Voting preference of the military

[billvon 2,453]

>Watching the armor come to us down-range the new vehicles with
>the armor built on was coming in-country as fast as I could see
>humanly possible . . .

That's great! It sounds like a few more months of preparation might have made all the difference, then. It would have given time for those welders to adequately equip vehicles before the troops in them needed it.

>Again I point back to the prior administration and say why is it
>that more than an entire decade passed between when the Army first
>started seeing body armor with the plates and when the last soldiers
>finally had them.

I'd say it's the duty of a leader to not commit troops to action until they have adequate equipment. Committing troops with inadequate equipment to a conflict, hoping you can blame someone else, sounds like bad leadership to me.

> But hey with Clinton . . .

As usual.

I think perhaps I'll start blaming Nixon for everything. It's easier.

[TheAnvil 0]

>Again I point back to the prior administration and say why is it
>that more than an entire decade passed between when the Army first
>started seeing body armor with the plates and when the last soldiers
>finally had them.

If the media were interested in the actual answer to this question, they would have interviewed the person who would have been able to answer it. They didn't. I'm interested as well, but feel I already know the answer. Secretary Rumsfeld's quote in that regard was quite apropos, though used out of context to slander the man shamelessly.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Amazon 7]

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I'd say it's the duty of a leader to not commit troops to action until they have adequate equipment. Committing troops with inadequate equipment to a conflict, hoping you can blame someone else, sounds like bad leadership to me.

When you have an optional war.... you would think they could plan better.. like deferring something not needed for a while.... like another aircraft carrier... so the troops who actually go into harms way would have the equipment they needed.... and then sending in the reservists... with even more inferior equipment... that is just criminal.

[kallend 1,660]

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I'd say it's the duty of a leader to not commit troops to action until they have adequate equipment. Committing troops with inadequate equipment to a conflict, hoping you can blame someone else, sounds like bad leadership to me.

When you have an optional war.... you would think they could plan better.. like deferring something not needed for a while.... like another aircraft carrier... so the troops who actually go into harms way would have the equipment they needed.... and then sending in the reservists... with even more inferior equipment... that is just criminal.

But...but... they couldn't wait. Weren't you listening to Bush? They only had 45 minutes before Iraqi RPVs would be dropping chemical weapons on the USA.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Royd 0]

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I don't agree with you or the proj - leadership seems to be talent rather than a learned skill.

I agree. There are some people who don't need to be led, and they don't need a college education to get the job done properly.

Believe me, I've dealt with plenty of supervisory types who were just taking up space. Lots of BS and little real experience.

[ExAFO 0]

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A master's degree is preferred, but not required for getting past the O-4 level.

...unless you're an aviator, in which case you get a free pass for life... such bullshit.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[TheAnvil 0]

This is true. THe Army has the right model with regards to aviators - the warrant officer. Perfect. Working with those aviator guys at the higher levels is akin to working with JO's in so many regards because their administrative/leadership skils with respect to their peers is simply not there. They've spent too much time sleeping and flying to develop them - as a general rule of thumb. There are exceptions - and I know several.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Lucky... 0]

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Common place? Let me guess you’re not one of the college students. I bet the rate of enlisted guys attending even 1 college class per semester is <10%. I wouldn’t call it commonplace, although I do know some guys even go to OCS, and they make the best officers in that they’re not peckers like the college kids that go right in.

Actually, I am one of the college kids, in my spare time I'm pursuing a degree in marketing and in a few years when I get out I will be going to college full time to get an MBA.

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Now you’re speaking for most soldiers w/o any data……this supports my assertion and I don’t mean that in an attacking way, just that educated people tend not to speak in absolutes, at least not very often, and they don’t continually speak for others of whom they don’t know. My perception is that kids go in the military enlisted because their life sucks and they want to get away. It was that way for me and I doubt it has changed, but it would be impossible for either one of us to establish the motives of the rest of the military. As for funds, have you heard of, FAFSA? FAFSA is a federal loan and is essentially guaranteed, so where does rich mommy/daddy come in? People enlist because home life sucks and they don’t wanna go to college, hence they aren’t the intellectual type.

