JackC 0
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kallend 1,635
Quote
Non-Christian sources mentioning Jesus:
Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9.
So there's a lot of hearsay, but still no evidence.
The existence of other historical figures have been established on less evidence. The real evidence for the existence of Christ is when you open the door of your mind and let Him in.
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Well, for starters the Tacitus reference is very clearly hearsay, as it includes the same ERROR as Josephus. It also is about the persecution of Christians by Nero, not about Jesus per se. If that's the best you've got...
Zeus and Athena get a lot of mention, too, from many different Greek and Roman sources. So by your criterion, these are real historical figures. All YOU have to do is open YOUR mind to them.
I'm told that Vishnu, Shiva and Ganesha get a lot of mention in Indian literature. They MUST be real! Open YOUR mind.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,635
QuoteQuoteI do know that the records of the gospel authors are held to unreasonable standards, standards not put on any other piece of literature or history.
I think Christians hold the Bible to unreasonably low standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the Bible falls well short.QuoteThird, I don't care how "smart" I look, Jack. I only care that I don't mislead anyone, or say anything that isn't based on fact/reality. You said I've "re-defined" words. What words are you referring to? "Eyewitness"? How have I re-defined it?
I'm sorry if you took offence but you are trying to mislead people. You objected to my points that the Bible was written after the fact and not by eye witnesses then proceed to state that it was actually written after the fact and not by eye witnesses. I don't know how you cannot see that.
Not only was it written after the fact, the writers had a very clear political agenda.
I'm told there's very good evidence in the Greek literature that Alexander the Great was the son of Zeus. Historical fact!
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteI do know that the records of the gospel authors are held to unreasonable standards, standards not put on any other piece of literature or history.
I think Christians hold the Bible to unreasonably low standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the Bible falls well short.QuoteThird, I don't care how "smart" I look, Jack. I only care that I don't mislead anyone, or say anything that isn't based on fact/reality. You said I've "re-defined" words. What words are you referring to? "Eyewitness"? How have I re-defined it?
I'm sorry if you took offence but you are trying to mislead people. You objected to my points that the Bible was written after the fact and not by eye witnesses then proceed to state that it was actually written after the fact and not by eye witnesses. I don't know how you cannot see that.
I will retrace my steps in the conversation to find out what you're talking about... You say I'm "trying to mislead people." Surely you must know that's not true at all; misleading people goes against my grain, which is why I study and read. My concern is NOT to mislead! If in fact I do mislead, I can only blame it on poor communication, not intent.
But as for holding the Bible to low standards, of course I couldn't disagree more. Many scholarly works have been written on biblical and textual criticism; I think we take it very seriously. I guess this is another point we'll have to disagree on. I admit I don't know everything, but I do study this aspect of Christianity a bit more than the average person. There's always more to learn and investigate. There's no end to learning, especially IMO, when it comes to the Bible.
Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
JackC 0
QuoteMy concern is NOT to mislead! If in fact I do mislead, I can only blame it on poor communication, not intent.
If you really mean that, why object to me saying the Bible was written after the fact and not by eye witnesses when you know I am correct?
QuoteBut as for holding the Bible to low standards, of course I couldn't disagree more.
If you hold the Bible to as high a standard as you think, what happens when you hold the Koran to the same standards? What about the Hindu Vedas? Homer's Iliad and Odyssey? What is it about the Bible that makes it valid when these others are not? Nothing, that's what.
kallend 1,635
QuoteQuoteQuoteChrist is also mentioned by non-Christian historians writing within 150 years of his life-- more historians mentioned Jesus than mentioned the Roman Emperor at the time, Tiberius Caesar.
Lists, please.
Non-Christian sources mentioning Jesus:
Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9.
Contemporary non Pastafarian sources mentioning the Flying Spaghetti Monster:
The dangers of creationism in education. Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly. Retrieved on 2007-10-22.
^ a b But Is There Intelligent Spaghetti Out There?. New York Times Arts article. Retrieved on 2007-02-05.
^ a b c d e f Henderson, Bobby (2005). Open Letter To Kansas School Board (HTML). Retrieved on 2007-01-09.
^ "Verbatim: Noodle This, Kansas", Washington Post, August 28, 2005.
^ Wolf, Gary. "The Church of the Non-Believers", Wired News, November 14, 2006.
^ Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. James Randi Educational Foundation article September 16, 2005. Retrieved on 2007-02-05.
^ Discussion of the Open Letter. Henderson, Bobby. Retrieved on 2007-04-07.
^ Kansas School Board Responses to the Open Letter. Henderson, Bobby (June 25 2005). Retrieved on 2006-01-09.
^ A Tangled Tale of a Pasta-based Prophet. Der Spiegel (2005-08-24). Retrieved on 2007-09-08. “[FSM] has certainly caught the imagination of the online community [...] Henderson receives over 150 emails from supporters every day.”
^ "The Flying Spaghetti Monster", New Scientist, August 6, 2005.
^ Rothschild, Scott. "Evolution debate creates monster", Lawrence Journal-World, August 24, 2005.
^ Boxer, Sarah. "But Is There Intelligent Spaghetti Out There?", New York Times, August 29, 2005.
^ a b 'Spaghetti Monster' is noodling around with faith. USA Today Science & Space article. Retrieved on 2007-02-05.
^ Boing Boing's $250,000 Intelligent Design challenge. BoingBoing.net (August 19 2005). Retrieved on 2006-06-11.
^ "Kansas Education Board First to Back "Intelligent Design"", Washington Post, November 9, 2005.
^ "Kansas board boosts evolution education", MSNBC, February 14, 2007.
^ Page, Clarence. "Keeping ID out of science classes", Dallas Morning News, November 15, 2005.
^ a b Wolff, Eric. "The Case For Intelligent Design: Spaghetti as the Creator", New York Magazine, November 16, 2005.
^ Bobby Henderson's blog: Work Expectation Value. Retrieved on 2008-02-07.
^ Religious scholars mull Flying Spaghetti Monster. AP (2007-11-16). Retrieved on 2007-11-16.
^ Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention AP November 17, 2007
^ John Chambliss. "Satirical Monsters More Competition for Darwin", The Ledger, 2007-12-11. Retrieved on 2007-12-13.
^ Thierman, Jessica. "Touched by his Noodly Appendage", Gelf Magazine, September 18, 2005.
^ Henderson, Bobby (2005). Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (HTML). Retrieved on 2006-06-11.
^ DuBay, Tim (2005). Guide to Pastafarianism (Shockwave Flash). Retrieved on 2006-08-26.
^ The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, p.83
^ Craig, Katleen. "Passion of the Spaghetti Monster", Wired News, December 22, 2005.
^ Billy Townsend (December 22, 2007). Polk Needled, Noodled In Evolution Flap. The Tampa Tribune. Retrieved on 2007-12-23.
^ http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/
^ New York Dolls — Dance Like a Monkey.
^ Citizen Times article on Bryan Killian's suspension.
^ Year in Science. Seed (2005-12-27). Retrieved on 2007-08-10.
^ The Flying Spaghetti Monster Holiday Pageant. Hunger Artists Theatre Company (December 2006). Retrieved on 2006-11-29.
^ Hunger Artists Theatre Company's 2008 Season. Hunger Artists Theatre Company (November 2007). Retrieved on 2007-11-16.
^ Recognition for Our Noodly Friend
^ Bekeren kan je leren (Dutch). Nederlandse Omroep Stichting (2007-08-03). Retrieved on 2007-08-06.
^ Flying Spaghetti Monster statue at Tennessee courthouse. CNET Networks, (April 2008). Retrieved on 2008-04-02.
^ Bob and George Comic from April 3, 2006.
^ CTRL ALT DEL Well technically... from August 27, 2005.
^ Best of Friends January 28,2008.
^ "Richard Dawkins / Salmon Farming", Science Friday, NPR, October 6, 2006. (English)
^ Warcrabs, accessed April 11, 2008.
Schofield, Jack. ""Intelligent Design" and Pastafarianism", Guardian Unlimited, August 20, 2005.
"Evolution Debate Spawns a Saucy Monster", Wichita Eagle, August 28, 2005.
"In the beginning there was the Flying Spaghetti Monster", Daily Telegraph, September 11, 2005.
"Flying Spaghetti Monster gains following", Associated Press, September 24, 2005.
Wolff, Eric. "The $80,000 Pasta Bible Jackpot for unemployed slot-machine engineer and heretic", New York Magazine, November 16, 2005.
Stroud, Emily. "Flying Spaghetti Monster Statue Displayed On Courthouse Lawn", WBIR-TV, March 25, 2008. Video
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteMy concern is NOT to mislead! If in fact I do mislead, I can only blame it on poor communication, not intent.
If you really mean that, why object to me saying the Bible was written after the fact and not by eye witnesses when you know I am correct?QuoteBut as for holding the Bible to low standards, of course I couldn't disagree more.
If you hold the Bible to as high a standard as you think, what happens when you hold the Koran to the same standards? What about the Hindu Vedas? Homer's Iliad and Odyssey? What is it about the Bible that makes it valid when these others are not? Nothing, that's what.
You may not know how good a question that really is. Read the Koran, Read the Odyssey, Read the Vedas, Read the Gospel, explore, seek, ask, or dont. One of the most important things about the truth is no one can reveal it to you. Many people have read the Gospel and received nothing out of it. Isaiah of the bible wrote some 800yrs before the birth of Jesus, that the secrets were going to be hidden in parables. Many theologists have studied the parables and have still not recieved the secrets.
I read the Gospel first and knew it was the truth. I had no idea that Jesus had been prophesied all throughout the old testament.
"We didn't start the fire"
Just read Revelations. Great reading. Funny thing about them is as you read you can project them over the current status of the world and let your imagination go. I'm personally giving all of my possesions away and preparing for the 2nd coming/ apocalyse. Or not. Wasn't it Jesse Ventura who stated that religion was a crutch for weak minded people? While I do believe in a greater power I am not going to exclusively rely on Him/, Her/, or It to save my ass in a tight situation. Prepare for the worst and a little luck doesn't hurt either. Amen brothers and sisters. I will be giving my next sermon at the bar in about 1 hour so put on your Sundays best and pull up a stool.
"whatcha doin with that lawn mower blade?"
DZJ 0
How many of those said that he was the son of [g/G]od?QuoteNon-Christian sources mentioning Jesus:
Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9.
maadmax 0
Well, for starters the Tacitus reference is very clearly hearsay, as it includes the same ERROR as Josephus. It also is about the persecution of Christians by Nero, not about Jesus per se. If that's the best you've got...***
These references are not for me, they are for you. And it is no surprise that nothing will be acceptable to you. Your mind is made up. The point being that Christians existed shortly after the reported death of Jesus. Many of these persecuted people Josephus describes were eye witnesses as the Bible describes.
I am happy with that. My evidence is based on life changing results. If something has all kinds of references like zeus, athena, and all of the other meaningless names you like to throw around but has no power to change my life, I really don't put a whole lot of credence into any of their mythology, which I have studied by the way. Take your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help.
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These references are not for me, they are for you. And it is no surprise that nothing will be acceptable to you. Your mind is made up. The point being that Christians existed shortly after the reported death of Jesus. Many of these persecuted people Josephus describes were eye witnesses as the Bible describes.
I am happy with that. My evidence is based on life changing results. If something has all kinds of references like zeus, athena, and all of the other meaningless names you like to throw around but has no power to change my life, I really don't put a whole lot of credence into any of their mythology, which I have studied by the way. Take your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help.
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jcd11235 0
QuoteTake your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help.
It is because of snide comments like these that many Christians find themselves at the losing end of intellectual debates about religion. If they dropped the holier than thou attitude they would find that most atheists are passive in their non-belief. They don't care that someone is a Christian. But when some Christians take it upon themselves to point out how Christianity is right, and everything non-Christian is wrong, they open themselves up to justified criticisms.
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QuoteJust read Revelations. Great reading. Funny thing about them is as you read you can project them over the current status of the world and let your imagination go. I'm personally giving all of my possesions away and preparing for the 2nd coming/ apocalyse. Or not. Wasn't it Jesse Ventura who stated that religion was a crutch for weak minded people? While I do believe in a greater power I am not going to exclusively rely on Him/, Her/, or It to save my ass in a tight situation. Prepare for the worst and a little luck doesn't hurt either. Amen brothers and sisters. I will be giving my next sermon at the bar in about 1 hour so put on your Sundays best and pull up a stool.
