NCclimber 0 #26 November 29, 2006 In other words, unsupported hearsay... from one person... in a private meeting. The two leaders at that meeting deny those alleged statements were made. To me, that's a far cry from "We have a president who tells us GOD wanted him to go in to Iraq." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #27 November 29, 2006 You don’t remember GWB talking about what God almighty wants before even the war began? He mentioned Gods will many times in his speechs. I am at work but I will do a search and see if I can find the text and post it for you. But let me ask you this. If I do post his speech where he states what I claimed. Would it change your opinion or your mind? Or would you just search for another angle? You see the reason I ask is so many times I have said things that people don’t believe until we supply a link to a unbiased news group or something like that. After they view that what we had stated is true they don’t say oh I was wrong but just search for another angel to be right. The CIA sending people to other countries to be tortured comes to mind among many other issues. Not trying to pick on you but seriously wondering. We live in a time where people who supported the war were 100% sure Iraq had WMD, no matter what the stupid UN said. When we found out there was none they didn’t do the right thing and say "wow we were wrong" they just went searching for another angle. I am hopping your not one of these people.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #28 November 29, 2006 QuoteIn other words, unsupported hearsay... from one person... in a private meeting. The two leaders at that meeting deny those alleged statements were made. To me, that's a far cry from "We have a president who tells us GOD wanted him to go in to Iraq." Well, it's what I could find. Don't blame me, I did say the source was not impeccable.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #29 November 29, 2006 Quote...Stuff... I was talking about Iranian air safety. Some needed to pick the one event that did not really follow. Admittedly I took the bait and ran w/it. Not all the world hates Muslims. Get over yourself. The world hates Muslims who use Allah as a reason to attack others. But the fact remains--what the fuck is with Iran's Aviation??Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #30 November 29, 2006 QuoteWell, it's what I could find. Don't blame me, I did say the source was not impeccable. You did point that out. Sorry I didn't acknowledge that in my previous post. Darius, I think most reasonable people have numerous reasons/rationales for supporting any given cause. If one of those reasons is proven untrue, that may weaken their support, but it doesn't necessarily cancel it out altogether. Regarding our invasion of Iraq, I think you will find a large portion of those who initially backed Bush's decision to invade Iraq, who now think it was a bad decision. My point to you is I've seen a number of claims about Bush that don't hold water. When someone makes one, I ask for proof. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #31 November 29, 2006 http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?ex=1255665600en=890a96189e162076ei=5090 QuoteCorrection Appended Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a treasury official for the first President Bush, told me recently that ''if Bush wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on Nov. 3.'' The nature of that conflict, as Bartlett sees it? Essentially, the same as the one raging across much of the world: a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion. ''Just in the past few months,'' Bartlett said, ''I think a light has gone off for people who've spent time up close to Bush: that this instinct he's always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do.'' Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and self-described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to say: ''This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them. . . . ''This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with inconvenient facts,'' Bartlett went on to say. ''He truly believes he's on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence.'' Bartlett paused, then said, ''But you can't run the world on faith.'' I'll keep looking for you Edit to add: I know that’s not what you are looking for I will try to find text from his speech. I remember seeing him on TV talk about Gods will it was actually even discussed here in SC.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niu 0 #32 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuote But the fact remains--what the fuck is with Iran's Aviation?? Dunno,but is it common practice to include military accidents in air safety statistics? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #33 November 29, 2006 Let's ignore the few % and hundreds of thousands and call that ALL then The others probably spoilt their "I'm a terrorist" application form. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #34 November 29, 2006 QuoteLet's ignore the few % and hundreds of thousands and call that ALL then. The others probably spoilt their "I'm a terrorist" application form. I realize that your only way to try and save face after putting your foot in your mouth like that, is to change the context of the issue and try and turn it into a discussion about the definition of "all". But the fact is, the topic of the conversation back in message 15 where your erroneous post was initiated, was over whether Libya and Iran are the same philosophically, or not. And you were flat wrong. They are both Muslim countries, with 95% and 97% majorities. The remaining few percentage points has no influence on anything there. You were in such a hurry to bash someone's view, that you didn't check your facts first. And now instead of admitting your mistake, you're trying to swallow your foot even deeper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #35 November 29, 2006 John. 99.99 is not all all = 100% And as for Libya and Iran being the same just because they are Muslim is just a stupid comment. Does that mean France, and the United States are the same because the majority is Christians? As for people having their foot in their mouth you must be inside out by now.