billvon 2,473 #51 December 7, 2009 >with karmic accounting workers can still be laid off - but they will still >have a 'karmic claim' on the ceos estate so that at least they don't >lose everything. Sounds like the laid off employees will have a way to pull the company down even faster, and make sure everyone is laid off! OTOH if it's voluntary, then CEO's and workers can decide whether or not to participate. I wouldn't, but perhaps there are people who would. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #52 December 7, 2009 Quote>with karmic accounting workers can still be laid off - but they will still >have a 'karmic claim' on the ceos estate so that at least they don't >lose everything. Sounds like the laid off employees will have a way to pull the company down even faster, and make sure everyone is laid off! OTOH if it's voluntary, then CEO's and workers can decide whether or not to participate. I wouldn't, but perhaps there are people who would. isn't all libertarianism voluntary?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #53 December 7, 2009 >isn't all libertarianism voluntary? Well, since libertarianism is a form of government, and government has to make _some_ things mandatory (like laws against murder, voting laws etc) then no, a libertarian government would not be 100% voluntary. However, there would likely be many fewer mandates under a libertarian government. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #54 December 8, 2009 Quote>OTOH if it's voluntary, then CEO's and workers can decide whether or not to participate. I wouldn't, but perhaps there are people who would. If the proposal is a voluntary action on the owner's part (i.e., he can decide whatever he wants to put in his last will and testement) - then this whole thread is even more a waste of time. If the owner wants to will his property to his kids - I'm fine with that If the owner wants to will his property to his employees - I'm fine with that If the owner wants to will his property to his cat, give it to charity, or put it in a giant pile and let it get rained on until it melts - I'm fine with that the common point here is that the guy gets to decide what happens to HIS stuff, body, money, etc\ ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #55 December 8, 2009 Quote>isn't all libertarianism voluntary? Well, since libertarianism is a form of government, and government has to make _some_ things mandatory (like laws against murder, voting laws etc) then no, a libertarian government would not be 100% voluntary. However, there would likely be many fewer mandates under a libertarian government. i think this strand of libertarianism is more widely known as 'minarchism'.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #56 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote >OTOH if it's voluntary, then CEO's and workers can decide whether or not to participate. I wouldn't, but perhaps there are people who would. If the proposal is a voluntary action on the owner's part (i.e., he can decide whatever he wants to put in his last will and testement) - then this whole thread is even more a waste of time. If the owner wants to will his property to his kids - I'm fine with that If the owner wants to will his property to his employees - I'm fine with that If the owner wants to will his property to his cat, give it to charity, or put it in a giant pile and let it get rained on until it melts - I'm fine with that the common point here is that the guy gets to decide what happens to HIS stuff, body, money, etc\ with a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will - his or her wealth will be automatically distributed to all those who helped create it. the owner's children will also know that they won't be able to mooch off unearned wealth but will have to make their own, entrepreneurial, way in the world stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #57 December 8, 2009 Quotewith a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will Doesn't have to worry about a will if that's the way he wants his wealth to be distributed and if everyone involved can agree on the proportion of their input into the wealth creation and therefore the proportion of reward they deserve. Yep, that's going to happen...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #58 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuotewith a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will Doesn't have to worry about a will if that's the way he wants his wealth to be distributed and if everyone involved can agree on the proportion of their input into the wealth creation and therefore the proportion of reward they deserve. the karmic input into wealth creation is the actual hours worked for the employer (worktime). a simple case would be an entrepreneur who employs a hundred workers. each worker, if they had worked the same hours, would then receive 1% of the estate.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #59 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuotewith a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will Doesn't have to worry about a will if that's the way he wants his wealth to be distributed and if everyone involved can agree on the proportion of their input into the wealth creation and therefore the proportion of reward they deserve. the karmic input into wealth creation is the actual hours worked for the employer (worktime). a simple case would be an entrepreneur who employs a hundred workers. each worker, if they had worked the same hours, would then receive 1% of the estate. That's stupid. All jobs are not equal, which is why all jobs are not paid the same in the first place. Has the guy who sweeps the floor in the factory had the same input into wealth creation as the engineer who designed the production process?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #60 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote with a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will Doesn't have to worry about a will if that's the way he wants his wealth to be distributed and if everyone involved can agree on the proportion of their input into the wealth creation and therefore the proportion of reward they deserve. the karmic input into wealth creation is the actual hours worked for the employer (worktime). a simple case would be an entrepreneur who employs a hundred workers. each worker, if they had worked the same hours, would then receive 1% of the estate. That's stupid. All jobs are not equal, which is why all jobs are not paid the same in the first place. Has the guy who sweeps the floor in the factory had the same input into wealth creation as the engineer who designed the production process? different jobs are paid in different fiat amounts - which is all fine and good at whatever the current market fiat rate is. karmic accounting adds up the actual hours you have worked for others and values each worktime hour (engineer or floor sweeper) as karmically equal stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #61 December 8, 2009 Quotekarmic accounting adds up the actual hours you have worked for others and values each worktime hour (engineer or floor sweeper) as karmically equal Again, that's stupid. Does it take into account how difficult and demanding each respective hour of work is? No. Does it take into account the time it takes to reach the point of being able to do that hours work (at least 4 years of expensive university tuition for an MEng vs 4 minutes training on how to use a broom)? No. Does it take into account the uniqueness and added value to the company of each person's contribution during that hour of work? No. It's rubbish. Even if you buy into the concept of 'karmically' splitting a companies wealth between those who contributed it, it is insane to argue that each person contributed an equal amount, 'karmically' or otherwise, during each hour of work.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #62 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote karmic accounting adds up the actual hours you have worked for others and values each worktime hour (engineer or floor sweeper) as karmically equal Again, that's stupid. Does it take into account how difficult and demanding each respective hour of work is? No. Does it take into account the time it takes to reach the point of being able to do that hours work (at least 4 years of expensive university tuition for an MEng vs 4 minutes training on how to use a broom)? No. Does it take into account the uniqueness and added value to the company of each person's contribution during that hour of work? No. It's rubbish. Even if you buy into the concept of 'karmically' splitting a companies wealth between those who contributed it, it is insane to argue that each person contributed an equal amount, 'karmically' or otherwise, during each hour of work. the current fiat 'wage' takes into account all the factors you list - training, experience, skill. karmic accounting takes each hour of worktime (added up throughout the workers life for different employers) and values it as a basic currency - which is all we've really got if you think about it. not gold or fiat money but our ability to work stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #63 December 8, 2009 Quotekarmic accounting takes each hour of worktime (added up throughout the workers life for different employers) and values it as a basic currency Which is why it's stupid.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #64 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuotekarmic accounting takes each hour of worktime (added up throughout the workers life for different employers) and values it as a basic currency Which is why it's stupid. what other basic currency do we have?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #65 December 8, 2009 QuoteQuotekarmic accounting takes each hour of worktime (added up throughout the workers life for different employers) and values it as a basic currency Which is why it's stupid. still stupid - a "voluntary" action by the owner to have his will state he'll use this process. The process is apparently defined by Dreamdancer as the default if the owner won't define it explicitly in the will........ ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #66 December 8, 2009 Quote with a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will - his or her wealth will be automatically distributed to all those who helped create it. the owner's children will also know that they won't be able to mooch off unearned wealth but will have to make their own, entrepreneurial, way in the world then this absolutely doesn't read as "voluntary" then this reads as some horrible proposal of a law to force it on everyone or, it will drive more people to make very explicit wills to avoid this pile of crap still stupid ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d16842 0 #67 December 8, 2009 Quote the current fiat 'wage' takes into account all the factors you list - training, experience, skill. karmic accounting takes each hour of worktime (added up throughout the workers life for different employers) and values it as a basic currency - which is all we've really got if you think about it. not gold or fiat money but our ability to work Gee, and all these years of recruiting, interviewing, and hiring people, I thought we had to set their salary at whatever wage the job market required to attract the workforce we needed. The supply and demand thing. It doesn't matter much how long it takes to train someone in a field, if there are tons of them unemployed in the area, they are going to be cheap. And skilled workers, with or without college, who are in very short supply, are going to be expensive.Tom B Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #68 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote the current fiat 'wage' takes into account all the factors you list - training, experience, skill. karmic accounting takes each hour of worktime (added up throughout the workers life for different employers) and values it as a basic currency - which is all we've really got if you think about it. not gold or fiat money but our ability to work Gee, and all these years of recruiting, interviewing, and hiring people, I thought we had to set their salary at whatever wage the job market required to attract the workforce we needed. The supply and demand thing. It doesn't matter much how long it takes to train someone in a field, if there are tons of them unemployed in the area, they are going to be cheap. And skilled workers, with or without college, who are in very short supply, are going to be expensive. the current fiat salary can still be set as the market dictates so that side of the equation isn't affected at all. however, for karmic accounting purposes, one hour of worktime is one hour of worktime - no matter who does it.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #69 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote with a karmic accounting system the owner doesn't have to worry about a will - his or her wealth will be automatically distributed to all those who helped create it. the owner's children will also know that they won't be able to mooch off unearned wealth but will have to make their own, entrepreneurial, way in the world then this absolutely doesn't read as "voluntary" then this reads as some horrible proposal of a law to force it on everyone or, it will drive more people to make very explicit wills to avoid this pile of crap still stupid it's all voluntary stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #70 December 8, 2009 Quote it's all voluntary the second you wrote "automatically", then the whole premise of voluntary became a bald faced lie ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #71 December 8, 2009 Quote Quote it's all voluntary the second you wrote "automatically", then the whole premise of voluntary became a bald faced lie it's 'automatic' in the same way that a spreadsheet is automatic. once the last of the karmic credits are inputted then the karmic 'balances' can be automatically worked out and paid out of the estate. no lawyers, accountants, or irs needed stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #72 December 8, 2009 >once the last of the karmic credits are inputted then the karmic >'balances' can be automatically worked out and paid out of the >estate. Riiiight. And what if the CEO dies while the company is in debt, and he has a negative equity level? (which is easy to do if you want to make it happen.) Should each worker be charged the same percentage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #73 December 8, 2009 Quote>once the last of the karmic credits are inputted then the karmic >'balances' can be automatically worked out and paid out of the >estate. Riiiight. And what if the CEO dies while the company is in debt, and he has a negative equity level? (which is easy to do if you want to make it happen.) Should each worker be charged the same percentage? if there is no estate there can be no karmic payout.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #74 December 8, 2009 >if there is no estate there can be no karmic payout. ?? No - I am saying there is an estate, and it has negative value. In more pedestrian terms, it's like a house with an upside-down mortgage - you owe more on the mortgage than the house is worth. If that's what the workers inherited, how much would they have to pay each? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #75 December 8, 2009 Quote>if there is no estate there can be no karmic payout. ?? No - I am saying there is an estate, and it has negative value. In more pedestrian terms, it's like a house with an upside-down mortgage - you owe more on the mortgage than the house is worth. If that's what the workers inherited, how much would they have to pay each? an estate with negative fiat value is no estate and there is no karmic payout.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