You cant see it, but I have a smile on my face right now! WHAT??? Jesse Ventura??? Yeah, theres someone I want to learn from, the philosophical WWF wrestler!! So I wonder if the "strong minded" people think it is wrong to love one another? What frustrates me so much about people like that is they dont see what they have as gifts, cause that means they would have to submit to something greater than themselves, Heaven forbid! I wonder if he ever gave a thought to give thanks that he was born free in america?? I wonder if he ever gave thanks for having the oprtotunity to progress in a free society, or if he ever gave thanks that there was food in his stomach, or for all body parts working properly? The point is that no one gave themselves the things they have, the things we have were born from the opprotunitys we had. PERIOD.
There are millions who will never feel the comfort of air conditioning, or 3 meals a day, or freedom period. They are oppressed, persecuted, enslaved, starved. Most of them believe in God. I think people should naturally be thankful for the things they have whether they believe in God or not. His statement of anyone being weak minded, means that he believes himself to not be. This is the fundamental foundation of pride and ego. Let me guess, hard work will get you there?? Wrong. There has to be opprotunity, and opprotunity is a gift. So to me the governor may be great in politics (I dont know) and there is no doubt he can throw me through the wall and infiltrate enemy territory, but to me his thinking is extremely futile and founded on pride and ego, not wisdom.
When the time comes, you might want to rethink not relying on God, it sounds like you might rely on luck a bit, but I believe that luck is impartial, I think life has shown us what happens to one can happen to another, especially in moments of war. Luck is a way we reach for comfort in something greater, I personally dont think it was luck that Jesus came the first time after being prophesied for thousands of years beforehand, and I really dont think it going to be luck when he comes back.
But yeah your right, if the cars coming...Get out of the Way!!!
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteQuoteTake your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help.
It is because of snide comments like these that many Christians find themselves at the losing end of intellectual debates about religion. If they dropped the holier than thou attitude they would find that most atheists are passive in their non-belief. They don't care that someone is a Christian. But when some Christians take it upon themselves to point out how Christianity is right, and everything non-Christian is wrong, they open themselves up to justified criticisms.
So far the posts Ive read from you have been very respectful. How is it that you can say that to him but not to the others who have been cussing us out?
Or are you looking for us to actually be human? You know we are no different than you right? We found the answer in our hearts, of course the answer in us is right to us, we are simply sharing it with you. Many who do not believe in God want to believe but cannot. If there are those who simply do not want to believe, then nothing that is said will benefit them at all. But, if there are some who still want to but cant, this is why we share. I ask humbly that people please understand that we are human, and communicating in these forums is not the easiest thing is it? I just think it is funny that you highlighted what you were looking for, but seemed to miss the rest. Respectfully.
"We didn't start the fire"
kallend 1,635
Quote
Well, for starters the Tacitus reference is very clearly hearsay, as it includes the same ERROR as Josephus. It also is about the persecution of Christians by Nero, not about Jesus per se. If that's the best you've got...***
These references are not for me, they are for you. And it is no surprise that nothing will be acceptable to you. Your mind is made up. The point being that Christians existed shortly after the reported death of Jesus. Many of these persecuted people Josephus describes were eye witnesses as the Bible describes.
I am happy with that. My evidence is based on life changing results. If something has all kinds of references like zeus, athena, and all of the other meaningless names you like to throw around but has no power to change my life, I really don't put a whole lot of credence into any of their mythology, which I have studied by the way. Take your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help.
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Your "evidence" isn't evidence at all. "Evidence" that weak wouldn't be enough to convict anyone of shoplifting.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jcd11235 0
QuoteSo far the posts Ive read from you have been very respectful. How is it that you can say that to him but not to the others who have been cussing us out?
Largely because I agree with the points they are making. Perhaps they could use a bit more tact when making them, but there is certainly value to the substance of their message.
Incidentally, I'm not an atheist; I simply don't believe in deities or intervening supernatural powers.
QuoteOr are you looking for us to actually be human?
My assumption was that you are.
QuoteYou know we are no different than you right?
Sure you are. You're unique, just like 6.2 billion other people on this planet. That's a good thing.
QuoteWe found the answer in our hearts, of course the answer in us is right to us, we are simply sharing it with you.
It's great that you found something that you feel gives your life meaning. It really is. What I get bothered by, and I'm sure the same thing bothers many atheists, is the active sharing. Christianity is not a mystery to me. I've been exposed to it all my life. If it provides sufficient answers to your questions, that's great; I'm happy for you. It doesn't provide sufficient answers to mine. Maybe what is sufficient for you is not sufficient for me, or maybe we are simply seeking answers to different questions. Either way, Christianity does not offer the Truth I seek. That doesn't make me any better or worse than a Christian any more than the Pope is any better or worse than the Dalai Lama.
