Lucky... 0 #126 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. LIfe experiences? Really? Been a while, but I recall basic math, english and perception/problem solving stuff. WHat life experience stuff is on there? That would be the problem solving and perception/association part. Essentially what I wrote, not bad for 26 years ago. Now, where are the life experience portions of the ASVAB? EDIT: In college they call this critical thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #127 November 15, 2006 QuoteWhatever you do, don't read the DOD sites I just posted... no, gotta keep the truth suppressed as we do here in the good ole US of A. It still doesn't prove your hypothesis correct, as it compares enlisted military to non-military, and not enlisted military to college students. Don't get me wrong, your hypothesis sounds reasonable, but that is not the same as saying you have shown your hypothesis to be true.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #128 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. LIfe experiences? Really? Been a while, but I recall basic math, english and perception/problem solving stuff. WHat life experience stuff is on there? That would be the problem solving and perception/association part. Essentially what I wrote, not bad for 26 years ago. Now, where are the life experience portions of the ASVAB? EDIT: In college they call this critical thinking. What I meant was that the perception/problem solving exercises on the ASVAB are geared to be answered based on life experience, not academic doctrine.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #129 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhatever you do, don't read the DOD sites I just posted... no, gotta keep the truth suppressed as we do here in the good ole US of A. It still doesn't prove your hypothesis correct, as it compares enlisted military to non-military, and not enlisted military to college students. Don't get me wrong, your hypothesis sounds reasonable, but that is not the same as saying you have shown your hypothesis to be true. The DOD data I posted, 1 from 1998 and the other from 2004 shows a decline in standards for enlistees and an increase in the percentage of civilains attending college. As for the issue of whether college kids are more intelligent than their counterparts who enlist, I think a lot can be inferred that is virtually untestable, or that no tests have been done. In many scientific tests (imperical) the scientists use the available data and make inferrences. If you want to go against what is likely a positive conclusion that college kids are more intellectual, then you are fee to do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #130 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. LIfe experiences? Really? Been a while, but I recall basic math, english and perception/problem solving stuff. WHat life experience stuff is on there? That would be the problem solving and perception/association part. Essentially what I wrote, not bad for 26 years ago. Now, where are the life experience portions of the ASVAB? EDIT: In college they call this critical thinking. What I meant was that the perception/problem solving exercises on the ASVAB are geared to be answered based on life experience, not academic doctrine. I think a lot of what they test for is innate, as in what Jesus and God gave us . Seriously, at 17,18 ish, not much can be gained by knwoing what a kid has learned in ALL those years, but I think they are testing for aptitude. As I recall they had the foldout boxes that dimensioned various shapes and you have to decide which box would yield which shape. I just don't think the ASVAB was testing for life experiences. The term, 'life experience' is used, thru my life experience, by people w/o college who want to defend their intelligence. Altho some people with degrees are indeed idiots, if I'm on millionaire, guess who I'm calling as a lifeline; Mr. college degree or Mr life experience? I just say to all the college haters, there's nothing to fear but fear itself. IOW's, quit teh whinng about going to school, it's actually very cool and you feel good about yourself rather than pathetic after a night of drinking. There is a contigency of people who think college makes you more stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #131 November 15, 2006 QuoteIf you want to go against what is likely a positive conclusion that college kids are more intellectual, then you are fee to do that. How about this thrown in.. Many of those who go to college right after High School have FAMILILIES who can afford to send them off to college. That also does not include the propensity for MANY of them to not do well due to partying and just barely scraping by so they can stay there in school on daddies money. Many of those who do get by and get their basket weaving degree ( those art history degrees and such are hard to find jobs with) can always go into the family business. Many in the military I knew were there for the educational benefits and in the long run were better.. more driven students because they had some life experience that showed them what it was going to be like WITHOUT