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #36 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteLet's ignore the few % and hundreds of thousands and call that ALL then. The others probably spoilt their "I'm a terrorist" application form. I realize that your only way to try and save face after putting your foot in your mouth like that, is to change the context of the issue and try and turn it into a discussion about the definition of "all". But the fact is, the topic of the conversation back in message 15 where your erroneous post was initiated, was over whether Libya and Iran are the same philosophically, or not. And you were flat wrong. They are both Muslim countries, with 95% and 97% majorities. The remaining few percentage points has no influence on anything there. You were in such a hurry to bash someone's view, that you didn't check your facts first. And now instead of admitting your mistake, you're trying to swallow your foot even deeper. You posted: QuoteFrom my World Almanac: Libya is 97% Sunni Muslim. Iran is 95% Shia Muslim. You do realize that the Shia and the Sunnis do not always agree, philosophically (and politically) speaking, right? The current civil war in Iraq comes to mind as but one example where there is a little bit of tension between the two groups. You are right, though, they are both Muslim. Just like Catholics, Mormons, Rastafari, Southern Baptists and Eastern Orthodoxy Christians are all Christian. To quote another poster you, "[y]ou were in such a hurry to bash someone's view, that you didn't check your facts first. And now instead of admitting your mistake, you're trying to swallow your foot even deeper."Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #37 November 29, 2006 Libya supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. The leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. There are definitely some major factors linking the two countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #38 November 29, 2006 QuoteLibya supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. The leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. There are definitely some major factors linking the two countries. And the US supported Saddam during the same war. Do you think the United States and Iraq (under Saddam) are philosophically similar? If so, please elaborate. If not, how can Libya's support of Iran during that war be used to link the two countries philosophically?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #39 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteLibya supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. The leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. There are definitely some major factors linking the two countries. And the US supported Saddam during the same war. Do you think the United States and Iraq (under Saddam) are philosophically similar? If so, please elaborate. If not, how can Libya's support of Iran during that war be used to link the two countries philosophically? The US supported Iraq because the sitting administration thought it was in our best interests to do so. What was the benefit to Libya in supporting Iran. I notice you only addressed a portion of my reply. If you consider the other factors I mentioned you might be able to answer your own questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #40 November 29, 2006 QuoteThe US supported Iraq because the sitting administration thought it was in our best interests to do so. What was the benefit to Libya in supporting Iran. Pretty much the same reasons, probably. Why does any nation ally with another? QuoteI notice you only addressed a portion of my reply. If you consider the other factors I mentioned you might be able to answer your own questions. Let's see. You said: QuoteThe leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. Which is it, Pan Arabism or Pan-Islamism? They're competing movements. Is Iran even considered Arab? With respect to sponsoring terrorism, the United States is not necessarily innocent of such practices, either. We just don't call it that when it is perpetrated in our national interests. Hell, GHW Bush even pardoned Orlando Bosch, a known (pro US) terrorist.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #41 November 29, 2006 I guess I should have written "The leadership of these countries support the expansion of varying forms of Pan-Islamism and/or Pan-Arabism." It seems you are more interested in just shooting down my points (pun intended) by whatever means, rather than responding to them. Toodles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #42 November 29, 2006 QuoteI guess I should have written "The leadership of these countries support the expansion of varying forms of Pan-Islamism and/or Pan-Arabism." It seems you are more interested in just shooting down my points (pun intended) by whatever means, rather than responding to them. Toodles Again, I will refute your point as my response to your post. Iran is not an Arab country, so we can rule out Pan-Arabism as the reason Libya supported Iran. Iraq has a very large Muslim population, so we can rule out Pan-Islamism as the reason Libya supported Iran. Better? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,463 #43 November 29, 2006 >What was the benefit to Libya in supporting Iran. Same reason we supported islamic terrorism in the 80's in Afghanistan. "The enemy of our enemy is our friend" and all that. (Needless to say that was a mistake, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #44 November 29, 2006 QuoteJohn. 99.99 is not all all = 100% Oh lookie, another person trying to focus on minutia in order to avoid the larger error! QuoteDoes that mean France, and the United States are the same because the majority is Christians? France: 90% Roman Catholic USA: There are so many different religious groups in America that it takes an entire page and a half of my almanac to list them all. That says something about freedom of religion here. Thus, the U.S. cannot be characterized by any one religion. In Iran where you came from, you better darn well be a Muslim, or you're a nobody. Now go pull your own foot out of your mouth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #45 November 30, 2006 QuoteYou posted: QuoteFrom my World Almanac: Libya is 97% Sunni Muslim. Iran is 95% Shia Muslim. You do realize that the Shia and the Sunnis do not always agree, philosophically (and politically) speaking, right? Sheesh. There are an awful lot of people who keep forgetting the original context in which this topic started. In regard to their feelings towards America, both the Sunni and the Shia want to kill us. That makes them philosophically similar in the context of this discussion. And, yes, they often want to kill each other also. They're all such nice people. To ExAFO: Sorry about getting your thread off-topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #46 November 30, 2006 Quote To ExAFO: Sorry about getting your thread off-topic. I like beer.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #47 November 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou posted: QuoteFrom my World Almanac: Libya is 97% Sunni Muslim. Iran is 95% Shia Muslim. You do realize that the Shia and the Sunnis do not always agree, philosophically (and politically) speaking, right? Sheesh. There are an awful lot of people who keep forgetting the original context in which this topic started. In regard to their feelings towards America, both the Sunni and the Shia want to kill us. That makes them philosophically similar in the context of this discussion. And, yes, they often want to kill each other also. They're all such nice people. But right now, Libya (mostly Sunni) is playing nice with the US, but we're not faring so well with the Sunnis in Iraq. Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't paint all Muslims with the same brush. Nor should we assume that just because a Muslim acts in a certain way that action is motivated by faith.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,463 #48 November 30, 2006 >In regard to their feelings towards America, both the Sunni and the Shia want to kill us. Right. And americans want to kill them. Literally true, but not all that useful of an observation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #49 November 30, 2006 QuoteIraq has a very large Muslim population, so we can rule out Pan-Islamism as the reason Libya supported Iran. Better? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #50 November 30, 2006 QuoteOh lookie, another person trying to focus on minutia minutiae Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
shropshire 0 #33 November 29, 2006 Let's ignore the few % and hundreds of thousands and call that ALL then The others probably spoilt their "I'm a terrorist" application form. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #34 November 29, 2006 QuoteLet's ignore the few % and hundreds of thousands and call that ALL then. The others probably spoilt their "I'm a terrorist" application form. I realize that your only way to try and save face after putting your foot in your mouth like that, is to change the context of the issue and try and turn it into a discussion about the definition of "all". But the fact is, the topic of the conversation back in message 15 where your erroneous post was initiated, was over whether Libya and Iran are the same philosophically, or not. And you were flat wrong. They are both Muslim countries, with 95% and 97% majorities. The remaining few percentage points has no influence on anything there. You were in such a hurry to bash someone's view, that you didn't check your facts first. And now instead of admitting your mistake, you're trying to swallow your foot even deeper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #35 November 29, 2006 John. 99.99 is not all all = 100% And as for Libya and Iran being the same just because they are Muslim is just a stupid comment. Does that mean France, and the United States are the same because the majority is Christians? As for people having their foot in their mouth you must be inside out by now.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #36 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteLet's ignore the few % and hundreds of thousands and call that ALL then. The others probably spoilt their "I'm a terrorist" application form. I realize that your only way to try and save face after putting your foot in your mouth like that, is to change the context of the issue and try and turn it into a discussion about the definition of "all". But the fact is, the topic of the conversation back in message 15 where your erroneous post was initiated, was over whether Libya and Iran are the same philosophically, or not. And you were flat wrong. They are both Muslim countries, with 95% and 97% majorities. The remaining few percentage points has no influence on anything there. You were in such a hurry to bash someone's view, that you didn't check your facts first. And now instead of admitting your mistake, you're trying to swallow your foot even deeper. You posted: QuoteFrom my World Almanac: Libya is 97% Sunni Muslim. Iran is 95% Shia Muslim. You do realize that the Shia and the Sunnis do not always agree, philosophically (and politically) speaking, right? The current civil war in Iraq comes to mind as but one example where there is a little bit of tension between the two groups. You are right, though, they are both Muslim. Just like Catholics, Mormons, Rastafari, Southern Baptists and Eastern Orthodoxy Christians are all Christian. To quote another poster you, "[y]ou were in such a hurry to bash someone's view, that you didn't check your facts first. And now instead of admitting your mistake, you're trying to swallow your foot even deeper."Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #37 November 29, 2006 Libya supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. The leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. There are definitely some major factors linking the two countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #38 November 29, 2006 QuoteLibya supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. The leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. There are definitely some major factors linking the two countries. And the US supported Saddam during the same war. Do you think the United States and Iraq (under Saddam) are philosophically similar? If so, please elaborate. If not, how can Libya's support of Iran during that war be used to link the two countries philosophically?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #39 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteLibya supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. The leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. There are definitely some major factors linking the two countries. And the US supported Saddam during the same war. Do you think the United States and Iraq (under Saddam) are philosophically similar? If so, please elaborate. If not, how can Libya's support of Iran during that war be used to link the two countries philosophically? The US supported Iraq because the sitting administration thought it was in our best interests to do so. What was the benefit to Libya in supporting Iran. I notice you only addressed a portion of my reply. If you consider the other factors I mentioned you might be able to answer your own questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #40 November 29, 2006 QuoteThe US supported Iraq because the sitting administration thought it was in our best interests to do so. What was the benefit to Libya in supporting Iran. Pretty much the same reasons, probably. Why does any nation ally with another? QuoteI notice you only addressed a portion of my reply. If you consider the other factors I mentioned you might be able to answer your own questions. Let's see. You said: QuoteThe leadership of both countries support the expansion of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism. Both countries have been accused of being sponsors of terrorism. Which is it, Pan Arabism or Pan-Islamism? They're competing movements. Is Iran even considered Arab? With respect to sponsoring terrorism, the United States is not necessarily innocent of such practices, either. We just don't call it that when it is perpetrated in our national interests. Hell, GHW Bush even pardoned Orlando Bosch, a known (pro US) terrorist.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #41 November 29, 2006 I guess I should have written "The leadership of these countries support the expansion of varying forms of Pan-Islamism and/or Pan-Arabism." It seems you are more interested in just shooting down my points (pun intended) by whatever means, rather than responding to them. Toodles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #42 November 29, 2006 QuoteI guess I should have written "The leadership of these countries support the expansion of varying forms of Pan-Islamism and/or Pan-Arabism." It seems you are more interested in just shooting down my points (pun intended) by whatever means, rather than responding to them. Toodles Again, I will refute your point as my response to your post. Iran is not an Arab country, so we can rule out Pan-Arabism as the reason Libya supported Iran. Iraq has a very large Muslim population, so we can rule out Pan-Islamism as the reason Libya supported Iran. Better? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #43 November 29, 2006 >What was the benefit to Libya in supporting Iran. Same reason we supported islamic terrorism in the 80's in Afghanistan. "The enemy of our enemy is our friend" and all that. (Needless to say that was a mistake, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 November 29, 2006 QuoteJohn. 99.99 is not all all = 100% Oh lookie, another person trying to focus on minutia in order to avoid the larger error! QuoteDoes that mean France, and the United States are the same because the majority is Christians? France: 90% Roman Catholic USA: There are so many different religious groups in America that it takes an entire page and a half of my almanac to list them all. That says something about freedom of religion here. Thus, the U.S. cannot be characterized by any one religion. In Iran where you came from, you better darn well be a Muslim, or you're a nobody. Now go pull your own foot out of your mouth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #45 November 30, 2006 QuoteYou posted: QuoteFrom my World Almanac: Libya is 97% Sunni Muslim. Iran is 95% Shia Muslim. You do realize that the Shia and the Sunnis do not always agree, philosophically (and politically) speaking, right? Sheesh. There are an awful lot of people who keep forgetting the original context in which this topic started. In regard to their feelings towards America, both the Sunni and the Shia want to kill us. That makes them philosophically similar in the context of this discussion. And, yes, they often want to kill each other also. They're all such nice people. To ExAFO: Sorry about getting your thread off-topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #46 November 30, 2006 Quote To ExAFO: Sorry about getting your thread off-topic. I like beer.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #47 November 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteYou posted: QuoteFrom my World Almanac: Libya is 97% Sunni Muslim. Iran is 95% Shia Muslim. You do realize that the Shia and the Sunnis do not always agree, philosophically (and politically) speaking, right? Sheesh. There are an awful lot of people who keep forgetting the original context in which this topic started. In regard to their feelings towards America, both the Sunni and the Shia want to kill us. That makes them philosophically similar in the context of this discussion. And, yes, they often want to kill each other also. They're all such nice people. But right now, Libya (mostly Sunni) is playing nice with the US, but we're not faring so well with the Sunnis in Iraq. Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't paint all Muslims with the same brush. Nor should we assume that just because a Muslim acts in a certain way that action is motivated by faith.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #48 November 30, 2006 >In regard to their feelings towards America, both the Sunni and the Shia want to kill us. Right. And americans want to kill them. Literally true, but not all that useful of an observation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #49 November 30, 2006 QuoteIraq has a very large Muslim population, so we can rule out Pan-Islamism as the reason Libya supported Iran. Better? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #50 November 30, 2006 QuoteOh lookie, another person trying to focus on minutia minutiae Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