Were you aware that Eastern religions have their own version of the golden rule? It's very similar to the Christian version, but the subtle difference is of the utmost importance. Do not do unto others what you would not want them to do unto you. I typically do not share my beliefs with Christians because I don't want them to share their beliefs with me.
QuoteMany who do not believe in God want to believe but cannot. If there are those who simply do not want to believe, then nothing that is said will benefit them at all. But, if there are some who still want to but cant, this is why we share.
I don't know if you read the metaphor I previously posted in this or the other atheist thread. I intentionally left off part of it. I'll repeat full version here:
Religion is like a mountain. There are many paths up the mountain, but they all reach the same summit. When we find ourselves trying to convince others that our path is the best path, that indicates we've left our path and are no longer ascending towards the summit.
Jesus said: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6:5-6)
For those who don't believe, but want to, when the time is right for them, they will see your happiness and seek from you the secrets to that happiness. You believe in the divine power of your Lord; I'm certain that you can understand that when that time comes, he will make you, or someone like you, available to help those particular persons in need. If everything has a purpose and is a creation of a Divine Creator, then it is not unreasonable to believe that the Monte Carlo Method is not necessary in order to put you in touch with those in need of your help. When they are ready for your help, your paths will cross and they will let you know of their need.
QuoteI ask humbly that people please understand that we are human, and communicating in these forums is not the easiest thing is it?
Sometimes it can be very difficult indeed. That is one of the reasons that we should be careful to use words precisely, especially words that many people hold dear and take to heart, words like evidence and proof, among many others.
QuoteI just think it is funny that you highlighted what you were looking for, but seemed to miss the rest.
Because I do not believe in any deities, most Christians would consider me an atheist. That doesn't bother me much, as I have great respect for many atheists. What does bother me is when atheists are told that they are wrong because they do not place their faith in a particular god or deity. There is no justification for such accusations, except for the accusers to be seen by others in their worship. A true Christian would be wrong to make such accusations.
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QuoteHow many of those said that he was the son of [g/G]od?QuoteNon-Christian sources mentioning Jesus:
Josephus; Tacitus, the Roman historian; Pliny the Younger, a Roman politician; Phlegon, a freed slave who wrote histories; Thallus, a first-century historian; Seutonius, a Roman historian; Lucin, a Greek satirist; Celsus, A Roman philosopher; Mara Bar-Serapion, a private citizen who wrote to his son; and the Jewish Talmud. To read a complete listing of mentions of Christ from these sources, see Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, chap. 9.
None; they are non-Christian sources, and some could even be considered anti-Christian. But the point is this: They are considered as objective sources which mention Jesus Christ, which tells us that yes, he did exist... and a lot more. In fact, if you put together all the mentions of him by these non-Christian sources, you can piece together his life as told in the New Testament.
I just found the list of things these non-Christian sources mention about him (putting the info from all of them together):
1. Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar (the Roman emperor)
2. He was said to have lived a virtuous life
3. He was "a wonder worker"
4. He had a brother named James
5. He was hailed as the "messiah" or "christ" ("christ"= "messiah")(Note: the sources don't affirm that He WAS the Messiah; they simply affirm that he was hailed as such.)
6. He was crucified under Pontius Pilate (the Roman procurator/ governor in Judea under Tiberius Caesar)
7. He was crucified on the eve of the Jewish Passover
8. Darkness and an "earthquake" occurred at the time he died
9. His disciples believed he rose from the dead
10. His disciples were willing to die for that belief
11. Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome
12. His disciples denied the Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.
Considering those references (again, by objective sources), it's unreasonable to claim He never existed. More importantly, they affirm the New Testament record about Jesus.
Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
QuoteQuoteTake your atheistic philosophy for example, beside being mistaken it is totally powerless to change the life of a lost miserable sinner, who desperately wants help.
It is because of snide comments like these that many Christians find themselves at the losing end of intellectual debates about religion. If they dropped the holier than thou attitude they would find that most atheists are passive in their non-belief. They don't care that someone is a Christian. But when some Christians take it upon themselves to point out how Christianity is right, and everything non-Christian is wrong, they open themselves up to justified criticisms.
