Right to life, and Right to use an illegal drug to live?

[unformed 0]

About two years, we had the whole debacle with Terry Schiavo and the government stepping in to not allow her to die. Add to that the government stepping in to stop people who want to die from killing themselves. (Kevorkian).

Now, we've got Angel Raich who wants to live, but can only do so if she uses marijuana. And now the government is stepping in to take that away from her, and force her to die.

This is fucking brilliant?

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[DaVinci 0]

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Terry Schiavo

Family decides. That would be husband then kids, then parents IMO.

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Now, we've got Angel Raich who wants to live, but can only do so if she uses marijuana.

So without MJ she dies? Opinion, or fact?

If people can prove the MJ is her only option I say let her blaze away...But how about some clinical evidence first?

[Armour666 0]

there is very little evidence at this point because of the governments and DEA's stance on the drugs. And studies are routinely turned down from other countries by the FDA due to political pressure. So unless the Government stops this and allows proper studies to follow normal FDA guide lines including phase studies then there will continue to be now definitive facts.

There was a recent 87 page ruling that a doctor fought 7 years to begin phase II study of people smoking cannabis but the DEA continued to block in because they deemed to have already determined what they thought the Phase II results were going to be and concluded that because of this potential of not being able to accurately measure the effects of smoking cannabis and track blood levels of THC they feel that the phase II should not be approved.

Since when was the DEA involved in FDA standards?

Feb 2007 Ruling Dr. fight against DEA to conduct research

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[unformed 0]

I know for a --fact-- that there are people who believed the government was right in stepping into the Schiavo affair. I also know there are a large number of people who believe that all illegal drugs are bad and evil.

Where are you? Speak up!

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[freethefly 6]

Shiavo, according to top medical experts, had no chance of recovery and was, in fact, brain dead. Yet the government seen fit to intervene and to waste tax dollars on a case that the parents brought on not by good judgement but merely emotional reasons. I don't blame the parents as it was obvious that they loved their daughter but, good judgement on their behalf was clearly lacking to wish that their daughter be bed bound, kept alive by feeding tubes with no knowledge that she even existed. On the otherhand Raich's life is more tolerable with the use of marijuana. She is not harming anyone nor is she sending the wrong message to the children as some anti-mj advocates suggest. There are far more dangerous things that people do yet, no one seems to care about the message that alcohol commercials send or the message of junk food commercials send or the message that pharmetcutical commercials send. Mj is a proven drug. It is extremely safe as it is impossiable to overdose and is not addictive. It beguiles me to go to a dropzone and see a "We are a Drug Free Dropzone" and then watch people get sloppy drunk untill the wee hours of the morning and be gearing up a few hours later. There is far to much hypocracy in regards to how some view mj and then tout how great it is to get fallen down drunk. Angel Raich and many like her benefit from med-mj. I only wish that those who wish to imprison us could spend a day in our shoes. I think they would quickly come to our side.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[jarrodh 0]

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Shiavo, according to top medical experts, had no chance of recovery and was, in fact, brain dead. Yet the government seen fit to intervene and to waste tax dollars on a case that the parents brought on not by good judgement but merely emotional reasons. I don't blame the parents as it was obvious that they loved their daughter but, good judgement on their behalf was clearly lacking to wish that their daughter be bed bound, kept alive by feeding tubes with no knowledge that she even existed. On the otherhand Raich's life is more tolerable with the use of marijuana. She is not harming anyone nor is she sending the wrong message to the children as some anti-mj advocates suggest. There are far more dangerous things that people do yet, no one seems to care about the message that alcohol commercials send or the message of junk food commercials send or the message that pharmetcutical commercials send. Mj is a proven drug. It is extremely safe as it is impossiable to overdose and is not addictive. It beguiles me to go to a dropzone and see a "We are a Drug Free Dropzone" and then watch people get sloppy drunk untill the wee hours of the morning and be gearing up a few hours later. There is far to much hypocracy in regards to how some view mj and then tout how great it is to get fallen down drunk. Angel Raich and many like her benefit from med-mj. I only wish that those who wish to imprison us could spend a day in our shoes. I think they would quickly come to our side.

hear hear

2 BITS....4 BITS....6 BITS....A DOLLAR!....ALL FOR THE GATORS....STAND UP AND HOLLER!!!!

[Andy9o8 0]

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So without MJ she dies? Opinion, or fact?

If people can prove the MJ is her only option I say let her blaze away...But how about some clinical evidence first?

