falxori 0 #26 March 10, 2009 Quoteare you sure? in simple words, yes, I am sure. 2 things: - it's not suprising that some Jews would have such a complex. Jews were prosecuted like no other nation starting from the early church who wanted to deifferentiate the newly formed religion from Judaism and all the way to Nazi Germany. If such a complex exists, it would be justified. - there are articles and research about anything supporting any view you want to promote. Israel's attack on Gaza came after Hamas broke the cease fire repeatedly and after years of rockets flying out of Gaza. you want to call it a "victim complex"? go for it. you're just putting a spin on a very simple situation. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #27 March 10, 2009 QuoteJews were prosecuted like no other nation. what about the romanies? or the armenians?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #28 March 10, 2009 Quotewhat about the romanies? or the armenians? what about them? they have pretty good reasons (even if in a different, shorter scenario) to feel victimized as well. Israel had every right to operate in Gaza following the rockets and violation of the cease fire. if you want to say that this self defense instinct is stronger because of historic events, so be it. It still doens't make it wrong. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #29 March 10, 2009 QuoteIsrael had every right to operate in Gaza following the rockets and violation of the cease fire. did they have a right to collective punishment and war crimes?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #30 March 10, 2009 Quotedid they have a right to collective punishment and war crimes? as defiened by the rules of engagement, when military operation (e.g rocket launching) is conducted in civilian areas. these areas become legitimate targets. Israel keeps providing Gaza with humanitarian supplies and power eventhough Gaza is ruled by a hostile government. show me any other instance in the history of war... "war crimes" is a big word often used here by people who don't understand the meaning of it nor they know what is actually going on. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #31 March 10, 2009 Quote"war crimes" is a big word often used here by people who don't understand the meaning of it nor they know what is actually going on. Quote"The Israeli authorities deny everything, so one has to prove what happened in a way that you don't need to do with the Palestinian rockets," said Donatella Rovera, of Amnesty International. Among the questions being raised are whether Israel used disproportionate force and failed to protect civilians. In one case, Israeli artillery fire was directed close to a UN school where hundreds of Gazans had sought refuge, killing 42 people. Israel said its troops were responding to fire from militants near the school. In another instance, Gazans allege Israeli soldiers ordered 110 civilians into a warehouse, then shelled it the next day, killing 30. Israel denies the army targeted the warehouse, saying the building was hit during intense combat with militants in that area. The UN, the EU and other organisations accuse Israel of using indiscriminate force, particularly in hits on UN buildings and Gaza's civilian infrastructure. Israel has also been criticised for using white phosphorus weapons, which can be legitimately used in war to create smoke screens or provide illumination, but which Fred Abrahams of Human Rights Watch said can indiscriminately burn civilians and constitute a war crime. Doctors reported phosphorus burns throughout the war. "The suspected war crimes make for a very long list," said Jessica Montell, head of B'Tselem. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/04/gaza-prosecution-israel-hamasstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #32 March 10, 2009 ok, here we go... Quotewhether Israel used disproportionate force and failed to protect civilians. maybe israel should do the same as Hamas and just fire random rockets targeting civilian towns? QuoteIn one case, Israeli artillery fire was directed close to a UN school where hundreds of Gazans had sought refuge again, if Hamas was launching rockets or mortar shells from the compound, it is no longer civilian. are you suprised they use schools and UN buildings as cover? look up the elementry school they've rigged with explosives. that's their MO Quote Doctors reported phosphorus burns throughout the war. funny, I remember a report by a western docter (Italian, I think) who was in the hospital in Gaza and said he didnt see anything that would suggest that. you can look up the "jennin masacare" where the Palestinians initially reported hundreds of civilians dead. only later (after Israel got bashed, it turned out to be ~50, over 40 of which were armed terrorists. so yeah, the Palestinian PR is a good one... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #33 March 10, 2009 do you think the palestinians will ever get a fair state of their own?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #34 March 10, 2009 Quotedo you think the palestinians will ever get a fair state of their own? I sure hope so. it all depends on the definition of "fair". what Israel considers "giving up a lot" is considered as "not enough" by moderate Palestinians while Hamas in Gaza doesnt even recognizes Israel's right to exist. it's not going to be easy but I would say that most Israelis are willing to give up parts of their homeland if they feel there will be peace. sadly, whenever Israel pulled out, it didnt get any quiet in return... so yeah, I think so. otherwise we're all doomed. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #35 March 10, 2009 the palestinians want a right of return for their refugees, jerusalem as their capital (shared with israel) and a return to 1967 borders. does this constitute a fair state in your opinion. and if not, why not?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #36 March 10, 2009 Quotethe palestinians want a right of return for their refugees, jerusalem as their capital (shared with israel) and a return to 1967 borders. does this constitute a fair state in your opinion. and if not, why not? this is very simplistic, but... as far as land goes, yes, I would be ok with them getting the west bank and Gaza with some creative arrangement in Jerusalem (especially for the holy places). as far as refugees, they need to settle in the newly formed Palestinian state. just like I'm not going to get my family's house in Hebron that was taken by force in the 1937 riots, and like the almost million jews who were kicked out of the arab countries when Israel was formed. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #37 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuotethe palestinians want a right of return for their refugees, jerusalem as their capital (shared with israel) and a return to 1967 borders. does this constitute a fair state in your opinion. and if not, why not? this is very simplistic, but... as far as land goes, yes, I would be ok with them getting the west bank and Gaza with some creative arrangement in Jerusalem (especially for the holy places). as far as refugees, they need to settle in the newly formed Palestinian state. just like I'm not going to get my family's house in Hebron that was taken by force in the 1937 riots, and like the almost million jews who were kicked out of the arab countries when Israel was formed. so the refugees can't return, no return to 1967 borders and you're not going to share jerusalem?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #38 March 10, 2009 Quotethe palestinians want a right of return for their refugees, jerusalem as their capital (shared with israel) and a return to 1967 borders. does this constitute a fair state in your opinion. and if not, why not? The Arabs...and Palistinians are very very stupid people. They have kept attacking Israel and the Jews since before your lot saw the wisdom of leaving. Life sucks.. you attack people and you lose the war... you are lucky if you are still alive to hopefully make peace and build a future. I would think a smart people would make peace... rather than continuing to attack the people they hate so much and want to wipe from the face of the earth.. and then keep losing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #39 March 10, 2009 QuoteLife sucks.. you attack people and you lose the war. and then you gather your forces and wage another war - is this not the western way?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #40 March 10, 2009 did you even read what I wrote? i said yes to 1967 borders (this was pretty much agreed on in 2000 already) I said yes to Jerusalem, but not in the way of building a dividing wall in the city like it was pre 1967, but a more creative solution. and no, no refugees inside Israel, they'll need to settle in Palestine, like the jewish refugees found refuge in Israel. otherwise you will solve nothing. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #41 March 10, 2009 i read it. it mentioned gaza and the west bank but not the land of the 1967 border. you definitely say no to the return of the refugees. your 'creative' solution to jerusalem may be ok - need more details. will the palestinians be able to claim it as their capital (shared with israel)?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #42 March 10, 2009 Quotei read it. it mentioned gaza and the west bank but not the land of the 1967 border. which shows how clueless you really are... 1967 borders is the west bank (used to be Jordanian) and Gaza (used to be Egyptian), leaving the Golan which is not related to the palestinian issue. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #43 March 10, 2009 Quotei read it. it mentioned gaza and the west bank but not the land of the 1967 border. you definitely say no to the return of the refugees. your 'creative' solution to jerusalem may be ok - need more details. will the palestinians be able to claim it as their capital (shared with israel)? Here this might help you. Information of how this situation came to be is rather instructive.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel in 1948-1951, 600,000 by 1972.[1][2][3] The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left due to physical and political insecurity.[4] Most were forced to abandon their property.[2] By 2002 these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population.[3] The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion[5][6] and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). [1][6] OOPS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #44 March 10, 2009 Quote 1967 borders is the west bank (used to be Jordanian) and Gaza (used to be Egyptian), leaving the Golan which is not related to the palestinian issue. and the settlements - will you give back that land? QuoteAt the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_warstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #45 March 10, 2009 Quoteand the settlements - will you give back that land? it will be discussed as part of a peace treaty. mostl likely some will be removed and some will be annexed to Israel in exchange to lands elsewhere (i.e land swaps)/ Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yeah, ok, and? the sinai was given back to egypt as part of a peace treaty (they didnt want Gaza...) and east jerusalem is in the west bank. I dont know what was your point... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #46 March 10, 2009 QuoteHere this might help you. and back to you... QuoteClaims are made that Jews emigrated either because of the influence of Zionism or due to persecution by Arab countries, however as no surveys were taken at the time and as the one does not contradict the other it is not possible to effectively separate the two causes. There are controversial claims about the methods employed by Israeli officials in their attempts to stimulate emigration to Israel. Gilbert (1999) and Hirst (1977) write that Israeli agents planted bombs in synagogues and Jewish businesses. On the other hand, Historian Moshe Gat contends that, in the most famous case in Iraq, the claim that the bombings were carried out by Zionists is contrary to the evidence, and in any event the impetus for the Jewish-Iraqi exodus was the imminent expiration of the denaturalisation law, not the bombing. According to Norman Stillman, "neither side, however, has provided truly convincing evidence, and for any detached observer the point must remain moot." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_landsstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #47 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteHere this might help you. and back to you... QuoteClaims are made that Jews emigrated either because of the influence of Zionism or due to persecution by Arab countries, however as no surveys were taken at the time and as the one does not contradict the other it is not possible to effectively separate the two causes. There are controversial claims about the methods employed by Israeli officials in their attempts to stimulate emigration to Israel. Gilbert (1999) and Hirst (1977) write that Israeli agents planted bombs in synagogues and Jewish businesses. On the other hand, Historian Moshe Gat contends that, in the most famous case in Iraq, the claim that the bombings were carried out by Zionists is contrary to the evidence, and in any event the impetus for the Jewish-Iraqi exodus was the imminent expiration of the denaturalisation law, not the bombing. According to Norman Stillman, "neither side, however, has provided truly convincing evidence, and for any detached observer the point must remain moot." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands Yeah I am sure you are all over those" controversial claims" . I hear some other "controversial claims" are espoused by Ahmedinijihad like the Holocaust never happened.. I hear that is a popular opinion in Britain these days.... by certain anti-semitic people who are STILL butt hurt at having to leave in 1948. That still does not explain a historic death toll among jews in coutries other than their own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #48 March 11, 2009 Quotethe Holocaust never happened. are you sure? QuoteHolocaust The persecution of the Romanies reached a peak during World War II in the Porajmos, the genocide perpetrated by the Nazis during the Holocaust. In 1935, the Nuremberg laws stripped the Romani people living in Nazi Germany of their citizenship, after which they were subjected to violence, imprisonment in concentration camps and later genocide in extermination camps. The policy was extended in areas occupied by the Nazis during the war, and it was also applied by their allies, notably the Independent State of Croatia, Romania and Hungary. Because no accurate pre-war census figures exist for the Roma, it is impossible to accurately assess the actual number of victims. Ian Hancock, director of the Program of Romani Studies at The University of Texas at Austin, proposes a figure of up to a million and a half, while an estimate of between 220,000 and 500,000 was made by the late Sybil Milton, formerly senior historian of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. In Central Europe, the extermination in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was so thorough that the Bohemian Romani language became totally extinct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanies#Historical_persecutionstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #49 March 11, 2009 Quotehurt at having to leave in 1948. i don't think we were wanted anymore... QuoteThe King David Hotel bombing was an attack by the right-wing Zionist underground movement, the Irgun, on the central offices of the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and Headquarters of the British Forces in Palestine and Transjordan, which were located at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The attack, carried out on 22 July 1946, was the deadliest directed against the British during the Mandate era (1920-1948). Mostly disguised in Arab costume, Irgunists planted a bomb in the basement of the main building of the hotel, under the wing which housed the Mandate Secretariat and part of the British military headquarters. Telephoned warnings were sent to the switchboard at the hotel's reception desk, the Palestine Post newspaper and the French consulate (though not directly to the Secretariat or military headquarters, which had separate switchboards). Despite the warnings, no evacuation was carried out. The ensuing explosion caused the collapse of the western half of the southern wing of the hotel. 91 people were killed and 46 were injured, with some of the deaths and injuries occurring in the road outside the hotel and in adjacent buildings. Due to the question of responsibility for the deaths, controversy has arisen over the timing and adequacy of these warnings and the reasons why the hotel was not evacuated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