that education. I was in thru the 1970's... many went into the Air Force because of the percieved safty of service there rather than being drafted into the Army or Marines with the assured trip to Vietnam. To get into the Air Force at that time was far harder than getting into the other services... and your scores needed to reflect that or you were not even considered. Many of those I served with... later got out and went on to college. Quite a few of us have done fairly well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #132 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhatever you do, don't read the DOD sites I just posted... no, gotta keep the truth suppressed as we do here in the good ole US of A. It still doesn't prove your hypothesis correct, as it compares enlisted military to non-military, and not enlisted military to college students. Don't get me wrong, your hypothesis sounds reasonable, but that is not the same as saying you have shown your hypothesis to be true. The DOD data I posted, 1 from 1998 and the other from 2004 shows a decline in standards for enlistees and an increase in the percentage of civilains attending college. As for the issue of whether college kids are more intelligent than their counterparts who enlist, I think a lot can be inferred that is virtually untestable, or that no tests have been done. In many scientific tests (imperical) the scientists use the available data and make inferrences. If you want to go against what is likely a positive conclusion that college kids are more intellectual, then you are fee to do that. Like I said previously, if you want to test your hypothesis, find a group that has taken both the ASVAB and the SAT (or ACT would work), and compare the scores of a random sample of those that graduated HS and went to college and those that graduated (or not) and went into the military. Without such a comparison, all the stats you've shown say nothing except you might be right. You certainly haven't proven anything in a scientific sense by linking to some websites. That's not how science works. That's how you write a biased editorial. I would be very interested in seeing the relevant comparisons.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #133 November 15, 2006 I didn't have time to read through ALL of the messages, but let me say this.... I went off to Navy boot camp after high school, and then served 4 years as an avioics tech on an aircraft carrier. After that, I attended a small liberal arts college in Pennsylvania (fairly well respected school). Without a doubt I can make this statement - On average, the freshmen I started college with were much smarter than the seamen recruits I started boot camp with. Now, had I been attending, let's say, Florida State, maybe the opposite would have been true. Zippo -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #134 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf you want to go against what is likely a positive conclusion that college kids are more intellectual, then you are fee to do that. How about this thrown in.. Many of those who go to college right after High School have FAMILILIES who can afford to send them off to college. That also does not include the propensity for MANY of them to not do well due to partying and just barely scraping by so they can stay there in school on daddies money. Many of those who do get by and get their basket weaving degree ( those art history degrees and such are hard to find jobs with) can always go into the family business. Many in the military I knew were there for the educational benefits and in the long run were better.. more driven students because they had some life experience that showed them what it was going to be like WITHOUT that education. I was in thru the 1970's... many went into the Air Force because of the percieved safty of service there rather than being drafted into the Army or Marines with the assured trip to Vietnam. To get into the Air Force at that time was far harder than getting into the other services... and your scores needed to reflect that or you were not even considered. Many of those I served with... later got out and went on to college. Quite a few of us have done fairly well. Point is, at that time. I'm not talking what their potential is, I;m saying that at 18 when they face the fork in the road, some go college, some go military and others do something civilian; I believe those who go military are the ones from bad families and are AT THAT TIME of lower intellect. That was the case with me and I believe it was the case for most of my cohorts at that time. As fro today, who would want to go in? You have FAFSA loans which are all but guaranteed, so college IS an easy option of you are so inclined. As an average, 18 YO kids that go into the military are les intellectual than those who go to college and the spread grows the longer they stay that way. Many GI's go to college and reverse the flow, I am one of those. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #135 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhatever you do, don't read the DOD sites I just posted... no, gotta keep the truth suppressed as we do here in the good ole US of A. It still doesn't prove your hypothesis correct, as it compares enlisted military to non-military, and not enlisted military to college students. Don't get me wrong, your hypothesis sounds reasonable, but that is not the same as saying you have shown your hypothesis to be true. The DOD data I posted, 1 from 1998 and the other from 2004 shows a decline in standards for enlistees and an increase in the percentage of civilains attending college. As for the issue of whether college kids are more intelligent than their counterparts who enlist, I think a lot can be inferred that is virtually untestable, or that no tests have been done. In many scientific tests (imperical) the scientists use the available data and make inferrences. If you want to go against what is likely a positive conclusion that college kids are more intellectual, then you are fee to do that. Like I said previously, if you want to test your hypothesis, find a group that has taken both the ASVAB and the SAT (or ACT would work), and compare the scores of a random sample of those that graduated HS and went to college and those that graduated (or not) and went into the military. Without such a comparison, all the stats you've shown say nothing except you might be right. You certainly haven't proven anything in a scientific sense by linking to some websites. That's not how science works. That's how you write a biased editorial. I would be very interested in seeing the relevant comparisons. Sure, that's fair, but based upon what I demonstrated thru the DOD website, my approach has been FAR more scientific than any other approach I've read. What I have established via the DOD websites is that the bar is lowering for enlistees and raising for civilians in college. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #136 November 15, 2006 QuoteI didn't have time to read through ALL of the messages, but let me say this.... I went off to Navy boot camp after high school, and then served 4 years as an avioics tech on an aircraft carrier. After that, I attended a small liberal arts college in Pennsylvania (fairly well respected school). Without a doubt I can make this statement - On average, the freshmen I started college with were much smarter than the seamen recruits I started boot camp with. Now, had I been attending, let's say, Florida State, maybe the opposite would have been true. Zippo This is exactly what I'm saying. The DOD data supports it and I think it is quite obviously true. The problem is that military guys are taking this as an attack to their character and it should be quite the opposite. I think it shows great character to enlist, perhaps not the brightest thing to do, but the most honorable. You're: - waiving ocnstitutional rights - living in poverty - losing your right to choose many thhings - contarcting several years away - puting yourself at risk, including death - agreeing to have some SOB in your face 24/7 - etc....... That is not an intelligent choice, but an honorable one since the result is that you will be defending any current or potential enemies to the US. The rich kids are at home being taken in by mommy and daddy, some living there well into their 20's. I work for a guy now who is my age and has a kid who's a 22YO version of what I described. He's rich spoiled POS in many ways, but the sharpest 22YO kid I've ever met. He's a nerd fucker, yet has a hot GF, new cars, always jet-setting around. When he tries to usurp power I put him in his place so we now have that established. But he is what I speak of and I see it all the time just as I see the 18YO GI who HAS to go in for financial reasons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #137 November 15, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- they prefer guys who follow orders and do not take the risk that anyone start do some thinking of their own in the heat of the battle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, you're wrong. Explain why they had to knock the bottom out of the candidate pool.... or just keep cutting-n-running from it. Because they needed more people. So thay had two options: 1. Increase the desire for the job. 2. Increase the available pool of people. As the war goes on it will be less and less popular to enlist. But truth be told they are trying both methods. Also college is MUCH easier to get into than before as well. My point is pretty simple, I got out a few years ago and my unit they encouraged us to think under fire. So maybe my unit was "special", but more likely your time in was different than modern service. The things I had to use to do my job was MUCH more technical than the weapons of my father. But my point has always been that you claim that soldiers are less intelligent than college students. And thats just been proven by anything you have shown. Both college and military has it's fair share of dumb asses and smart guys. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #138 November 15, 2006 QuoteSo how many "grunts" know how to take a Fourier transform, or even why one would be performed? My son the grunt certainly doesn't. How many college kids know that? Hint, I don't and I have 3.85 GPA with 71 credits completed. It might depend on the major. Also, you said you son does not know it....Would you consider him to be dumb? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #139 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo how many "grunts" know how to take a Fourier transform, or even why one would be performed? My son the grunt certainly doesn't. How many college kids know that? Hint, I don't and I have 3.85 GPA with 71 credits completed. It might depend on the major. Also, you said you son does not know it....Would you consider him to be dumb? Not at all, nor you. Just responding to a dismissive post on the topic of FTs. On the whole I think our population (military, college, and neither) is woefully undereducated in the natural sciences, but FTs are not a particularly valuable measure of that.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
busaunit 0 #140 November 16, 2006 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh-zwbPcByM&search=Soldiers I dont think these guys are as smart as american soldiers but they are smart enough to say no when you feel something is not right. Something that i think is lacking in some forces around the world. I can only hope sir donald and his merry men get hung for what they have done, maybe the can hang them with saddam and his merry men. We might all learn something from that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #141 November 18, 2006 >>>I for one, think you're full of shit Your one warning Now I feel better ...sometimes ya gotta do it yourself if the mods won't Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshatzkin 0 #142 November 18, 2006 Disclaimer: I scanned, but didn't read all the posts. I am only speaking for the Army: Having said that: Even people with GED's have to be on a "waiting list" to enlist. There are only so many slots for them. The "go to Army or go to jail" is old and no longer exists. If you have any criminal record, (including DUI, assault etc),..you have to get a waiver. In some cases you can't even get waived. It is true that many people use the military as an avenue to help with education. Perhaps lower enlisted, younger folks don't have the same education initially as their counterparts, they tend to gather more education along the way. I just read a statistic (I can't remember where) that over 70% of enlisted folks receive bachelor degrees within a few years of discharge. So a higher percentage of people who have served, are more educated in the long run. Plus they have a wonderful life experience. Compare that to the number of college freshman or sophmores who drop out of college. I enlisted at 18, with no college. My high school peers all went off to college while I was in the Army. I took college courses while I was in. I got out at 22, and by the time I was 26, I had obtained my bachelor AND master degrees. Not to mention that I graduated Magna Cum Laude (3.89 GPA) for my undergraduate and a 3.95 GPA for my graduate degree. All my friends who went to college first, only had bachelor degrees (and not as high GPA's) and not the same wonderful experiences I had. The good thing is that the Army college fund and GI bill paid for both degrees. Now I am making great money and have no college debt. Unlike my high school peers who have only bachelor degrees and thousands of dollars worth of debt (which is common). My younger brother went straight to college. He was very smart and had 2 scholarships for engineering. What he lacked was maturity and responsibility. He made it only 1 1/2 years before he dropped out. He is 24 now, and still has not gone back to school (or joined the military). So he was essentially more "educated" then I was at age 20,...but in the long run...... I learned so much from the military, and would not trade that experience for anything! I think I had more intellect by choosing to enlist and use the experience to mature and be responsible while earning money to put myself through college. (Just like anything in life) You get out of the military what you put into it.Jen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #143 November 18, 2006 Think that if it makes you feel better...I think things because theyare correct. You have presented no data to conclusively back your assertions. Kind of like when you try and discuss the budget. When you deal with someone who is familiar with it, you really have to back up what you say. You have failed to do so. Utterly. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #144 November 18, 2006 Thanks Jennifer.. great post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #145 November 18, 2006 That was a great post.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #146 November 18, 2006 QuoteDisclaimer: I scanned, but didn't read all the posts. I am only speaking for the Army: Having said that: Even people with GED's have to be on a "waiting list" to enlist. There are only so many slots for them. The "go to Army or go to jail" is old and no longer exists. If you have any criminal record, (including DUI, assault etc),..you have to get a waiver. In some cases you can't even get waived. It is true that many people use the military as an avenue to help with education. Perhaps lower enlisted, younger folks don't have the same education initially as their counterparts, they tend to gather more education along the way. I just read a statistic (I can't remember where) that over 70% of enlisted folks receive bachelor degrees within a few years of discharge. So a higher percentage of people who have served, are more educated in the long run. Plus they have a wonderful life experience. Compare that to the number of college freshman or sophmores who drop out of college. I enlisted at 18, with no college. My high school peers all went off to college while I was in the Army. I took college courses while I was in. I got out at 22, and by the time I was 26, I had obtained my bachelor AND master degrees. Not to mention that I graduated Magna Cum Laude (3.89 GPA) for my undergraduate and a 3.95 GPA for my graduate degree. All my friends who went to college first, only had bachelor degrees (and not as high GPA's) and not the same wonderful experiences I had. The good thing is that the Army college fund and GI bill paid for both degrees. Now I am making great money and have no college debt. Unlike my high school peers who have only bachelor degrees and thousands of dollars worth of debt (which is common). My younger brother went straight to college. He was very smart and had 2 scholarships for engineering. What he lacked was maturity and responsibility. He made it only 1 1/2 years before he dropped out. He is 24 now, and still has not gone back to school (or joined the military). So he was essentially more "educated" then I was at age 20,...but in the long run...... I learned so much from the military, and would not trade that experience for anything! I think I had more intellect by choosing to enlist and use the experience to mature and be responsible while earning money to put myself through college. (Just like anything in life) You get out of the military what you put into it. QuoteHaving said that: Even people with GED's have to be on a "waiting list" to enlist. Sure, the sites that I posted indicate that they don't take unlimited numbers of them. QuoteThe "go to Army or go to jail" is old and no longer exists. If you have any criminal record, (including DUI, assault etc),..you have to get a waiver. In some cases you can't even get waived. Uh, well, according to web sites I posted, the rate of dangerous criminals is increasing, as in the standards are lowering. QuoteI just read a statistic (I can't remember where) that over 70% of enlisted folks receive bachelor degrees within a few years of discharge. So a higher percentage of people who have served, are more educated in the long run. Plus they have a wonderful life experience. I question that and dismiss it w/o any supporting data. Furthermore, people are acting as if I wrote that enlisted troops are a bunch of morons that will never amount to anything and have no ability to learn. What I wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher, that's it. I also said that many enlistees get out to be very intelligent people, get degrees, etc... So your statement doesn't impeach what I wrote. QuoteCompare that to the number of college freshman or sophmores who drop out of college. Without a doubt. I think, in the flip side, college kids are a bit sheltered and lose that global experience, BUT, the college kids are more intellectual. QuoteI enlisted at 18, with no college. My high school peers all went off to college while I was in the Army. I took college courses while I was in. I got out at 22, and by the time I was 26, I had obtained my bachelor AND master degrees. Awesome for you! QuoteNot to mention that I graduated Magna Cum Laude (3.89 GPA) for my undergraduate and a 3.95 GPA for my graduate degree. Isn't 3.80+ Suma Cum Loudly? It is here, Magna is 3.60-3.79. QuoteThe good thing is that the Army college fund and GI bill paid for both degrees. Now I am making great money and have no college debt. Unlike my high school peers who have only bachelor degrees and thousands of dollars worth of debt (which is common). My younger brother went straight to college. He was very smart and had 2 scholarships for engineering. What he lacked was maturity and responsibility. He made it only 1 1/2 years before he dropped out. He is 24 now, and still has not gone back to school (or joined the military). So he was essentially more "educated" then I was at age 20,...but in the long run...... Absolutely. I bet if you IQ tested with your friends at 2 years in the service/college you would have been smoked. Now you would smoke them. Another point, you;re not speaking for the Army, you're speaking for yourself, which sounds like an exceptional individual. Are you going to say that all or most of your friends are from teh same ilk as you? The data I posted claims you are a 10%er, so you don't represent the Army but in the most remote circumstance. QuoteI learned so much from the military, and would not trade that experience for anything! I think I had more intellect by choosing to enlist and use the experience to mature and be responsible while earning money to put myself through college. Trying to correlate intellect of chice with raw intellect is a stretch. Intellect is a measurement tested via things like IQ tests, choice is derived from personal want, most of these have very little connection. For example, smart people make bad choices all the time, and the other way around too. Quote(Just like anything in life) You get out of the military what you put into it. In an abstract way perhaps. Many people get a lot from life without putting much into it, and the other way too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #147 November 18, 2006 QuoteThink that if it makes you feel better...I think things because theyare correct. You have presented no data to conclusively back your assertions. Kind of like when you try and discuss the budget. When you deal with someone who is familiar with it, you really have to back up what you say. You have failed to do so. Utterly. http://www.dod.gov/...tml/2-education.html http://www.dod.mil/...sions/education.html Those pretty much sum up the whole deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #148 November 18, 2006 QuoteThat was a great post. I agree, she is an exceptional person, military or no military, but it doesn't address my contention that the AVERAGE enlistee is intellectually inferior to the AVERAGE college student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #149 November 18, 2006 Her experience is not unique in the current Army. I take exception with your "IQ" test gibberish. The argument you keep making is using improper terms. Enlisted tend to join with the same Education as a College freshmen (if you use the 18 year old just out of high school as a base line), in say 12 to 24 months the freshmen in college will be a tad bit more EDUCATED. Education does not always mean a higher IQ or smarter. Why can't you seperate those things and admit that the "SMARTNESS" (IQ) of todays Soldier/Sailor/Airmen/Marine and Coast Guardsmen is higher than when you and I joined?An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #150 November 18, 2006 OK how to YOU measure intellect? SAT? ASVAB? GPA? Income? Job Title and position? Those are almost all material crap and mean absolutely nothing in the area of success in true intellect, life and happiness.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! 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Gawain 0 #145 November 18, 2006 That was a great post.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #146 November 18, 2006 QuoteDisclaimer: I scanned, but didn't read all the posts. I am only speaking for the Army: Having said that: Even people with GED's have to be on a "waiting list" to enlist. There are only so many slots for them. The "go to Army or go to jail" is old and no longer exists. If you have any criminal record, (including DUI, assault etc),..you have to get a waiver. In some cases you can't even get waived. It is true that many people use the military as an avenue to help with education. Perhaps lower enlisted, younger folks don't have the same education initially as their counterparts, they tend to gather more education along the way. I just read a statistic (I can't remember where) that over 70% of enlisted folks receive bachelor degrees within a few years of discharge. So a higher percentage of people who have served, are more educated in the long run. Plus they have a wonderful life experience. Compare that to the number of college freshman or sophmores who drop out of college. I enlisted at 18, with no college. My high school peers all went off to college while I was in the Army. I took college courses while I was in. I got out at 22, and by the time I was 26, I had obtained my bachelor AND master degrees. Not to mention that I graduated Magna Cum Laude (3.89 GPA) for my undergraduate and a 3.95 GPA for my graduate degree. All my friends who went to college first, only had bachelor degrees (and not as high GPA's) and not the same wonderful experiences I had. The good thing is that the Army college fund and GI bill paid for both degrees. Now I am making great money and have no college debt. Unlike my high school peers who have only bachelor degrees and thousands of dollars worth of debt (which is common). My younger brother went straight to college. He was very smart and had 2 scholarships for engineering. What he lacked was maturity and responsibility. He made it only 1 1/2 years before he dropped out. He is 24 now, and still has not gone back to school (or joined the military). So he was essentially more "educated" then I was at age 20,...but in the long run...... I learned so much from the military, and would not trade that experience for anything! I think I had more intellect by choosing to enlist and use the experience to mature and be responsible while earning money to put myself through college. (Just like anything in life) You get out of the military what you put into it. QuoteHaving said that: Even people with GED's have to be on a "waiting list" to enlist. Sure, the sites that I posted indicate that they don't take unlimited numbers of them. QuoteThe "go to Army or go to jail" is old and no longer exists. If you have any criminal record, (including DUI, assault etc),..you have to get a waiver. In some cases you can't even get waived. Uh, well, according to web sites I posted, the rate of dangerous criminals is increasing, as in the standards are lowering. QuoteI just read a statistic (I can't remember where) that over 70% of enlisted folks receive bachelor degrees within a few years of discharge. So a higher percentage of people who have served, are more educated in the long run. Plus they have a wonderful life experience. I question that and dismiss it w/o any supporting data. Furthermore, people are acting as if I wrote that enlisted troops are a bunch of morons that will never amount to anything and have no ability to learn. What I wrote was that if you tested enlistees and tested college kids the IQ scores of the latter would be higher, that's it. I also said that many enlistees get out to be very intelligent people, get degrees, etc... So your statement doesn't impeach what I wrote. QuoteCompare that to the number of college freshman or sophmores who drop out of college. Without a doubt. I think, in the flip side, college kids are a bit sheltered and lose that global experience, BUT, the college kids are more intellectual. QuoteI enlisted at 18, with no college. My high school peers all went off to college while I was in the Army. I took college courses while I was in. I got out at 22, and by the time I was 26, I had obtained my bachelor AND master degrees. Awesome for you! QuoteNot to mention that I graduated Magna Cum Laude (3.89 GPA) for my undergraduate and a 3.95 GPA for my graduate degree. Isn't 3.80+ Suma Cum Loudly? It is here, Magna is 3.60-3.79. QuoteThe good thing is that the Army college fund and GI bill paid for both degrees. Now I am making great money and have no college debt. Unlike my high school peers who have only bachelor degrees and thousands of dollars worth of debt (which is common). My younger brother went straight to college. He was very smart and had 2 scholarships for engineering. What he lacked was maturity and responsibility. He made it only 1 1/2 years before he dropped out. He is 24 now, and still has not gone back to school (or joined the military). So he was essentially more "educated" then I was at age 20,...but in the long run...... Absolutely. I bet if you IQ tested with your friends at 2 years in the service/college you would have been smoked. Now you would smoke them. Another point, you;re not speaking for the Army, you're speaking for yourself, which sounds like an exceptional individual. Are you going to say that all or most of your friends are from teh same ilk as you? The data I posted claims you are a 10%er, so you don't represent the Army but in the most remote circumstance. QuoteI learned so much from the military, and would not trade that experience for anything! I think I had more intellect by choosing to enlist and use the experience to mature and be responsible while earning money to put myself through college. Trying to correlate intellect of chice with raw intellect is a stretch. Intellect is a measurement tested via things like IQ tests, choice is derived from personal want, most of these have very little connection. For example, smart people make bad choices all the time, and the other way around too. Quote(Just like anything in life) You get out of the military what you put into it. In an abstract way perhaps. Many people get a lot from life without putting much into it, and the other way too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #147 November 18, 2006 QuoteThink that if it makes you feel better...I think things because theyare correct. You have presented no data to conclusively back your assertions. Kind of like when you try and discuss the budget. When you deal with someone who is familiar with it, you really have to back up what you say. You have failed to do so. Utterly. http://www.dod.gov/...tml/2-education.html http://www.dod.mil/...sions/education.html Those pretty much sum up the whole deal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #148 November 18, 2006 QuoteThat was a great post. I agree, she is an exceptional person, military or no military, but it doesn't address my contention that the AVERAGE enlistee is intellectually inferior to the AVERAGE college student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #149 November 18, 2006 Her experience is not unique in the current Army. I take exception with your "IQ" test gibberish. The argument you keep making is using improper terms. Enlisted tend to join with the same Education as a College freshmen (if you use the 18 year old just out of high school as a base line), in say 12 to 24 months the freshmen in college will be a tad bit more EDUCATED. Education does not always mean a higher IQ or smarter. Why can't you seperate those things and admit that the "SMARTNESS" (IQ) of todays Soldier/Sailor/Airmen/Marine and Coast Guardsmen is higher than when you and I joined?An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #150 November 18, 2006 OK how to YOU measure intellect? SAT? ASVAB? GPA? Income? Job Title and position? Those are almost all material crap and mean absolutely nothing in the area of success in true intellect, life and happiness.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
