NBA center Jason Collins is coming out

[jclalor 12]

The first professional athlete of a major sport to come out while still playing.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/

[NWFlyer 2]

He's getting a lot of high-profile support, too, which I think will go a long way for helping get this to the point where a few years from now we'll all wonder what the big deal was after all.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Southern_Man 0]

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a few years from now we'll all wonder what the big deal was after all.

We may already be a good bit of the way there. I am on another message board where a lot of mainstream sports topics are discussed. A couple of threads started there just about immediately sank to the bottom of the page. Nobody really cares to talk about it. I think that's a good thing.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[BillyVance 34]

He definitely won't go through the crap Jackie Robinson had to go through, and that's a good thing. Sure, it won't be all peachy and smooth to start with.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

non-issue here

people's private lives are theirs to live as they wish

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,772]

>people's private lives are theirs to live as they wish

Definitely.

Seems like there are four stages to the elimination of any such discrimination:

1) "No gays allowed" (in sports, boy scouts, military etc)
2) "OK we'll allow them" (with bigoted caveats about how there will have to be gay sex barracks etc)
3) "GI Joe is gay! He's a hero for admitting that in today's anti-gay blah blah"
4) No one cares any more.

4) is where you want to get, but generally you have to go through 1 to 3 to get there.

[jakee 1,379]

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The first professional athlete of a major sport to come out while still playing.

First professional athlete of a parochial American sport, maybe, but not the first of any major sport

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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>people's private lives are theirs to live as they wish

Definitely.

Seems like there are four stages to the elimination of any such discrimination:

1) "No gays allowed" (in sports, boy scouts, military etc)
2) "OK we'll allow them" (with bigoted caveats about how there will have to be gay sex barracks etc)
3) "GI Joe is gay! He's a hero for admitting that in today's anti-gay blah blah"
4) No one cares any more.

4) is where you want to get, but generally you have to go through 1 to 3 to get there.

seems easier to just skip to 4.

2 and 3 are so very obnoxious and pointless - and I suspect both 2 and 3 result in a lot less people getting to 4 as briskly as they'd normally be inclined to


I actually operate under the assumption that the 1's and 3's are just assholes

and the 2's are those that are actually 4's that just have a lot of 1's in their social circles so they make a little fuss so they can get invited to card club


it's a theory

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[regulator 0]

This just in..

who fucking cares?

[jakee 1,379]

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2 and 3 are so very obnoxious and pointless - and I suspect both 2 and 3 result in a lot less people getting to 4 as briskly as they'd normally be inclined to

In the course of human history how many civil rights breakthroughs have been achieved by people knuckling under and keeping their mouths shut?

I'll see your pointless and raise you a naive.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

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2 and 3 are so very obnoxious and pointless - and I suspect both 2 and 3 result in a lot less people getting to 4 as briskly as they'd normally be inclined to

In the course of human history how many civil rights breakthroughs have been achieved by people knuckling under and keeping their mouths shut?

I'll see your pointless and raise you a naive.

ahh, nicely stated and well delivered.

the point is more about how decent people are. But, absolutely I agree with you, the entrenched die hards need to go through growing pains.

I'm more inclined to worry about those that have some brains. You can midwife the rest if you relate better to them.

I'm a bigger fan of composed and confident and doing the right thing without being poked by sharp goad.
You're a bigger fan of obnoxious and in your face and pushy evolution.

not a big surprise

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,772]

>2 and 3 are so very obnoxious and pointless

Well, 2 is needed. You have to change things if you want change, and there is always resistance to change.

3 always gets overblown, with all the "heroes" and whatnot. (Yes, what many of them did took courage, but so does just raising a family.)

[jakee 1,379]

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I'm a bigger fan of composed and confident and doing the right thing without being poked by sharp goad.

Speaking of goading, your abilty to restate the conversation in the most pernicious terms remains as sharp as ever

Tell me though, which part of Mr Collins's statement seemed to you to be neither composed, nor confident, or just the wrong thing to do?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

He made a statement? good for him.

If he lives his life as best he can is the best statement that he, or anyone, can ever make. Glad he's doing that.



and....

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Speaking of goading, your abilty to restate the conversation in the most pernicious terms remains as sharp as ever

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I'll see your pointless and raise you a naive

well played sir

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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took courage, but so does just raising a family.)

all moms and dads are 'heroes'...there, I said it. Even the ones that don't do a good job, or sell their kids for crack, or put them to work in coal mines.

do I win something?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Southern_Man 0]

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The first professional athlete of a major sport to come out while still playing.

First professional athlete of a parochial American sport, maybe, but not the first of any major sport

To even remotely make it accurate you have to modify it with male. Among others Billie Jean King, Martina Navratalova, Megan Rapinoe, Brittney Griner, Sheryl Swoopes, Lisa Raymond, and a host of other American female athletes have been out, some of them for a very long time. Several prominent American males in individual sports have been out as well--Greg Louganis and Johny Weir are two that come to mind.

Not sure why being male and sharing a locker room with teammates makes it so much different, but it appears to be different.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Andy9o8 1]

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3 always gets overblown

I suppose it's on topic.

[jakee 1,379]

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He made a statement? good for him.

