primetime

I agree with Quade. The JC references were quite overt.

33 years old? Check.

Bearded martyr? Check again.

Product of a miracle birth? Yup.

Conveniently portayed as a pasty-faced Euro-Caucasian? Check.

[rehmwa 2]

Andy9o8

***I agree with Quade. The JC references were quite overt.

33 years old? Check.

Bearded martyr? Check again.

Product of a miracle birth? Yup.

Conveniently portayed as a pasty-faced Euro-Caucasian? Check.

Demolition Man - Sylvestor Stallone

1 - mid 30's - Check
2 - wakes up from suspended animation - Check
3 - saves humanity - check
4 - has an evil nemesis from the past - check
5 - once had a beard - check
6 - has stood with his arms out - check
7 - forbidden girlfriend - check


OH THE HUMANITY!!!!
what will the Europeans think of us and our social/religious fanaticism? We might not get into the 'special' club of snotty judgmentalism.

Pretty much every single adoption theme the nice adopted parent makes a comment about them having 'another father'. But Kevin Costner did deliver the "Of course I'm your father" scene really well.

I'm pretty sure in the Lethal Weapons, both Mel Gibson and Danny Glover were hung up on a structure and tortured as well at various points. Of course, Mel has an insidious agenda as we all know. I suspect Danny has been subverted by the religious right over the last three decades.


the theme are used EVERYWHERE - it's a comfortable symbolism in the culture - and that's what's really bugging some people.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 0]

Nice imitation of ChrisD, and that's ok.

I was making an I-hoped-humorous tangential reference to how Euro-centric art and culture continues to portray images of Jesus of Nazareth as having the skin and features of a European, rather than what Nazarenes of the time probably looked like, which is not too much different than, say, most Palestinian Arabs of today. But I amuse myself. That's ok, too.