It's not so much that without mj these patients will directly die, but that they suffer from such intractable nausea, and no other anti-nausea drugs work for them, that they cannot tolerate eating, and can't keep anything down that they do eat, so they wither away due to either malnutrition itself or its secondary sequelae. For many of these patients, mj is the only anti-nausea drug that actually works to allow them to ingest and retain the nutrition they need.

As an aside, mj works for many glaucoma patients, too.

Mj is not a narcotic. Yet there are plenty of potentially dangerous or easily abused narcotics that the federal govt allows to be administered with a doctor's prescription. Why the federal government can't even bring itself to agree to this compromise position (as several states are beginning to do with "medical marijuana" laws) is simply beyond me. It's either callous or obtuse, but in either event it defies all rationality.

[DaVinci 0]

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For many of these patients, mj is the only anti-nausea drug that actually works to allow them to ingest and retain the nutrition they need.

I have no issue with medical MJ once a NEED is shown. Hell, I have no real issue with fun MJ.

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Why the federal government can't even bring itself to agree to this compromise position (as several states are beginning to do with "medical marijuana" laws) is simply beyond me. It's either callous or obtuse, but in either event it defies all rationality.

Thats easy. There are groups that if medical MJ were legal would write scripts to just about anyone so they could get high. Dr's are not allowed to write scripts so people can get stoned, (yes it happens I know) but the major push for "medical" MJ is not really for medical reasons. It is from guys that want to get stoned and see a way to do it legally.

Those people, instead of pushing for MJ to be legal like Alcohol are hurting the medical movements chances. The real medical need folks should be telling the "tokers" to shut the fuck up. They are hurting more than they are helping.

So the Gov is not going to allow a drug to be handed out so people can get high.

MJ has two battles...BOTH I can agree to, but I don't agree with them being mixed.

1. Medical reasons .But I would like to see real evidence that it is the only option....I honestly find it hard to believe that only POT, not Mariol, not any of the other hundreds of other legal drugs only POT works.

2. Tokers who want to get high.

When the tokers back medical uses....Well they do more harm than good. And using terms like "ditch weed" really hurts the medical push.

[ExAFO 0]

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]The real medical need folks should be telling the "tokers" to shut the fuck up. They are hurting more than they are helping.

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!

If Nausea is what make pill forms of Marinol useless, then make it injectable or in a nebulizer for inhalation. Then you clear out the stoners who pathetically try to co-opt the cause of the bona fide ill patients.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Andy9o8 0]

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There are groups [I presume you mean doctors] that if medical MJ were legal would write scripts to just about anyone so they could get high. Dr's are not allowed to write scripts so people can get stoned, (yes it happens I know) but the major push for "medical" MJ is not really for medical reasons. It is from guys that want to get stoned and see a way to do it legally.

That's utter nonsense. You're just taking groundless presumptions of yours and throwing them out there like they're fact.

[unformed 0]

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There are groups that if medical MJ were legal would write scripts to just about anyone so they could get high. Dr's are not allowed to write scripts so people can get stoned, (yes it happens I know)

Really? When doctors prescribe medication for reasons other than medical reasons, they generally not only get their licenses revoked but also fined heavily and/or thrown in jail. Even in Costa Rica, I was hard pressed to find a doctor that write me a script for Valium, even when I was prepared to pay a little extra. So ... no. Just because marijuana was legalized medically wouldn't mean everybody would have access to it.

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but the major push for "medical" MJ is not really for medical reasons.

Got any sources? I didn't think so.

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[freethefly 6]

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If Nausea is what make pill forms of Marinol useless, then make it injectable or in a nebulizer for inhalation.

I'll testify that Marinol is a useless pill that does very little and cost far more than a bag of quality mj. Igested forms of THC can take up to 4 hours to act. Marinol did zilch to curb my nausea or even to bring up my appetite. It cost me several hundreds of dollars a month. A bag of good mj cost about $100.00 and with just a few tokes, whether from a pipe or a vaporisor the effect is near immediate. My nausea clear 100% and I can eat. As it is now, I very seldom get a chance to smoke and I eat a piece of deer meat once or twice a week. Just the thought of eating makes me want to vomit. I hate my freaking life and how I feel daily. Somedays I wish the illness would just speed up and kill me. Shame on the government and you people that keeps the one thing that DOES work from me.

From DaVinci:

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The real medical need folks should be telling the "tokers" to shut the fuck up. They are hurting more than they are helping.

So tell me, what are you doing to further the cause?
My friends and allys are the tokers. They are aware of the truth and don't hold back. I am also a good friend to many med-mj activist. Do you attend rallys? Sign petitions? Speak out? My guess is that you and many like you have done nothing but talk out of your hat. You are uniformed. Educate yourself. Hell you have admited to smoking and even say that you have no problem with mj use. Why not get onboard and fight a good fight? We need you and everyone else who have stepped a time or two to our side of the fence. We arenot "dopeheads". We are not "criminals". The majority of us do not even look like someone who smokes. I cannot even guess how many people that I have came in contact with and was completely floored to learn that they smoked. Particuarly in skydiving. More than 75% of the jumpers I have met smoke or do so once in a great while. Smokers are everywhere. They will never go away. Time is to stop the persecution of good people and get on with locking up the bad such as child molestors, thiefs, and murderers. Let's push for regulations and taxes. Let's convict those (blackmarketeers, drug cartels, those passing it on to children) who wish to step outside the guidlines of what can make it work for everyone. After more than 70 years of persecution and not a dent in curbing the grass it is high time for a change in the weather. Legalization is the only answer.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[ExAFO 0]

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If Nausea is what make pill forms of Marinol useless, then make it injectable or in a nebulizer for inhalation.

I'll testify that Marinol is a useless pill that does very little and cost far more than a bag of quality mj. Igested forms of THC can take up to 4 hours to act. Marinol did zilch to curb my nausea or even to bring up my appetite. It cost me several hundreds of dollars a month. A bag of good mj cost about $100.00 and with just a few tokes, whether from a pipe or a vaporisor the effect is near immediate. My nausea clear 100% and I can eat. As it is now, I very seldom get a chance to smoke and I eat a piece of deer meat once or twice a week. Just the thought of eating makes me want to vomit. I hate my freaking life and how I feel daily. Somedays I wish the illness would just speed up and kill me. Shame on the government and you people that keeps the one thing that DOES work from me.

I specifically mentioned non pill forms that cut out the useless stoner criminals--injectable or a nebulizer. While I am sorry you are ill, you are countering an argument I did not make.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[billvon 2,434]

>I specifically mentioned non pill forms that cut out the useless stoner
>criminals--injectable or a nebulizer.

Are you really making the argument that injectable drugs are less likely to be abused than drugs that are smoked?

[ExAFO 0]

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>I specifically mentioned non pill forms that cut out the useless stoner
>criminals--injectable or a nebulizer.

Are you really making the argument that injectable drugs are less likely to be abused than drugs that are smoked?

No less likely than any other injectible substance. Plus I doubt that most stoners would graduate to injecting THC. Some will, but that's just a bit of pool shock to the gene pool.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[rehmwa 2]

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>I specifically mentioned non pill forms that cut out the useless stoner
>criminals--injectable or a nebulizer.

Are you really making the argument that injectable drugs are less likely to be abused than drugs that are smoked?

\

Are you really saying that a professionally processed product provided via subscription would be less available that growing it in your backyard?

Are you really saying that taking a couple pills would have no less of a 'bad boy' connotation that smoking it out behind the dumpster?

The formality of a clinical supply rather might very well put off some from it.

I also don't see assholes exhaling pills into the faces of minors and pets and giggling on how funny it is. The stoners do more harm to this cause than anyone.

For that matter, eat drink or inject whatever you want, even if it's abuse. At least it stinks less and isn't pervasive to others around you.

Legalize for medical reasons - come up with a non-second hand affect method of providing.

Tax the hell out of it for recreation purposes.

Let companies hire and fire if they don't want a (recreational, not medical) stoner on the job.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[unformed 0]

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Are you really saying that a professionally processed product provided via subscription would be less available that growing it in your backyard?

In high school, it was easier for me to score some pot than it was to get some alcohol. And so, I didn't start heavily drinking until I got to college. I was smoking way earlier.

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Are you really saying that taking a couple pills would have no less of a 'bad boy' connotation that smoking it out behind the dumpster?

The medium doesn't matter. If it provides a high, it'll be taken. Fuck, I remember people sniffing markers in high school. I never understood it but they were doing it. These same people now have doctorates.

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The formality of a clinical supply rather might very well put off some from it.

I also don't see assholes exhaling pills into the faces of minors and pets and giggling on how funny it is. The stoners do more harm to this cause than anyone.

I do see people feeding their pets and minors alcohol. Pot is much less dangerous.

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For that matter, eat drink or inject whatever you want, even if it's abuse. At least it stinks less and isn't pervasive to others around you.