Gee, that didn't come across as snide to me ('course I agree with him
)! But how can a "snide comment" put a Christian on "the losing end of an intellectual debate"? It's funny tho' in a way-- I mean, the way each side views each other. We come across to you (unbeknownst to us) as "holier than thou" because we are confident about what the Bible tells us and we tell you so (in no uncertain terms!); you come across to us as "smugger than thou" because you've given the subject some thought and have your mind made up (sometimes backing that up with $6000 words).
Respect is often lacking on both sides. It would be nice if we could give each other the benefit of the doubt. And for the record, I make every effort to do that, until I've exchanged comments with the same person numerous times and it becomes obvious to me that he/she IS being insulting. Of course
I'm thinking of no one in particular . Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
jcd11235 0
QuoteGee, that didn't come across as snide to me ('course I agree with him)!
Of course it didn't, because it wasn't addressed at you. It was a snide comment because he implied that those who disagreed with him were wrong, yet no credible evidence of the existence of a supernatural deity has been offered, so for Christians to claim atheists are wrong is wholly without merit.
I suspect the holier than though types will disagree, as usual.
QuoteBut how can a "snide comment" put a Christian on "the losing end of an intellectual debate"?
The losing side of the debate was meant generally. This is by no means the first time that a Christian has claimed evidence of the truth of their faith, been called on it, and been unable to come up with any.
In this particular case, the debate was lost long before the snide comment was made.
Quoteyou come across to us as "smugger than thou" because you've given the subject some thought and have your mind made up (sometimes backing that up with $6000 words).
Interesting that you should consider smug those who base their conclusions on observable evidence and well documented history rather than a piece of literature written 1800+ years ago. Sounds like a very reasonable standard to me (them, not you).
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QuoteQuoteSo far the posts Ive read from you have been very respectful. How is it that you can say that to him but not to the others who have been cussing us out?
Largely because I agree with the points they are making. Perhaps they could use a bit more tact when making them, but there is certainly value to the substance of their message.
Incidentally, I'm not an atheist; I simply don't believe in deities or intervening supernatural powers.QuoteOr are you looking for us to actually be human?
My assumption was that you are.QuoteYou know we are no different than you right?
Sure you are. You're unique, just like 6.2 billion other people on this planet. That's a good thing.QuoteWe found the answer in our hearts, of course the answer in us is right to us, we are simply sharing it with you.
It's great that you found something that you feel gives your life meaning. It really is. What I get bothered by, and I'm sure the same thing bothers many atheists, is the active sharing. Christianity is not a mystery to me. I've been exposed to it all my life. If it provides sufficient answers to your questions, that's great; I'm happy for you. It doesn't provide sufficient answers to mine. Maybe what is sufficient for you is not sufficient for me, or maybe we are simply seeking answers to different questions. Either way, Christianity does not offer the Truth I seek. That doesn't make me any better or worse than a Christian any more than the Pope is any better or worse than the Dalai Lama.
Were you aware that Eastern religions have their own version of the golden rule? It's very similar to the Christian version, but the subtle difference is of the utmost importance. Do not do unto others what you would not want them to do unto you. I typically do not share my beliefs with Christians because I don't want them to share their beliefs with me.QuoteMany who do not believe in God want to believe but cannot. If there are those who simply do not want to believe, then nothing that is said will benefit them at all. But, if there are some who still want to but cant, this is why we share.
I don't know if you read the metaphor I previously posted in this or the other atheist thread. I intentionally left off part of it. I'll repeat full version here:
Religion is like a mountain. There are many paths up the mountain, but they all reach the same summit. When we find ourselves trying to convince others that our path is the best path, that indicates we've left our path and are no longer ascending towards the summit.
Jesus said: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6:5-6)
For those who don't believe, but want to, when the time is right for them, they will see your happiness and seek from you the secrets to that happiness. You believe in the divine power of your Lord; I'm certain that you can understand that when that time comes, he will make you, or someone like you, available to help those particular persons in need. If everything has a purpose and is a creation of a Divine Creator, then it is not unreasonable to believe that the Monte Carlo Metod is not necessary in order to put you in touch with those in need of your help. When they are ready for your help, your paths will cross and they will let you know of their need.QuoteI ask humbly that people please understand that we are human, and communicating in these forums is not the easiest thing is it?
Sometimes it can be very difficult indeed. That is one of the reasons that we should be careful to use words precisely, especially words that many people hold dear and take to heart, words like evidence and proof, among many others.QuoteI just think it is funny that you highlighted what you were looking for, but seemed to miss the rest.
