jakee 1,255 #51 November 14, 2006 You don't have to read itDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #52 November 14, 2006 QuoteThe Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, which are called the "Synoptic Gospels," on the one hand, and the Gospel of John, on the other, stand at opposite extremes of thought. So complete is the difference between the teaching of the first three Gospels and that of the fourth, that every critic admits that if Jesus taught as the Synoptics relate, he could not possibly have taught as John declares. Indeed, in the first three Gospels and in the fourth, we meet with two entirely different Christs. Did I say two? It should be three; for, according to Mark, Christ was a man; according to Matthew and Luke, he was a demigod; while John insists that he was God himself. Every critic ... I don't think so. 4 Gospel writers - 4 intended audiences. For example ... Matthew Speaks to Jews, therefore you have a lot of OT references and fulfillment of OT passages. Luke speaks to the Gentiles and speaks little of JC Jewish heritage Had all 4 gospels contained the exact stories and quotes everyone would have complained of collusion. You can't have it both ways. Your understanding in how to study and interpret theology is as lacking as my knowledge of physics. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #53 November 14, 2006 QuoteWhy not for a moment, entertain the thought that there *might* actually be an enemy out there that hates your guts so much, and would like nothing other than to steal and kill anything he could in your life. He laughs everytime God is mocked and rejoices when people reject Christ and the Bible. Okay. I'll play. Assumption 1: God is all powerful and all knowing. Assumption 2: God is eternal. God created Satan. Since God is all powerful and all knowing, He is incapable of creating anything imperfectly, that is, in a way different than intended. Therefore, Satan was a perfect creation. Since God is eternal, and exists separate from time, Satan's perfection as one of God's creation cannot change. He is either always perfect, or was never perfect. Therefore, Satan is always acting exactly as God intended. Satan's will is God's will. To consider Satan an enemy of ourselves or God is illogical. Along the same lines, divine intervention implies God did not get it right when he set things into motion, therefore is not all powerful or all knowing. Free will implies God is not eternal and all knowing, since it requires that our lives would be unknowable by God until we've actually made choices. Why not entertain for a moment the thought that the Bible was written as a way to answer questions for people in an age where we didn't really have answers, and that the advent of science allows us to ask the right questions so that we find real answers..Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #54 November 14, 2006 QuoteThis reminds me of when I was a kid and the "devil worshipers" came to town. Haven't thought about them in years. Wonder if they really were devil worshipers....lol. linz Clearly a case of mistaken identity. If it was an election year, they were probably politicians on the campaign trail. If it was a non-election year, they were probably owners of professional sports teams blackmailing the local politicians into giving them several hundred million dollars for a stadium. BTW, we can't be too far away from the 1st billion dollar stadium, heh? And all it will take to get it done is another sales tax hike on all business conducted within nuclear blast range of the intrended site. Now THAT'S true evil." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #55 November 14, 2006 QuoteGod created Satan. Since God is all powerful and all knowing, He is incapable of creating anything imperfectly, that is, in a way different than intended. Therefore, Satan was a perfect creation. Since God is eternal, and exists separate from time, Satan's perfection as one of God's creation cannot change. .. I'm not a creationist so I'm not arguing for a literal reading of Genesis, but you are making assumptions. God can create something (man/angels) with a free will. While created ina perfect state they can rebel. Both Satan and man rebelled against God. Omnipotence doesn't negate free will. It implies God knows what we will choose, not that he dictates it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #56 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteI have done, now refute it......... if you can I'm not the angry one with the point to prove. I'm goint to go outside in this beautiful Fl. sunshine, play in my garden for a while, and just enjoy the goodness and blessings of the God that I believe in. Good for you. When you get back inside I have some magical beans to sell you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #57 November 15, 2006 QuoteHe laughs everytime God is mocked and rejoices when people reject Christ and the Bible. So do I. Doesn't make me Satan though. Just makes me someone happy to see someone surface into the light of reason and become a full member of the human race. Ahhh organized religion. A nice slow moving simpleton to poke with a stick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #58 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteGod created Satan. Since God is all powerful and all knowing, He is incapable of creating anything imperfectly, that is, in a way different than intended. Therefore, Satan was a perfect creation. Since God is eternal, and exists separate from time, Satan's perfection as one of God's creation cannot change. .. I'm not a creationist so I'm not arguing for a literal reading of Genesis, but you are making assumptions. God can create something (man/angels) with a free will. While created ina perfect state they can rebel. Both Satan and man rebelled against God. Omnipotence doesn't negate free will. It implies God knows what we will choose, not that he dictates it. If they rebel using free will, they are not perfect creations of an eternal entity, thereby contradicting the all powerful assumption.