Yes, what would I know about the motives of people joining the military, after having served for going on 8 years now I've never once talked with all the people I run into or work beside about why they are here. You speak of your perception of why people join the military, so you have absolutely nothing to back up what you are saying. The military does a survey every year to determine everything from the ethnic breakdown of its ranks to the level of education, and the stats are looking better and better every year when it comes to the number of soldiers pusruing a higher education. I don't have them readily available but if you would like I would be more than happy to look them up for you. Another thing about those stats is usually they go off posted records of soldiers to determine who is going to college, and considering that most of us don't update our records but once every couple years those stats are a few years behind. So when I say the majority of soldiers are pursuing an education in their spare time, it's for a reason. Take a look at the army website sometime and it mentions all over it how easy it is to pursue an education while in the service, the military has countless programs to help soldiers take college classes. To join most of those programs all you have to do is attend a briefing and sign up and everytime I drive past the ed-center when they are going on there is a line going out the door.

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See, you really make my case here. I grew up with the pathetic, “I gots street smarts” mentality. Although being a naïve punk-ass rich boy is as pathetic, reading and understanding the history of the nation, the world makes you a much more well rounded person. Uneducated = subservience / education = command.

Where did I ever say anything about us being better people because we have "street smarts" I simply said that I feel life experience and maturity will make you a better person in the long-run.

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Street smarts are like the contemporary Huggy Bear selling crack down the way. I doubt you’re in college, but you won’t understand what I wrote until after you graduate and then spend some time in life.

So you speak about how people who go straight to seeking a higher education are better yet you make continuous insults like this. None of what I said has been meant to be insulting or condescending, I am merely trying to enlighten you as to the fact that soldiers are not a bunch of mindless killing machines. I guess if I want to look educated I should start insulting college kids.

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They don’t want intelligence, as then they might have a conscientious objector, they want blind, stupid subservience and they do what they can to take reasonably intelligent kids and dumb them down as much as possible.

So you're saying that all the written tests I had to take during Special Forces selection which eliminated some of the people in my selection class because they didn't have the problem solving skill and general knowledge to operate the way that we do were to prove that I am a mindless killer? And the written tests all recruits take when they are preparing to enlist are so they can pick the dumbest? Even though they don't have a cap on scores to keep the smart ones out, but they do have minimum requirements.

Let's look at something else, in a few years I'll be out of the military preparing to enter the corporate world, after graduating when companies are flooded with brand new college grads who all have the same credentials for the most part, maybe there's a few honor society kids in there or someone who boasts being an eagle scout, who do you think is relaly going to have the advantage? There is a student who attended college just after high school, the high point of his resume is some sort of future entrepeneurs society and probably some academic achievements, both outstanding accomplishments that prove his ability to study hard and apply himself to a project. Then you have someone who spent close to 10 years in the military prior to attending college full time, the bright spots on the resume would probably include a few of the same academic achievements so looking at just the school portion the field is fairly level. But once you account for the fact that the former soldier has shown his ability to work as a team, work under adverse and stressful conditions, most likely has some outstanding military achievements(awards, commendations, and medals) from serving in combat, not to mention the soldier more than likely has extensive experience giving briefings to officers, and doing that requires you to be well-spoken, and confident, appearing before promotion boards also requires a great deal of confidence and you must present yourself in a professional manner. The soldier has also proven themselves to be a leader, officers aren't the only leaders in the military, actually they don't do much to lead, they write the plan and hand it to the senior enlisted leaders and let them make it happen. So who do you think is more likely to get the position?

Look, I haven't tried to insult you in any way in my posts, but you constantly trash and belittle myself and my fellow servicemembers everytime you touch the keyboard. All I am trying to do here is open your eyes a little, we aren't a bunch of mindless machines who can't think for ourselves, yes the military is an alternative for those who didn't finish school and opted to get a GED isntead, but once in the military they have every opportunity to further their education. There are also those of us who had every opportunity to go to school but chose to serve our country instead, does that make us any less smart than someone who chose to go to college? Because I opted to fight for my country for puny wages instead of going straight to college to get out and make a 6 figure income am I an idiot? The experiences I've had being in the military will never be equalled by anything I'll do as a civilian. You also talk about me making claims about statistics, but what do you have to back up your claims? A lot less than I do last time I checked.

Oh and a quick note on your claim about us not being in any better shape than civilians, again would you care to back up those claims?

Also the sigline I have, as mentioned by someone else its a variation of a quote by George Orwell, not something out of a Jack Nicholson movie.

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Actually, I am one of the college kids, in my spare time I'm pursuing a degree in marketing and in a few years when I get out I will be going to college full time to get an MBA.

That settles it then, a sample size of 1 - done deal. I still stand by my assertion that <10% of enlisted military personnel take even 3 credits toward at least an associates degree. How many are you taking?

