Man...These guys got smoked.

[Coreece 190]

Suprisingly, I was a little disturbed after watching this. I'm not sure if this is something I'd be willing to do. If I were to kill someone in war, I think I'd feel better abouit it if they were shooting at me or if they were some type of colatteral damage. How about you guys?

What a tough job...

2:12 is where the action starts.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=101389&fr=yfp-t-471

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[airdvr 200]

No problem with this. These guys are obviously up to no good. They made their decision. Wonder if that qualifies for the 70 virgin thing.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[vortexring 0]

This vid. from an Apache FLIR is so ooooooooooold!

Besides - they were farmers ploughing their land with their tractor - look at the recently ploughed ground. So what 'no good' were they up to that justifies being torn apart?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

This vid. from an Apache FLIR is so ooooooooooold!

Besides - they were farmers ploughing their land with their tractor - look at the recently ploughed ground. So what 'no good' were they up to that justifies being torn apart?

Other than transferring RPG's, you mean?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[vortexring 0]

Really? Where?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

Right at 0:36 that's where, yeah this video is old.

You usually do not see "night farming", and someone trying to run quickly, in order to hide their "potato digger".

Oh wait, maybe they are in a band, and that was a Bassoon!

Yeah that's it!

[warpedskydiver 0]

Were the guys thirsty?

Yeah that's a possibility after playing the Bassoon all night long

[vortexring 0]

It wasn't at night.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

Musicians?

[vortexring 0]

The 'story' around this vid. - if I'm remembering correctly - was that it occured in GW I. Apparantly the people you see being brassed up by the 30mil were 'working' on the undershoot to an unspecified airbase. And of course, apparantly, they were 'up to no good.'

I have my doubts...either way, I couldn't see any immediate threats. Could anybody? What exactly were the weapons. Looked more like a fairly lightweight bunch of tools wrapped in a blanket thrown onto the ground. Not much threat there. It's also interesting hearing the controller ask if they're actually carrying weapons. One guy says 'Yes!' when they obviously aren't, whilst the other mentions they were carrying weapons. Like I said earlier, what weapons?

A ground callsign should have went out to investigate - with the Apache remaining on station providing topcover.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

It illustrates itchy trigger fingers again. A bit like Popov mentioning the orange marker panels, no? Despite there being no military vehicle in the Iraqi army marked with illuminious orange marker panels, and despite numerous briefs that allied vehicles would be marked with orange marker panels....

It also reminds me of another Apache FLIR vid. taken in GW I of 2xM2 Bradleys being mistaken for Iraqi vehicles and being destroyed with 2 Hellfires. Again, the vehicles were not posing any immediate threat. And there were doubts of the vehicles being friend or foe. Unfortunately sounded after the 2 wagons were burning wrecks. 'Ah sure hope they weren't ours - 'cos they're definently dead...'

Guess what pilot suddenly stopped prefixing his callsign with 'Gunslinger'?

I could go on for hours about this. But I have in the past. What's the point?

It's rather depressing to say the least.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

Thanks for the background, I figured you were briefed.

[vortexring 0]

Mate - crewroom rumours. At the end of the day - whose right? Only the crews involved know. Either way, in a lot of cases, people died when there was no apparant need, and people killed, when there was no apparant need.

I'm certainly not saying that I know the guys in the original vid. were up to no good. I was just trying to make a point, I wish I didn't even bother with.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[ExAFO 0]

Buh-bye! Say hi to Allah for me!

Problem was in translation: 72 Virgins--nope:

72 Virginians: George Washington and Thomas Jefferson beating the shit outta them

or

72 Virgils: "You sure do have a purty mouth, boy..."

[/credit to Robin Williams]

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

It wasn't at night.

You don't use FLIR (forward looking infra red) during the day...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

The 'story' around this vid. - if I'm remembering correctly - was that it occured in GW I. Apparantly the people you see being brassed up by the 30mil were 'working' on the undershoot to an unspecified airbase. And of course, apparantly, they were 'up to no good.'

I have my doubts...either way, I couldn't see any immediate threats. Could anybody? What exactly were the weapons. Looked more like a fairly lightweight bunch of tools wrapped in a blanket thrown onto the ground. Not much threat there. It's also interesting hearing the controller ask if they're actually carrying weapons. One guy says 'Yes!' when they obviously aren't, whilst the other mentions they were carrying weapons. Like I said earlier, what weapons?

A ground callsign should have went out to investigate - with the Apache remaining on station providing topcover.

And they would hide the "tools" under the tractor and drop another set of "tools" in the middle of the field, exactly why?

There were no ground troops available, from what I can recall of the incident.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[vortexring 0]

None whatsoever? Not a single, solitary patrol from the base available? Not that one was requested. Who told you that you can't use IR during the day? I've used various IR systems numerous times in daylight.

edit: Again, perhaps they were weapons. But like I said earlier, are you able to confirm the fact they were indeed weapons? No.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

None whatsoever? Not a single, solitary patrol from the base available? Not that one was requested. Who told you that you can't use IR during the day? I've used various IR systems numerous times in daylight.

edit: Again, perhaps they were weapons. But like I said earlier, are you able to confirm the fact they were indeed weapons? No.

Just as you are unable to confirm that they are NOT - but I somehow can't see someone suddenly looking off in one direction, then run and drop some farm tools in a field and come back to the truck looking like nothing happened. If they were tools, why all the surreptitious actions?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[vortexring 0]

The point here is that because I'm unable to confirm if they're carrying weapons I wouldn't open fire. Simple as that. Hence the use of a ground patrol.

As far as I'm aware, the 'official' version of events does indeed indicate that on following up on the incident, weapons were found. But I still have my doubts. And for good reason too.

End the of the day, we have ROE for good reasons. The Geneva Convention exists for good reasons. Obviously that was taken into account with the wounded person crawling on the ground........

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

Quote

It wasn't at night.

Looks like I was wrong - had another look at the vid. and the time display looks to be reading around 1925Z which would make it roughly 2225 local. I think...

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[mnealtx 0]

3 or maybe 4 hours difference, yeah... Saudi was 3 hours off GMT.

As I recall, these folks were followed for a good while before they were engaged. By the point the stuff in the FLIR film happened, it was obvious they weren't on the side of the angels, so to speak.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

Quote

None whatsoever? Not a single, solitary patrol from the base available? Not that one was requested. Who told you that you can't use IR during the day? I've used various IR systems numerous times in daylight.

edit: Again, perhaps they were weapons. But like I said earlier, are you able to confirm the fact they were indeed weapons? No.

I too, have used IR, and have seen others use IR, in the daytime.

However, try rounding out your perspective a little bit: It was Iraq, during the first Gulf War right? Unconfirmed activity, in a combat zone.

My unit had ROE that dictated that seeing someone on a cell phone was hostile intent. Same with digging a hole. Same with carrying a weapon in the open.

It's easy to question activity 15 years later, from the comfort of our own homes. It doesn't matter if you or I can confirm that those are/were weapons. Our perspective does not matter in this engagement. The pilot and weapons officer have it on tape, it was certainly seen by many in the Army during the AAR.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[vortexring 0]

Not 100% sure if indeed it was from GW I. Looking around the 'net it seems to be from 2004. I'm sure I can remember being told it was from GW I though.

What is apparant though, is the points I made earlier. Not only on this thread, but others too.

I do accept I'm unable to view the incident from the aircrews perspective in this case, but what I do have is a bagload of my own experience. Perhaps I'm using this incident to illustrate a point a little 'unfairly' then. But I'm happy enough to admit to that.

What I'm not happy to achieve is another bunfight regarding this issue of 'shooting first, then asking the questions' policy. Not that I see any argument holding for it. Despite ROE's varying from theatre to theatre, country to country, they do dictate a moral obligation, such as proportionality as an example, and of course, the Geneva Convention. Despite the argument the a/c opened up with it's least powerful weapon system, it's evident from my perspective they are somewhat unsure of whether or not they're actually looking at hostiles. Hence the use of a ground patrol.

Was the a/c becoming fuel critical? Was there no other a/c available to take over? No ground callsigns available? That still doesn't morally justify engaging what you still only suspect to be the enemy. Maybe stronger moral leadership is what's required.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'