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #59 November 15, 2006 I didn't say Satan or anything was a perfect creation. Being created in a perfect state was a mistatement. It was a world without rebellion. My bad .. . steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #60 November 15, 2006 QuoteI didn't say Satan or anything was a perfect creation. Being created in a perfect state was a mistatement. It was a world without rebellion. My bad .. . Are you saying that God was unaware that Satan would rebel? Or, are you saying that God knew Satan was going to rebel?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #61 November 15, 2006 Quote Omnipotence doesn't negate free will. It implies God knows what we will choose, not that he dictates it. Wrong, Again.. If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined. "There is a light switch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?" e If you knew a decision you are going to make in the future... what would it mean? You would have no free will to change that choice. No option, no choices... based on the fact that you know it's going to happen, it is predestined and no amount of strong will can change it. The further in the future the predicted choice is, the less free will you have to change it! Well imagine if for infinity you'd always known exactly what choices you were going to make and that you could never be wrong. You would never have had any free will in any choice, ever! In effect your God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path... Why is so hard to understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #62 November 15, 2006 QuoteI didn't say Satan or anything was a perfect creation. Being created in a perfect state was a mistatement. It was a world without rebellion. My bad .. . You might not say that satan was perfect but the bible does... Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) who was perfect (Ezekiel 28:14,15) ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #63 November 15, 2006 a better transalation of the Hebrew word "tamiyn" that is translated in the KJV as "perfect" is "without blemish" He was created without blemish but rebelled. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #64 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteI didn't say Satan or anything was a perfect creation. Being created in a perfect state was a mistatement. It was a world without rebellion. My bad .. . You might not say that satan was perfect but the bible does... Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) A great number of theologians including myself believe that passge does not refer to Satan, but to the king of Babylon, read the entire passage steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #65 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI didn't say Satan or anything was a perfect creation. Being created in a perfect state was a mistatement. It was a world without rebellion. My bad .. . You might not say that satan was perfect but the bible does... Satan was an angel (Isaiah 14: 12) A great number of theologians including myself believe that passge does not refer to Satan, but to the king of Babylon, read the entire passage I have "read" the "entire" passage, and I dont see how you could come to any other conclusion that the passage refers to anyone but satan?? You can keep making excuses you have to face reality. Now just we are on the same page, here is my interpration. I have highled important sections to make it easy perhaps for you.. "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor . . ." Ezekiel 28:12 Under the figure of "King of Tyrus," Ezekiel declares that this great-created being "had the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty." Ezekiel 28:12–19 describes Satan’s original state as the anointed cherub who was not only a created being, but created perfect (vss. 12-13). He enjoyed the highest position and honor in the presence of God (28:14, 16). Further, Isaiah spoke of him as Lucifer, “star of the morning , son of the dawn” - Isaiah 14:12-15.He was on the holy mountain of God and every precious stone was his covering. He was set there as "the anointed covering cherub" by God and walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire. He was perhaps the appointed guardian of the holiness of God, probably over this original planet earth. The inspired record says, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" - Ezekiel. 28:12-15. So which bit exactly makes you and the "great" number of theologians beleive this passage relates to anyone but satan ----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #66 November 15, 2006 Quote So which bit exactly makes you and the "great" number of theologians beleive this passage relates to anyone but satan From MAtthew Henry commentary on Ez 28 Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary << Ezekiel 27 | Ezekiel 28 | Ezekiel 29 >> (Read all of Ezekiel 28) Related Commentaries Ezekiel 28 Matthew Henry’s Commentary Chapter Contents The sentence against the prince or king of Tyre. (1-19) The fall of Zidon. (20-23) The restoration of Israel. (24-26) Commentary on Ezekiel 28:1-19 Ethbaal, or Ithobal, was the prince or king of Tyre; and being lifted up with excessive pride, he claimed Divine honours. Pride is peculiarly the sin of our fallen nature. Nor can any wisdom, except that which the Lord gives, lead to happiness in this world or in that which is to come. The haughty prince of Tyre thought he was able to protect his people by his own power, and considered himself as equal to the inhabitants of heaven. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ others The Adam Clarke Commentary Chapter 28 The first part of this chapter relates to a King of Tyre, probably the same who is called in the Phoenician annals Ithobalus. He seems to have been a vain man, who affected Divine honours. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible Chapter 28 Chapter Overview A prediction of the ruin of the king of Tyre, verse 1-10. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I know you claim to be an atheist, but you sound much more like a fundamental Baptist preacher with your biblical interpretations. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #67 November 15, 2006 Quote This is a little bit of a long post, but I think you will find it very interesting. What I find to be interesting is why someone who claims to have absolutely no belief in God would spend so much time[I'm guessing several hours in this thread alone] arguing about absolutely nothing[remember, God doesn't exist] with those who believe otherwise. Browbeating someone who doesn't hold your point of view is an absolute waste of time. This is a two way street. I personally don't care if your eyes are opened ten seconds after you take your last breath. On a side, to give glory to Satan is to admit that he was created by something or someone. You can't have it both ways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skysaintj 0 #68 November 15, 2006 Good explanation brother If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #69 November 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteI didn't say Satan or anything was a perfect creation. Being created in a perfect state was a mistatement. It was a world without rebellion. My bad .. . Are you saying that God was unaware that Satan would rebel? Or, are you saying that God knew Satan was going to rebel? Ahem! Mr. Steveorino?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #70 November 15, 2006 Here's the thing. There is VERY little in scripture about the origin of Satan. In essence the scriptures are virtually silent on his origin. Some theologians and most people are uncomfortable about areas where the Bible is silent, therefore they "create" their own story that makes sense to them. I prefer not to do that. For instance. Some attribute passages such as EZ 28 to be about Satan (but that passage is a prophecy about the King of Tyre) Truthfully, I do not believe the Bible teaches much about Satan's origins. For that cause I prefer not to comment. Yes, I know some will see that as a copout ... so be it. I simply prefer to not answer scriptures's silence with my own eisegesis. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #71 November 15, 2006 QuoteHere's the thing. There is VERY little in scripture about the origin of Satan. In essence the scriptures are virtually silent on his origin. Some theologians and most people are uncomfortable about areas where the Bible is silent, therefore they "create" their own story that makes sense to them. I prefer not to do that. For instance. Some attribute passages such as EZ 28 to be about Satan (but that passage is a prophecy about the King of Tyre) Truthfully, I do not believe the Bible teaches much about Satan's origins. For that cause I prefer not to comment. Yes, I know some will see that as a copout ... so be it. I simply prefer to not answer scriptures's silence with my own eisegesis. It doesn't matter which way you answer. If God didn't know Satan was going to rebel, then God is not all knowing. Of course, such a paradox does not apply to all interpretations of Genesis. I'll try to dig up such an example out of my books. I'm not comfortable trying to explain it from memory.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #72 November 15, 2006 I guess I'm not buying your "if you're omnipotent and omniscience -- no one has free will" argument. It has flaws in it's conception, the first being that you can think like an omnipotent and omniscience god. the fact that if you could somehow know what someone was going to do with 100% accuracy that you would be dictating their choice doesn't make sense to me.. But maybe it is just me. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #73 November 15, 2006 QuoteI guess I'm not buying your "if you're omnipotent and omniscience -- no one has free will" argument. It has flaws in it's conception, the first being that you can think like an omnipotent and omniscience god. the fact that if you could somehow know what someone was going to do with 100% accuracy that you would be dictating their choice doesn't make sense to me.. But maybe it is just me. Either the information is there or it isn't. Just because I don't know my future does not imply I have free will. If an omnipotent and eternal God knows my future, then my future choices are already mapped out; I have a destiny to fulfill. My perception of free will is an illusion.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #74 November 15, 2006 Well, your theology of Satan sounds like Brother Al's from the Second Baptist Church in Podunk, Okiehoma, so I guess it stands to reason you'd be a "calvinist". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/calvinist steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #75 November 15, 2006 QuoteWell, your theology of Satan sounds like Brother Al's from the Second Baptist Church in Podunk, Okiehoma I'm sorry you feel that way. I've made every attempt to rely strictly on information from the Bible. Quoteso I guess it stands to reason you'd be a "calvinist". http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/calvinist Nope. I've not been professing my own beliefs. I merely examined a hypothetical situation proposed by another poster, on whose behalf (perhaps unknowingly) you debated. If you want to give me an over-simplistic label, I would prefer you think of me as a Pythagorean.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
