Right to bear arms reduces freedoms?

[Clownburner 0]

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So my basic argument is that your right to bear arms in the US, comes at the price of a "heavier handed" police force, that that in the UK.

I think your basic argument here is flawed.

here are just a few examples.

The reality is that England is rapidly becoming (if it is not already) the most restrictive surveillance state in the world, with a level of personal privacy similar to that in many 'third-world' dictatorships and theocracies.

So.. Um.. OUR police are the heavy-handed ones?

While I don't like the general trend towards authoritarianism many industrialized countries are taking, I'd say the US is well behind old blighty in that regard.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[Tonto 1]

Have this discussion with the family of the man shot repeatedly in the head by the UK police. See whether they feel your police have a soft touch.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[nigel99 144]

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Have this discussion with the family of the man shot repeatedly in the head by the UK police. See whether they feel your police have a soft touch.

I would say that this reinforces the argument that "armed" civilians increase the likely use of deadly force by the police. I was using relative terms comparing the US/UK and not absolutes. The growing threat of suicide bombers mean unfortunately that if you or I are mistaken for a terrorist we are now more likely than ever to be killed first and questions asked later. It is a nasty side effect of terrorism. Due to the ability of a single individual I can sympathise with the police response. I may be speaking out of line here but those were counter-terrorism police who I imagine would have greater freedoms than your average "bobby on the beat" - for 1 thing most UK police are not armed and (all?) US police are armed.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 144]

Clowdburner.

I toyed with a title along the lines of "reduces right to life" but felt it was to strong.

I won't argue that the UK is a surveillance society. The personal privacy issue is a major concern, and amazingly the average person here does not protest.

I would bet you that in 10 years time we will have satellite tracking of our cars for so called "green taxes" and charging by the mile. This will then be "enhanced" over a period, to isolate criminal activities etc, and eventually here in the UK you will no doubt get a visit from the cops because you were "kerb crawling" at 11pm in a known area for prostitution... and the list will go on.

Despite this I would still argue you are more likely to get a violent response from US police than UK police. There are very few accusations of excessive force by police officers here.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Tonto 1]

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Due to the ability of a single individual I can sympathise with the police response.

That response cannot be justified. Sympathy with that type of completely misdirected and inapropriate response will only allow it to occur again.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Clownburner 0]

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I won't argue that the UK is a surveillance society. The personal privacy issue is a major concern, and amazingly the average person here does not protest.

I would bet you that in 10 years time we will have satellite tracking of our cars for so called "green taxes" and charging by the mile. This will then be "enhanced" over a period, to isolate criminal activities etc, and eventually here in the UK you will no doubt get a visit from the cops because you were "kerb crawling" at 11pm in a known area for prostitution... and the list will go on.

Despite this I would still argue you are more likely to get a violent response from US police than UK police. There are very few accusations of excessive force by police officers here.

Quad erat demonstratum.

While the general 'level of force' required from US police officers is often higher - as they must assume most suspects are armed until they prove otherwise - and there are more 'excessive force' incidents in the US, the general level of freedom is still higher in the US than in the UK, where your personal freedoms and right to privacy are being trodden on faster than any other country in the world.

Much, much faster than in countries with an armed population.

Coincidence?

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[nigel99 144]

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the general level of freedom is still higher in the US than in the UK, where your personal freedoms and right to privacy are being trodden on faster than any other country in the world.

Much, much faster than in countries with an armed population.

Your viewpoint is pretty interesting & appears to align with the statement made by JR as 1 of the major reasons that the right bear arms in the US is the ability of the populace to use force against a tyranical governement.

I don't see how the ability of civilians to be armed is related to the government abusing our rights. I would appreciate it if you could expand.

Personally I think that the UK tends to suffer from extreme voter apathy, 2 political parties that are very closely aligned making voting a joke - and I think this contributes to the rapid erosion of civil liberties. The UK has spent years fighting for mediocrity it is so deeply embedded in the general populace mindset (I could quote a whole bunch of examples, but the best is school sports days where it is common not to reward "winners" because it makes the others feel bad). The direct result of this mediocrity is that nobody stands up for anything. Look at the Iraq war - nobody here supports it, but on the same token nobody gives a damn they just let it drift on.

Yes in the US you have freedoms that are not present in the UK. However it is when you analyse the differences that it becomes really scary.

For example in the US as I understand it "free speach" means that you can ligitimately hold a "negative/dissenting world view". Take for example the KKK I believe that it is legal. So you can take a stance of I don't like skydivers,lawyers,different race etc and it will be tolerated so long as you are not violent & engage in criminal activity. Whereas in the UK these types of opinions are crushed - this is very unhealthy. I mean even fringe political parties are largely held as something to be concerned about.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Lefty 0]

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We dont really need guns. It's that American wild west mentality that attempts to justify the need for guns...but we dont need them.

I've decided, for you, that we don't REALLY need parachutes. It's that wacky American wild recreation mentality you are suffering from (it's only American too, that cliche never gets old).

yea...ok. apples and oranges brother......apples and oranges.

It's actually a fair analogy from a recreational standpoint. Your idealism brings a tear to my eye, though...*sniff* Mean old guns! *sniff*

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[rehmwa 2]

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We dont really need guns. It's that American wild west mentality that attempts to justify the need for guns...but we dont need them.

I've decided, for you, that we don't REALLY need parachutes. It's that wacky American wild recreation mentality you are suffering from (it's only American too, that cliche never gets old).

yea...ok. apples and oranges brother......apples and oranges.

It's actually a fair analogy from a recreational standpoint. Your idealism brings a tear to my eye, though...*sniff* Mean old guns! *sniff*

Look at all the "swooping is not a crime" threads - they are almost perfectly parallel to gun-rights threads.

Poor bastards, how dare someone fight ignorant people that want to control the choices of others??

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Clownburner 0]

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Your viewpoint is pretty interesting & appears to align with the statement made by JR as 1 of the major reasons that the right bear arms in the US is the ability of the populace to use force against a tyranical governement.

I don't see how the ability of civilians to be armed is related to the government abusing our rights. I would appreciate it if you could expand.

We haven't had to do that in a while, at least on a widespread basis. The last time we did it, we booted the English out and established our own government.

It can be argued that fear of a mass armed uprising is one of the 'checks and balances' that keeps the government in place, though it's clearly a last resort against unchecked tyranny. It'd take some pretty major abuses to set off that particular trigger, but it's definitely there.

The US is also suffering from an excess of ignorance and voter apathy, along with a spectacular disinformation campaign, and as a result, our civil rights are likewise eroding. It's a fair bet they won't erode as far as they otherwise might.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth