Evangelist is homo no mo.

[diverborg 0]

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your right - that is a bit harder to defend - however - this man was a good enough to bring people to christ while he was secretly gay - but now that he is publicly gay - he is not.

while he was secretly gay - his deeds were not wolf like, nor were they a false profet in nature as his work was valid - he did bring people to christ effectively and better than the competition could - else someone else would have had the job -

you have to admit - being gay did not affect his ability to bring people to christ - only the public's perception that he was gay affected this ability -

this is where I get lost .. I don't understand why he was good enough while successfully deceiving - even though his deciet has no negative consequences on those he he deceived - in fact- his deciet actually was more benefitial than the truth as he was the better man at the task than the others - so - at this point I hope you can see my point - even though I am stumbling at presenting in in words.

I'm not very familiar with Haggard or what was his ministry, so take this for what its worth. Isn't it possible that a "minister" who perhaps at one time was following God, (not perfect, cause nobody will ever be), was just tempted and fell to his level. I mean if you believe in the spiritual realm wouldn't it be the goal of the devil to spend most of his time trying to bring down someone of his status. Just a few thoughts. I don't necessarily believe that because he was tempted with homosexuality means that he is forever gay. So yes, this is a disappointment to all of his "followers" but they shouldn't have been following him anyway, but following Jesus that he led them too. I don't know if this guy is evil deep down or just fell when tempted like all of us do. That is not for me to judge and Christians need to realize that you plain and simple don't put your faith in man.

[Mockingbird 0]

No one's mentioned the fact (which all of us have witnessed at one time or another probably) that power has a way of corrupting people. Some start thinking that they're invulnerable.

??????????

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[bigtexan 0]

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Look back at scripture in the NT and you will see the 12 disciples were able to preach, and heal. All of them! Not 11 of them, ALL of them, including Judas. What does that say? To me it says God works through imperfect people. Thank God because I don't know too many perfect people.

While I think anyone who gave their life to Christ in his ministry is not in jeopardy of hell for Haggard's sins, they no doubt have been dealt a blow about Christian integrity and leadership.

Again - I am not folowing this argument - how can one expect everyone to be flawed yet when their flaw is shown - it is a blow to integrity and leadership?

Shouldn't it be expected that flaws exist in everyone no matter what position they hold thus the whole concept of a 'blow to integrity and leadership' could only exist if the people who were let down expected those whom let them down to somehow be without flaws.

'i should probably note that my initial objection in this thread was the quoting of scripture basically saying this man is a false propht - wolf in sheeps clothing and going to hell - without reguard for the his actual fruit of successfully leading many to christ'

[steveorino 7]

I seriously doubt anyone believes their pastors/priests are without sin, so we accept leadership from flawed people.

Any flaw makes us imperfect, but imperfection in general should not keep us from leading. However, most congregations have higher expectations of their leaders, and there is scriptural references for that.

That being said, each congregation has a worldview about the acceptability of certain sins. They allow for "some" sins, but will not tolerate others. In Haggards' church's spiritual worldview, sleeping with a gay prostitute and buying illegal drugs, are sins they will not tolerate. Simply being gay most likely is a sin they wouldn't tolerate.

Then you have the Metropolitan Church out of Dallas. Their leader is openly gay as many of their members are. So obviously they tolerate, or even approve, of being gay. But I bet they would not tolerate their pastor taking meth.

Bottom line -- We're all flawed. Some flaws call for removal of the pastor, some don't.

steveOrino

[bigtexan 0]

Are there levels of sin?

I understand the obvious answer that stealing a pencil from work is not as bad as murder in most worldviews of good/bad behavior - but from a scriptual view - is there a 'sin rating system'?

I thought one cannot enter heaven with any sin - thus all have equal value and thus there is no 'level of sin' to decide against what should/can be tolerated and what should not.

So for one to be tolorable/intolorable - all should be.

[pajarito 0]

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Shouldn't it be expected that flaws exist in everyone no matter what position they hold thus the whole concept of a 'blow to integrity and leadership' could only exist if the people who were let down expected those whom let them down to somehow be without flaws.

Haggard was obviously continuing in a “pattern of sin” making him a hypocrite. It leads one to think that he might not have been saved in the first place (Romans 6). The entirety of his evangelistic efforts (good works) cannot pay the penalty for the sins of his heart (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, being a Christian does not mean that you don't stumble into sin anymore (Romans 3:23). It means that you don't dive into it. Like I've said before, it's the difference between drifting down the river of sin with everyone else and swimming against the current. For the Christian, it is a continual battle against the human nature and it lasts for the rest of your life. It’s part of the process of “growing in holiness” which should take place if one is truly saved and deserving of the title of Christian. Otherwise, one is a false convert even if they believe themselves to be Christian. Most who claim to be Christian really aren’t. Haggard’s failure to represent the hope that should lie within him not only by what he “says” but how he conducts his life, if he really is a Christian, is most definitely a “blow to his integrity and leadership.” He is also held to a higher standard in the eyes of God because of his leadership role (James 3:1). He will be punished worse if he is unrepentant.

[steveorino 7]

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Are there levels of sin?

I understand the obvious answer that stealing a pencil from work is not as bad as murder in most worldviews of good/bad behavior - but from a scriptual view - is there a 'sin rating system'?

I thought one cannot enter heaven with any sin - thus all have equal value and thus there is no 'level of sin' to decide against what should/can be tolerated and what should not.

So for one to be tolorable/intolorable - all should be.

Any sin makes you less than perfect to enter heaven -- if that same mark was used for spiritual leadership. then we would obviously be w/o spiritiual leadership. I guess I'm saying God's measure for heaven is different than his measure for leadership.

Levels of sin? Well God has indicated some have worse consequences than others.

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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Are there levels of sin?

I understand the obvious answer that stealing a pencil from work is not as bad as murder in most worldviews of good/bad behavior - but from a scriptual view - is there a 'sin rating system'?

I thought one cannot enter heaven with any sin - thus all have equal value and thus there is no 'level of sin' to decide against what should/can be tolerated and what should not.

So for one to be tolorable/intolorable - all should be.

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Well, I think we would have to say that there are degrees of sin, yes. Just from the practical standpoint. I may entertain a thought of sin briefly; I may entertain that thought at length; I may allow that thought to become a deed; I may allow that deed to become a habit. So there would certainly be degrees of sin, and the Lord would say, the first time you have the thought deal with it then, and if you continue to have it, deal with it, and if you start to do the act, deal with it, and if its become a habit, deal with it. I mean at any point in the process the Lord would want us to halt it and not carry it to the next degree, to the next expression.

So, yes I believe there are degrees of sin. I believe sins of thought are an abomination to God, because any iniquity no matter how small abominates God. But, from the standpoint of practicality God will bless you if you cease from your sinning. God, I’m sure would be grateful if the thought of sin never became the act of sin, if it was dealt with at the point of the thought. Do you understand what I’m saying? You can’t just say, "Well, I thought the thought; I might as well do the deed! I did the deed I might as well make it a habit." I don’t think so. I don’t think so. So, God would be satisfied if you just stopped over here, and not convince yourself that because you thought the thought you’re as good as done the deed, and you might as well just let it run its course. No.

There’s another component to that, and I think it is perhaps worth mentioning. And that is in Hebrews 10, and here is a specific sin that certainly brings about a severer degree of punishment. Hebrews chapter 10, verse 29, “How much severer punishment, do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?” What’s he saying? Well, all those who aren’t saved go to hell. All those who do not come to God through Jesus Christ will go to hell. But, the hottest hell and the severest punishment is reserved for those who knew, the most fully, the gospel and trampled on it. If a person rejects God, never hears the gospel, doesn’t live up to the light they have, is indicted on the basis of Romans, chapter 1, they will suffer punishment. But it won’t be like the punishment of one who has come to understand the gospel, come to understand what Christ did, who he was, fully understand that and trample him under his feet. That person will suffer the greater punishment.

So I think there are degrees of sin from the practical standpoint, and there are definitely degrees of punishment, which would reflect back on the level of one’s sin. So I think the answer to that question is, yes. I think what God would want you to do in your life is to cease at whatever degree you have reached, and not let it go anymore beyond that. A wonderful truth is that God forgives that sin, and God wipes out and blots away the past and remembers it no more. So the sooner you cease, the sooner it’s forgotten.
--John MacArthur

[pajarito 0]

I meant for my response to you to be for bigtexan. Sorry about that.

[steveorino 7]

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I meant for my response to you to be for bigtexan. Sorry about that.

No problem. Good stuff.

steveOrino

[bigtexan 0]

so - are there levels of reward in heaven? or is everyone on the same level reguardless of their life behaviors?

[jakee 1,271]

I don't think the author of that piece knows the meaning of the word 'practical'.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[masterrig 1]

I read and heard the story. How gullible and stupid does he think people are? I guess, as gullible and stupid as he is. The people running their 'con game' found a way to make money. The whole thing is really funny. P.T. Barnum was right!


Chuck

[steveorino 7]

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so - are there levels of reward in heaven? or is everyone on the same level reguardless of their life behaviors?

There are those who believe that are and quote certain texts to back up their belief. I'm more inclined to believe not. Does it matter?

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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so - are there levels of reward in heaven? or is everyone on the same level reguardless of their life behaviors?

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There will be varying degrees of reward in heaven. That shouldn’t surprise us: there are varying degrees of giftedness even here on earth. To get a good glimpse of what heaven might be like, look at the church. From the moment of your redemption, the Lord put His Holy Spirit within you, and according to I Corinthians 12, He gave you certain spiritual gifts, right? He gave gifts to all of His church. They differ. What are gifts? They are varying capacities for ministry, varying capacities for service to God in His church. And I think the same thing will be true eternally; I think in eternity, we will all be given according to our abilities and according to our faithfulness--varying capacities for glorifying, serving, and worshipping God.

So, I think that it’s going to be based upon two things. One would be the sovereignty of God, who will choose to give as He wills, as in I Corinthians 12, as He gives spiritual gifts in this life to the church, in whatever way He chooses to do that--that’s a sovereign thing. And secondly, I think there is another component, and that has to do with faithfulness here. I believe our eternal reward will be in some way determined by the level of faithfulness we have had here.

Now, there are a number of reasons why we assume this. One of them was this conversation that Jesus had with the mother of James and John, who said, “My boys want to sit on your right and left hand when you come into the kingdom,” and He said, “It’s not for Me to give that; it’s for my Father to give that.” And there He said, there are going to be some people elevated. Somebody’s going to be on my right, somebody’s going to be on my left, and some others are going to be down the line here--It’s not for Me to decide that; It’s the Father. But, then He went on to say the criteria by which that is going to be decided is faithfulness unto death. So, I think the greatest reward in the future is awarded for the most faithful people, and that probably plays itself out in those who were faithful unto death: the martyrs, those who gave their life. You could give your life in living, as well as give your life in dying, couldn’t you? And you know what I mean by that. You could make the self-sacrifice to the maximum extent even while you’re alive, where you sacrifice everything else and be what Paul called a “living sacrifice.”

So, I think there is definitely going to be, in heaven, varying levels of service, just as there are with the angels: there are archangels, and there are cherubim and seraphim, and principalities and powers and rulers, and all of those varying levels of angelic hierarchy. I think in eternity, we are all going to be sorted out within that eternal worshipping community and given varying capacities and varying responsibilities, which are determined by the sovereignty of God and our faithfulness here. That’s why John says, “Look to yourselves that you lose not the things you have wrought, but that you receive a full reward.” It is possible that you could be faithful, and the Lord be ready and prepared to give you a full reward, but by some sin in your life towards the end of your life, you could begin to forfeit and those things would be taken back off the list, added to the "wood, hay, and stubble" kind of thing, and your reward would be less.

What is it? Is it going to be some people with bigger crowns? No. We’re not going to be going around saying, “Hah! I got a big one; you got a little one!” It’s not going to be that. Whatever we get, I believe in the picture of the 24 elders, we take our crowns and cast them at the feet of the Lord. But, I don’t believe they’re going to be anything that’s visible. I think it’s going to be a capacity for serving God fully and completely. I don’t think you’ll have any sense of loss or any sense of missing anything, because each individual’s capacity will be reached to its maximum. But, I think what we want to do is have the greatest capacity for worshipping God, as His sovereignty would give us and as our faithfulness would warrant.
--John MacArthur

[pajarito 0]

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Does it matter?

Not at all considering the alternative. I'd be satisfied to be the lowliest servant in heaven.

[SkyChimp 0]

The bottom line is that he is gay! Drug fueled homo sex is still drug fueled homo sex. If that's your gig, so be it. Just don't be the pot calling the kettle black.

Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?!