Iraqi Orphanage Nightmare

[mnealtx 0]

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arguably NOT comparative

You wish to discuss it, YOU find the info from before the invasion, then - I provided what information I found, which shows Saddam era management and status of the country.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 140]

I do not need to - it is so painfully obvious just how successful Iraq is and has been for us..... (and them)

TK

[mnealtx 0]

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I do not need to - it is so painfully obvious just how successful Iraq is and has been for us..... (and them)

TK

Ah, I see... so, you don't actually have any PROOF...just the truther talking points.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 140]

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/iraq_2122.html

Looks like a grim picture - HOWEVER, if you look under statistics - there are some positives - so you may not be totally wrong - i.e. there may very well be more schools, but apparently children are not going to them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/post_saddam_iraq/html/7.stm

Also a grim picture -

So I modify my original post a bit. SOME Infrastructure is there, even some that did not exist before - like internet access. But apparently is having LITTLE OR NO EFFECT. So again, I will state that until things get back to 'normal', orphanages can be expected to be neglected - a long with a lot of other things I expect.

"What to do today, what to do.... Take care of the orphans or try to keep my family alive?......hmm let me think about that one.....hmmmm."

Good enough for you?

[mnealtx 0]

It appears both those sources are showing data since the start of the Iraq war.

All the information I'm finding so far is after the war started. They all tend to state that Hussein had, in a nutshell, ran the country into the ground, however.

I'm trying to find older information for comparison, but no luck so far.

Am I saying it's all puppies and butterflies? Of course not...but it appears to be (again, from information that I've found so far) to be immensely better than what they HAD.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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Am I saying it's all puppies and butterflies? Of course not...but it appears to be (again, from information that I've found so far) to be immensely better than what they HAD.

By all means look up the number of mosques and markets blown up under Sadaam...yup.. we turned that around for them didnt we...in the sence that now there is a source and a will to do these atrocities on a daily b asis that did not used to be there.

[Scoop 0]

I saw this on the news and had to turn it off. I can't take propoganda seriously. Nothing can defend the actions of those supposed to be caring for the children but I don't care to have every moral upper hand and good news story thrust in my face.

As much as I supported the war I wonder how many of those children were orphaned by our actions in the first place?

[GQ_jumper 4]

but I don't care to have every moral upper hand and good news story thrust in my face.

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But you'd would glady make popcorn and sit in front of the TV smiling and laughing for hours of reports about how all soldiers are committing atocities themselves, right?

Of the thousands of news reports every day that make it look like the soldiers are failing to do their jobs because we are too corrupt to function properly, ONE single story pops up that shows innocent children getting saved from certain death by US soldiers and all you can do is say "what the fuck ever". How dare the news stations report whats happening and tell all the stories that come across their desk, not just the ones you want to hear about.

The military reports what's going on to the media every day and the media, not the military deides what makes it into the news. The military gives the media the whole story, good, bad, indifferent, and if the media should take ten minutes to spit out a story showing a bunch of children being saved why do you have to knock it, that story didn't sensationalize the soldiers involved as being knights in shining armor, it focused on the suffering of the children and the wrong-doings of those who treated these poor children in such an ill-manner, the soldiers just happened to be the ones who moved in to fix the problem.

This entire thread is pathetic, there are 10 year old like arguments going on between about three different groups of people not even pertaining to the subject at hand, it's sad.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Scoop 0]

For what its worth I don't watch either stories. I just try to avoid the news completely, be it on TV, on the radio or in a newspaper. I take it all with a pinch of salt when I see reports.

Its a war, bad stuff happens, heroic stuff happens. I accept that. Just let the men and women get on with it without playing on the hearts of the folk at home either positively or negatively. But then I think there should be a blanket ban on media reporting anything to do with ongoing conflicts.

[mnealtx 0]

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But then I think there should be a blanket ban on media reporting anything to do with ongoing conflicts.

That will never happen. I think that the press has the responsibility to report in an evenhanded manner, showing both sides of the situation and not releasing information that would help the enemy.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Scoop 0]

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I think that the press has the responsibility to report in an evenhanded manner

That will never happen either

[jgoose71 0]

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Am I saying it's all puppies and butterflies? Of course not...but it appears to be (again, from information that I've found so far) to be immensely better than what they HAD.

By all means look up the number of mosques and markets blown up under Sadaam...yup.. we turned that around for them didnt we...in the sence that now there is a source and a will to do these atrocities on a daily b asis that did not used to be there.

The attrocities have always been there. Just because we didn't see it in the news, that doesn't mean 2 million people didn't disappear in the middle of the night under Saddam. Have you seen the pictures of the kurdish children that had nerve gas dropped on them? The only diffrence now is they CHOSE to live in hell. They have the freedom to do what they want for once and they use it to kill each other off. They don't have Saddam to scare them into submission anymore and this is how they chose to act.
Hopefully they will get the hang of this freedom thing soon so we can all go home

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[tkhayes 140]

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that doesn't mean 2 million people didn't disappear in the middle of the night under Saddam

Where did the 2 million come from? Even the White House does not acknowledge that many:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/20030404-1.html

He was a tyrant, yes, probably killed 100,000 or 200,000 of his own people, but we have killed 60K-70K during this war on terror.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

and now more dead soldiers than people who died on 9/11. Way to go!

we have generated far more refugees, done more damage to the infrastructure (but that is OK, my and your tax dollars paid to have it demolished and will now pay to have it rebuilt)

Get the 'hang' of freedom? These people barely know what that is. They are a third world country, with poverty and poor education. You cannot choose freedom for them, they have to want it on their own. Then they would have risen up against their own government and done it themselves.

But no, we had to step into the quagmire ourselves. Anyway, now we have it, and we deserve every bit of it. dead soldiers, economy gonna go down the tube, dollar going to shit, but at least we got rid of all those terrorists right?

TK

[jgoose71 0]

By your own reference, a lot more than 200,000 have died under Saddam. Go through the seperate events and start adding the numbers. And that is only what we can account for. The truth is we will never know how many people died under his rule. While stationed in Iraq I lived in the remains of the Mukhabarat secret police right underneith Sadr City. I got quite a history lesson while living there (why do they need a wood chipper when there are no trees around?) You should read this:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_19/ai_101941824/pg_1

If you ask me, they might even be a little better off. And for the record, your body count web site does show how many have died since we moved in, but most if it is Muslim on Muslim Killings. Their "Military actions" include insurgents rounding up people and excecuting them. My point is they have a choice now. If they chose to stop, they could.

Our choice is to continue to fight, or leave the orphans to them selves. What would you do?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[tkhayes 140]

I would leave them to themselves - it is and was always their fight to fight - not ours. We never should have been in the first place, we were lied to and now we use that to justify staying - get real. Continuing to do the same shit over and over again and expecting to get different results is not only stupid - it is insane.

Instead, I could probably find ways to spend $400-$500B on education, border security, health care and a host of other things within our own borders.

Yes, absolutely, we should just plain up and leave.