Lucky... 0 #101 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuotethey prefer guys who follow orders and do not take the risk that anyone start do some thinking of their own in the heat of the battle. Wrong. No, you're wrong. Explain why they had to knock the bottom out of the candidate pool.... or just keep cutting-n-running from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #102 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteHe may be a one man rampage because it is very politically UNcorrect to not glorify the U.S army, so he may not be very popular. But there is many people who do not glorify an army (any country´s army) only for the sake of patriotism. The reason Lucky is getting trounced is because he's talking through his hat. His experience may have been valid at the time, but his recollection of the military ISN'T the way it is now. Is this kind of like asserting the Earth is flat because that's how it looks to me? See, and now you think the world is flat... case in point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #103 November 15, 2006 Yack yack yack..don't you get tired of bumping your gums? I for one, think you're full of shit, many others here may feel the same way. Are you always trying to offend anyone who has ever served? I think I am done reading your threads or responses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #104 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotethey prefer guys who follow orders and do not take the risk that anyone start do some thinking of their own in the heat of the battle. Wrong. No, you're wrong. Explain why they had to knock the bottom out of the candidate pool. Have you considered it might have to do with a historical high demand for soldiers in an all-volunteer army??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #105 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteIs this kind of like asserting the Earth is flat because that's how it looks to me? See, and now you think the world is flat... case in point. You should work on your reading comprehension. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,141 #106 November 15, 2006 This has got to be one of the silliest discussions/arguments ever. My hat is off to any person joining the military. Wether they are smart, genius or utterly stupid and I am pretty sure all three are represented in any western army, they should be thanked for their service to their country. Arguing about the average intelligence level of the average recruit or service member reminds me of that joke about the similarity between arguing on the internet and competing in the special olympics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #107 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteHe may be a one man rampage because it is very politically UNcorrect to not glorify the U.S army, so he may not be very popular. But there is many people who do not glorify an army (any country´s army) only for the sake of patriotism. The reason Lucky is getting trounced is because he's talking through his hat. His experience may have been valid at the time, but his recollection of the military ISN'T the way it is now. QuoteAnyway, what general wants an inteligent or very well formed soldier? Since most jobs in the army do not require to know how to do a Fouhrier Transformed they prefer guys who follow orders and do not take the risk that anyone start do some thinking of their own in the heat of the battle. And again, you show that you know very little about the military. The "dumb grunt" is a thing of the past. Todays military needs personnel that can think on their feet, not mindless robots that blindly follow the last order given. So how many "grunts" know how to take a Fourier transform, or even why one would be performed? My son the grunt certainly doesn't.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #108 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotethey prefer guys who follow orders and do not take the risk that anyone start do some thinking of their own in the heat of the battle. Wrong. No, you're wrong. Explain why they had to knock the bottom out of the candidate pool. Have you considered it might have to do with a historical high demand for soldiers in an all-volunteer army??? That's what happens when you start an optional war with an incompetent CinC.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #109 November 15, 2006 Here, I say fuck that Heritage site that is pro-military. DOD websites are objective. http://www.dod.gov/prhome/poprep98/html/2-education.html Look at the graph. They seperate high school from GED education, as they are not the same. Look at the bottom, 3% to 17% had some college, whereas 45% of their civilian counterparts had college. Can we drop this lunacy about enlistees being smarter now? This is from 98, but the standards have been lowered since then, so do we need to exlore that? I wishwe had a current one. While 99 percent of FY 1998 accessions were in Tiers 1 and 2, only 79 percent of 18- to 24-year-old civilians were high school graduates or possessed a GED certificate. ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ Ask and you shall receive. http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2004/enlisted_accessions/education.html This DOD graph is from 2004 and it indicates the military is getting less educated. The shocker is that the highest rate of college education before was the Air Force at 17%, now the Army is at 10%. DOD stayed hard at 7.1%. Whereas civilian counterparts went from 45% to 47% indicating the rate of college attendance is maintaining in the military and raising in the civilian sector. Here's another web citation to avoid.... cut-n-run style Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #110 November 15, 2006 QuoteWhat were you a less intelligent version of Gomer Pyle? WTF? sounds as if you were alwys in the constant company of idiots QuoteWhat were you a less intelligent version of Gomer Pyle? I don't need the PA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #111 November 15, 2006 QuoteYack yack yack..don't you get tired of bumping your gums? I for one, think you're full of shit, many others here may feel the same way. Are you always trying to offend anyone who has ever served? I think I am done reading your threads or responses. QuoteI for one, think you're full of shit, many others here may feel the same way. I especially don't need that one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #112 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotethey prefer guys who follow orders and do not take the risk that anyone start do some thinking of their own in the heat of the battle. Wrong. No, you're wrong. Explain why they had to knock the bottom out of the candidate pool. Have you considered it might have to do with a historical high demand for soldiers in an all-volunteer army??? Of course it is. I'm not dissecting the motive, just the result. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #113 November 15, 2006 QuoteThis has got to be one of the silliest discussions/arguments ever. My hat is off to any person joining the military. Wether they are smart, genius or utterly stupid and I am pretty sure all three are represented in any western army, they should be thanked for their service to their country. Arguing about the average intelligence level of the average recruit or service member reminds me of that joke about the similarity between arguing on the internet and competing in the special olympics. I totally agree with the first part. I was one of those dumb-bunnies that dropped out and enlisted. With that I was qualified to be a bombloader and ended up as an acft mech. I scored fairly high on the ASVAB as well as smoked the dummy GED test. I now have a BS from a state university. Retrospectively I feel the GED and the ASVAB are dummy tests. As for the second part, well, you are now part of it thanks to your own voluntary involvement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #114 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnyway, what general wants an inteligent or very well formed soldier? EXACTLY my point. Conscientious descent comes from this. They want em proud, brave and dumb. I can remember the first day of basic where we were all assembled in our street clothes. We were then ready to go up to the dorm room and the TI said ok, pick up your bags...... now put em down.....[ABOUT 1/2 DID SO] ... I said to put the motherfuckers down........ [MOST DID, BUT THERE WAS ALWAYS THAT GUY(NOT ME!)]..... so he gets up in the face of that guy and humiliates him..... pick em up, put em down, pick em up, put em down, pick em up, put em down, pick em up, put em down. Until they make you realize not to question idiocy, just comply. Dude I don't know what kind of unit you were in, or where, but the officers in our unit (a line unit) gave us all the gory details of everything going on, because the soldiers in the field in today's combat situations need to be able to make real decisions. If you couldn't see basic training for the game it was... ...by the way, I don't ever remember them calling our living space a dorm...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #115 November 15, 2006 QuoteLook at the bottom, 3% to 17% had some college, whereas 45% of their civilian counterparts had college. Can we drop this lunacy about enlistees being smarter now? Oh I get it now, you're equating college-degree with how smart someone is. Well, I'll dismiss that argument on the face of it. The only person in the world that I'm convinced is as smart as his degree(s) (and I don't even know what and how many he as) is Bill Von. A school degree doesn't equate to an individual's intelligence. I'm sure we all know some real dumb-asses with multiple sheets of paper hanging on the wall.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #116 November 15, 2006 Lucky, Yes the average Enlisted is not as EDUCATED as the average college kid, to start with. How ever they are just as SMART. What does the SAT test? Education from an institution. What does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. I commend you for your time in service, you joined because your life sucked and because of it, your service experience sucked (a predisposition from your pre-service life I would venture, but I can only put it together from your word in your posts). Others joined for various reasons and have the right to be proud and defend the time they served as much as you degrade your time you served. After all it is part of the reason we have a military here in the United States of America, to defend the freedom of speech (but the Constitution, Lawyers and Supreme Court do the heavy work there).An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #117 November 15, 2006 QuoteThe reason Lucky is getting trounced is because he's talking through his hat. His experience may have been valid at the time, but his recollection of the military ISN'T the way it is now. In fairness, Lucky's "opposition" has provided only anecdotal evidence. In other words, neither side has made a valid case supporting their assertions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #118 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnyway, what general wants an inteligent or very well formed soldier? EXACTLY my point. Conscientious descent comes from this. They want em proud, brave and dumb. I can remember the first day of basic where we were all assembled in our street clothes. We were then ready to go up to the dorm room and the TI said ok, pick up your bags...... now put em down.....[ABOUT 1/2 DID SO] ... I said to put the motherfuckers down........ [MOST DID, BUT THERE WAS ALWAYS THAT GUY(NOT ME!)]..... so he gets up in the face of that guy and humiliates him..... pick em up, put em down, pick em up, put em down, pick em up, put em down, pick em up, put em down. Until they make you realize not to question idiocy, just comply. Dude I don't know what kind of unit you were in, or where, but the officers in our unit (a line unit) gave us all the gory details of everything going on, because the soldiers in the field in today's combat situations need to be able to make real decisions. If you couldn't see basic training for the game it was... ...by the way, I don't ever remember them calling our living space a dorm... Perhaps barracks dorm room, whatever. If that's your way of questioning whether I was in, does it matter? Address the facts. I could be Clinton's draft dodging younger brother and the facts are the facts. See, when people don't have an argument/counterargument they attack the arguer, which is an Ad Hominem. BTW, we can put up a $1,000 bond, meet and I will fully substantiate I was in the military way back when if you want to question it. Loser loses the bond. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #119 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteLook at the bottom, 3% to 17% had some college, whereas 45% of their civilian counterparts had college. Can we drop this lunacy about enlistees being smarter now? Oh I get it now, you're equating college-degree with how smart someone is. Well, I'll dismiss that argument on the face of it. The only person in the world that I'm convinced is as smart as his degree(s) (and I don't even know what and how many he as) is Bill Von. A school degree doesn't equate to an individual's intelligence. I'm sure we all know some real dumb-asses with multiple sheets of paper hanging on the wall. I agree, but the original issue was: I asserted that if young GI's were given an IQ test along with their counterparts who went to school out of high school, the latter would score higher. I've posted all kinds of data that is continually ignored. Bottom line is that people equate me saying the above with me saying these guys are ignorant, stupid fucking retards. This is not the case and when these guys leave the service many get degrees, but you can't retroactively assign intelligence. Then they try to equate my message for an atatck of their character. This too is not the case. If these guys would argue what I write, not what they transpose into my my words, the issue would have remained unclouded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #120 November 15, 2006 QuotePerhaps barracks dorm room, whatever. If that's your way of questioning whether I was in, does it matter? Not really. I will admit, I've never met anyone who has been so reluctant to share what is, a minor detail about one's service. Like you said, it doesn't matter, so who cares. However, if you're going to say you served, there is no harm in actually saying when and what unit one was in, etc. Saying when you served would provide context to your point. Back in the 60s-70s, even 80s to a degree, your point may hold some water. Today, it doesn't. Proof? Why is the Army letting me stay in? QuoteAddress the facts. I did, by relating my direct experience, from the line (arguably where one might content the dumb people are sent). QuoteSee, when people don't have an argument/counterargument they attack the arguer, which is an Ad Hominem. I didn't attack you. I am contesting your argument which I believe is, on the current face, weak. QuoteBTW, we can put up a $1,000 bond, meet and I will fully substantiate I was in the military way back when if you want to question it. Loser loses the bond. I haven't openly doubted your service, so why would I give you all that jump money? Point is, you have a lot of people countering your argument, with what I have to presume is more current experience than your own. For some reason, you choose to conceal something with which you have nothing to be ashamed of if you served honorably. Either way, it's the Internet...and that trumps all other relevant context.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #121 November 15, 2006 QuoteI agree, but the original issue was: I asserted that if young GI's were given an IQ test along with their counterparts who went to school out of high school, the latter would score higher. I've posted all kinds of data that is continually ignored. Bottom line is that people equate me saying the above with me saying these guys are ignorant, stupid fucking retards. This is not the case and when these guys leave the service many get degrees, but you can't retroactively assign intelligence. Then they try to equate my message for an atatck of their character. This too is not the case. If these guys would argue what I write, not what they transpose into my my words, the issue would have remained unclouded. I'll still argue against that. IQ as a measure of intelligence is one thing. You were talking about education level. Either way, I don't think there would be as much of a disparity as you contend, even in an IQ perspective.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #122 November 15, 2006 QuoteLucky, Yes the average Enlisted is not as EDUCATED as the average college kid, to start with. How ever they are just as SMART. What does the SAT test? Education from an institution. What does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. I commend you for your time in service, you joined because your life sucked and because of it, your service experience sucked (a predisposition from your pre-service life I would venture, but I can only put it together from your word in your posts). Others joined for various reasons and have the right to be proud and defend the time they served as much as you degrade your time you served. After all it is part of the reason we have a military here in the United States of America, to defend the freedom of speech (but the Constitution, Lawyers and Supreme Court do the heavy work there). My whole point is that the intellect of GI's isn't that of college kids. You essentially agree. I'm not attacking the potential, just the present. QuoteWhat does the SAT test? Education from an institution. Yes, which is the only measureable entity, right? You can talk street smarts, but you can't measure it. You can say college kids are out of shape pussies, but you can't fuck with the football team. The only measureable entity is the intellect via IQ or other testing, SAT, LSAT, MSAT, etc... QuoteWhat does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. LIfe experiences? Really? Been a while, but I recall basic math, english and perception/problem solving stuff. WHat life experience stuff is on there? Quoteyou joined because your life sucked and because of it, your service experience sucked No, seperate deals. I knew a few people that came from good homes and their serive experiences differed. QuoteAfter all it is part of the reason we have a military here in the United States of America, to defend the freedom of speech (but the Constitution, Lawyers and Supreme Court do the heavy work there). No, our Constitution is a contract between the government and the people, our military almost exclusively defends the US from foreign enemies. This is the glorified horseshit the military fed me too. Esp the 1st, has ZERO to do with the military unless the US does a Kent State in which the military is overdefending the US against its people. Finally, I'm not attacking the reasons people enlist, just that enlistees are not as, "smart" as those who attend college. Don't read more into it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #123 November 15, 2006 QuoteI don't ever remember them calling our living space a dorm... I've heard Air Force refer to their barracks as dorms, in the early nineties.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #124 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe reason Lucky is getting trounced is because he's talking through his hat. His experience may have been valid at the time, but his recollection of the military ISN'T the way it is now. In fairness, Lucky's "opposition" has provided only anecdotal evidence. In other words, neither side has made a valid case supporting their assertions. Whatever you do, don't read the DOD sites I just posted... no, gotta keep the truth suppressed as we do here in the good ole US of A. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #125 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat does the ASVAB Test? Education from an Institution and LIFE experiences. LIfe experiences? Really? Been a while, but I recall basic math, english and perception/problem solving stuff. WHat life experience stuff is on there? That would be the problem solving and perception/association part. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