Because I do not believe in any deities, most Christians would consider me an atheist. That doesn't bother me much, as I have great respect for many atheists. What does bother me is when atheists are told that they are wrong because they do not place their faith in a particular god or deity. There is no justification for such accusations, except for the accusers to be seen by others in their worship. A true Christian would be wrong to make such accusations.
"We didn't start the fire"
QuoteOf course it didn't, because it wasn't addressed at you. It was a snide comment because he implied that those who disagreed with him were wrong, yet no credible evidence of the existence of a supernatural deity has been offered, so for Christians to claim atheists are wrong is wholly without merit.
I suspect the holier than though types will disagree, as usual.
He wouldn't be the first to imply (to put it mildly!) "that those who disagreed with him were wrong, yet with no credible evidence" offered. See, one thing we've all got to understand is that people on all sides of the debate feel very certain that their evidence has merit and is credible. I find your reasons for believing only in the natural unreasonable and illogical. And obviously you see the Christian's reasons for affirming a supernatural First Cause (with all the implications) unreasonable and without merit. We can't take it personally or be offended when someone implies that those who disagree with him are wrong; he's just certain of his own position and that's the nature of debate.
After all, if you believe in Absolute Truth, then someone in the argument/discussion has to be wrong, because of the law of non-contradiction!
My last reply (to you) was meant to be a lighthearted attempt at offering adding some balance to the mix.
Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
QuoteYou said this in reply to rynodigsmusic:
For those who don't believe, but want to, when the time is right for them, they will see your happiness and seek from you the secrets to that happiness. You believe in the divine power of your Lord; I'm certain that you can understand that when that time comes, he will make you, or someone like you, available to help those particular persons in need. If everything has a purpose and is a creation of a Divine Creator, then it is not unreasonable to believe that the Monte Carlo Method is not necessary in order to put you in touch with those in need of your help. When they are ready for your help, your paths will cross and they will let you know of their need.
Sounds like you know something of the sovereignty of God. You're right, the Father always makes the first move in awakening a heart in need, and leading it to where living water can be found. And sometimes that happens as a Christian is sharing his faith with that person.
QuoteWhat I get bothered by, and I'm sure the same thing bothers many atheists, is the active sharing.
If you don't want to hear it, tell the person talking to (or at) you to stop. But don't blame him for sharing his viewpoint openly in the first place-- that's what these Speaker's Corner forums are for. And that's what Christians are internally compelled to do by the love of Christ. If you ask me not to reply to your posts any more, trust me, I'll stop. That goes for anyone else who doesn't want to hear what I have to say anymore. But as long as I keep getting feedback or questions on what I am saying, I'll continue until the thread dies.
Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
Quote[Smile]Im sorry, everything you said is fair, its just if I started saying something against atheism and was wrong, or not providing any proper or thought out responses, I believe most atheist would speak up.
Good point. Atheists have shown that they don't like their religion misrepresented, and they will speak up if you do. Christians certainly don't like Christianity misrepresented either; they want to set the record straight. That's what both sides are doing. That's intelligent conversation--- until insults start getting thrown around. And ridicule. And then the whole thing just degenerates. Entropy.
Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
kallend 1,635
QuoteQuote[Smile]Im sorry, everything you said is fair, its just if I started saying something against atheism and was wrong, or not providing any proper or thought out responses, I believe most atheist would speak up.
Good point. Atheists have shown that they don't like their religion misrepresented, and they will speak up if you do. Entropy.
Please remember that you are also more than 99.9% atheist. There are thousands of gods that have been proposed over the millennia, and you believe all except one are false. 100% atheists believe that one is false too.
PS atheism is NOT a religion. But you knew that.
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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
jcd11235 0
QuoteHowever, it would be interesting to hear the rest of your beliefs.
That's not something I'm inclined to share on an internet forum. I'm not seeking approval, validation, or to recruit other people to believe as I do. My beliefs are between me and, for lack of a better word, God.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
I think Christians hold the Bible to unreasonably low standards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the Bible falls well short.
I'm sorry if you took offence but you are trying to mislead people. You objected to my points that the Bible was written after the fact and not by eye witnesses then proceed to state that it was actually written after the fact and not by eye witnesses. I don't know how you cannot see that.
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