Huh. Thought you'd have at least found out what the thread was about before jumping in all guns blazing.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[NWFlyer 2]

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He made a statement? good for him.

If he lives his life as best he can is the best statement that he, or anyone, can ever make. Glad he's doing that.

Unfortunately, we still are at the point where a professional athlete in a major revenue sport in the U.S. being gay is news. Collins had two choices; continue to live his life closeted, or live his life openly.

Being a public figure, making choice #2 then offers him two more options. Wait until some news source decides that they're going to make it "news" and does so on their terms, or choose the source, choose the message, and make it a positive discussion on his terms. I rather liked his approach, because if you read it, it's actually very personal and low-key and he underplays the "hero" role quite credibly.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Southern_Man 0]

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He made a statement? good for him.

If he lives his life as best he can is the best statement that he, or anyone, can ever make. Glad he's doing that.

Unfortunately, we still are at the point where a professional athlete in a major revenue sport in the U.S. being gay is news. Collins had two choices; continue to live his life closeted, or live his life openly.

Being a public figure, making choice #2 then offers him two more options. Wait until some news source decides that they're going to make it "news" and does so on their terms, or choose the source, choose the message, and make it a positive discussion on his terms. I rather liked his approach, because if you read it, it's actually very personal and low-key and he underplays the "hero" role quite credibly.

It is a well written article and he comes across very well in it.

I believe his demeanor and statements are likely to cause people to say, "good for him, I don't really care." which is probably the best thing in the long run.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[rehmwa 2]

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He made a statement? good for him.

Huh. Thought you'd have at least found out what the thread was about before jumping in all guns blazing.

no, it's not guns blazing.

Here's my take on it.

1 - society is ready for #4. Some people aren't, but society is.

2 - #2 and #3 is getting milked for all it's worth. and 4 is being delayed

3 - If the athlete felt scared to live his life. Then that's on him, not society.

4 - If he wants to live his life, then he should just do it. The need for everybody to have a press conference is silly - IMHO see my first and second point.

5 - I'm not about the big picture, I'm private and personal. Thus - Live your life, quietly and the best you can. It's not about society, or the press, or anyone like that accepting him. It's down to his friends and family only. He can't change them - if they support or don't. He can only change his life. He'll get a lot of traction when it comes up naturally instead of force feeding it. "Hey, those two basketball groupies want to take us home"...."they aren't my type"... "Seriously? what is your type" .... "That guy over there"....."Oh...I didn't know" .... "I don't think it's a big deal, it's just me"....."OK, but it'll be hard to find a brother/sister combo for us to hit on"..."haha"

there, that's a more likely dialogue (at least in my social circle) than any other option

understated, live your life, don't let things you don't control affect your choices

that's #4

there you have it - for others, it's more urgent, or more big picture. I just don't see it that way. YMMV

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Collins had two choices; continue to live his life closeted, or live his life openly.

he had a third choice - life his life as he sees fit. no need for fanfare, just live his life the best he knows

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NWFlyer 2]

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Collins had two choices; continue to live his life closeted, or live his life openly.

he had a third choice - life his life as he sees fit. no need for fanfare, just live his life the best he knows

I see that as the same as my second choice. But because he is a public figure, he also chose to break the "news" on his own terms. I get where you're coming from - that this really shouldn't BE news, but right now it still is.

An interesting comparison in the "public figure" realm is how Hollywood/media folk are addressing it lately. It used to be (and still is for some) that coming out required a People magazine cover and an official announcement. Now, it's just as likely that someone will live their life openly but never make any official pronouncement; instead, they might just make a casual reference to their partner in an interview, or bring a same-sex date to a red carpet event. That area of "public figure" (Hollywood/media) is farther

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jakee 1,379]

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1 - society is ready for #4. Some people aren't, but society is.

And society got to that point by people knuckling under and keeping their mouths shut? If the answer is yes, I refer you back to the comment you've already taken offence to; if no, then it's unrealistic to expect the people involved to recognise the exact point in time that you think increased exposure is less helpful than quiet acceptance and instantly re-adjust.

Second, society in general may be ready, but what about his corner of it? He is still the first male professional in a major team sport in the US to be openly gay while playing. That is, pretty much by definition, a boundary to cross. Transferring Bill's four point plan to your thought process seems likely to give a result something like this -

1) Bigotry.
2) Silence.
3) Silence.
4) Sunshine and lollipops.

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4 - If he wants to live his life, then he should just do it. The need for everybody to have a press conference is silly - IMHO see my first and second point.

He's not everyone, he's the first guy in his situation. Not the first to hold a press conference, the first to let it be known at all. BTW, I look forward to seeing you spend several posts complaining about Tiger Woods and Lindsey Vonn hurting the cause of straight relationships by issuing a press statement that they were dating, 'cos that's probably also something you don't care about either way.

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there, that's a more likely dialogue (at least in my social circle) than any other option

Sure, but you're not gay, don't live your life in the public eye and probably don't currently work in an industry that has never seen a single openly gay worker, so the comparison is of limited value.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,772]

>he had a third choice - life his life as he sees fit. no need for fanfare, just live his life
>the best he knows

That seems to be what he's doing. In his words: "I'll lead by example and show that gay players are no different from straight ones." The press, however, is making a stink.