Most stoners smoke in their own house, not in public or bars. Even if they do it in public, it is generally very inconspicuously, being that is illegal and all. So, you can't really complain about it being pervasive to those around them. You're a grown man. If you don't like other people smoking in their own house, you're free to leave.

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Legalize for medical reasons - come up with a non-second hand affect method of providing.

Tax the hell out of it for recreation purposes.

Let companies hire and fire if they don't want a (recreational, not medical) stoner on the job.

I agree to the later two. There are chemical reasons (regarding synthesis and stability) why the first is extremely difficult.

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[Casurf1978 0]

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1. Medical reasons .But I would like to see real evidence that it is the only option....I honestly find it hard to believe that only POT, not Mariol, not any of the other hundreds of other legal drugs only POT works.

Talk to someone who is going through chemo and has to take several pills throughout the day or people that are going through HIV treatments. It's a lot easier to say pop a Marinol and you'll feel fine. My friend is undergoing his fourth treatment of chemo in less than 2 years and he constantly feels like crap. He pops god knows how many pills a day and youre asking him to take more. He cant eat cause of the terrible nausea he has. When he smokes the effect is almost immediate. He can at least eat something without wanting to throw up. One month he almost spent over 400 dollars on Marinol, keep in mind some of his chemo meds are more expensive. I say let him smoke MJ if it helps him. Who is he harming?

[DaVinci 0]

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That's utter nonsense. You're just taking groundless presumptions of yours and throwing them out there like they're fact.

Nope.....A swing and a miss.

Try reading some

"According to the California Cannabis Research Medical Group (CCRMG), there are three types of doctor(s) who approve cannabis for medicinal use by patients. (1) Willling specialists, eg those treating patients with cancer and AIDS, (2) Willing general practitioners who recommend the drug for gravely ill patients that other drugs fail to help, and (3) Cannabis specialists, who "are convinced of its relative benignity, and keep abreast of the literature with respect to mechanism-of-action, clinical trials in Europe, etc."

Members of the CCRMG fall into group (3) and collectively have issued most of the estimated 50,000 approvals to use cannabis in the state of California since Prop 215 made it legal in November, 1996."

Cannabis specialists, who "are convinced of its relative benignity" is a far cry from the other two groups...And yet they have given most of the aprrovals....HMMMMMMMM

[ExAFO 0]

So, let's legalize Heroin/MDMA while we're at it...

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[DaVinci 0]

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So tell me, what are you doing to further the cause?

For medical MJ or the "everyone must get stoned" crowd?

Medical: I have written my Senator. My reasons were simple. If someone has a fatal disease, and there is a chance it will help use them as a part of a study. Allow testing. Testing does not hurt.

Stoners: Nothing. I don't care one way or another if it is legalized for fun. In fact I would rather both alcohol and cigarettes become illegal since they cause health issues that people expect me to pay for when they can't.

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My friends and allys are the tokers

And they hurt your cause for medical MJ.

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My guess is that you and many like you have done nothing but talk out of your hat.

You would be wrong. But don't expect me to support fun MJ, any more than I support cigarettes or beer. And for the same reasons.

[narcimund 0]

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That's utter nonsense. You're just taking groundless presumptions of yours and throwing them out there like they're fact.

Excellent characterization of DaVinci's posts in general.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[DaVinci 0]

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Got any sources? I didn't think so.

I guess you fit into the wanna be stoner group.

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But the major push for "medical" MJ is not really for medical reasons.

"According to the California Cannabis Research Medical Group (CCRMG), there are three types of doctor(s) who approve cannabis for medicinal use by patients. (1) Willling specialists, eg those treating patients with cancer and AIDS, (2) Willing general practitioners who recommend the drug for gravely ill patients that other drugs fail to help, and (3) Cannabis specialists, who "are convinced of its relative benignity, and keep abreast of the literature with respect to mechanism-of-action, clinical trials in Europe, etc."

Members of the CCRMG fall into group (3) and collectively have issued most of the estimated 50,000 approvals to use cannabis in the state of California since Prop 215 made it legal in November, 1996."

Cannabis specialists, who "are convinced of its relative benignity" is a far cry from the other two groups...And yet they have given most of the aprrovals....HMMMMMMMM

[DaVinci 0]

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Excellent characterization of DaVinci's posts in general.

Thats just funny coming from YOU of all people. "Hello pot, this is kettle calling, do you read me?"

You just hate it when I show you have double standards...Like pretty much you have all the time.

And how all your posts are attacks trying to imply you are better than everyone else.

[billvon 2,434]

>I guess you fit into the wanna be stoner group.

Your one warning.