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Yes, what would I know about the motives of people joining the military, after having served for going on 8 years now I've never once talked with all the people I run into or work beside about why they are here.

And yet you still think you can speak for all the people in all the branches of teh military. You will learn, especially if you ever get out of your first year of college, meaning > 30 credits, that data is highly important in a debate such as this. Tribal knowledge is good for the A-hole as the bar telling us about his street-smarts.

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You speak of your perception of why people join the military, so you have absolutely nothing to back up what you are saying.

As you stated, my perception. Idiots, morons constantly speak in terms of absolutes and pass them off as fact. If I had any data to provide I would, so I assert it as my opinion, not fact. I don't know if that data is available.

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The military does a survey every year to determine everything from the ethnic breakdown of its ranks to the level of education, and the stats are looking better and better every year when it comes to the number of soldiers pusruing a higher education. I don't have them readily available but if you would like I would be more than happy to look them up for you.

Ya, I will look too. You can't take your circle of friends, as if they are all in college, and use that as a representation of how many 100's of thpousands of troops? But sure, find it. I'm guessing <10% are enrolled in a collegiate class toward an associates or higher, not some fluffy elective class.

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Another thing about those stats is usually they go off posted records of soldiers to determine who is going to college, and considering that most of us don't update our records but once every couple years those stats are a few years behind.

Well, error in record can't intelligently be adjusted with a stroke of a pen as it fits your data. Furthermore, how many soldiers dropped out or finished school and are no longer attending?

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So when I say the majority of soldiers are pursuing an education in their spare time, it's for a reason.

Sure, the reaosn is that you want to make Kerry's remark invalid whether it's true or not.

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Take a look at the army website sometime and it mentions all over it how easy it is to pursue an education while in the service, the military has countless programs to help soldiers take college classes.

That means exactly, not more, not less, than ZERO. WHat they advertise and what is taken advantage of are different. Furthermore, with all the people being shipped over to Iraq, how does that affect the ability to attend school? When I was in there was no way to finish 1 semester, as there would be work requirements.

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To join most of those programs all you have to do is attend a briefing and sign up and everytime I drive past the ed-center when they are going on there is a line going out the door.

That's because they're too stupid to understand the hours of the division and they're closed.

Still, it means zero to the actual stats.

Remember what Kerry said and I affirm, if you got to college and study hard you will be ok, otherwise your ass is going to Iraq. If you fuck up and enlist w/o a degree, YOUR ASS WILL GO ENLISTED and possibly Iraq. Just because you enlist as an uneducated person and earn on 6 years later doesn;t mean you can retroactively say you were educated as you entered service.

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Where did I ever say anything about us being better people because we have "street smarts" I simply said that I feel life experience and maturity will make you a better person in the long-run.

You waggled street smarts around as if it matters; so sorry, it doesn't unless you're selling crack.

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So you speak about how people who go straight to seeking a higher education are better yet you make continuous insults like this. None of what I said has been meant to be insulting or condescending, I am merely trying to enlighten you as to the fact that soldiers are not a bunch of mindless killing machines. I guess if I want to look educated I should start insulting college kids.

Don't take it personally or as an insult. You will understand if/when you graduate. Street smarts as I had, you claim to have, are great if you're selling drugs, rolling people, etc.. "Book smarts" which are more than that, are far more important. WHo will have a better life, a 300lb doorman or a lawyer? Done arguing a silly point yet? We have bastardized natural selection, hell, look at the alpha male, Bill Gates.

Also, do I need to supply several sites that explain thru data how there is a direct correlation between education and income?

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So you're saying that all the written tests I had to take during Special Forces selection which eliminated some of the people in my selection class because they didn't have the problem solving skill and general knowledge to operate the way that we do were to prove that I am a mindless killer?

You're taking this personally. I'm not using you as a standard. I believe in statistics and using you as a sample-size of 1 to represent the entirety of the service doesn;t make for an honest argument.

Furthermore, you just admitted what I was arguing, many service members don't have critical thinking skills, I agree.

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And the written tests all recruits take when they are preparing to enlist are so they can pick the dumbest? Even though they don't have a cap on scores to keep the smart ones out, but they do have minimum requirements.

Are you smart/informed enought o know they call the tests the ASVAB? Why not address it as that? They do this to place for various higher end jobs. I bet if they gave both the ASVAB and the SAT to enlistees and college candidates the latter would score CONSIDERABLY higher. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I think most educated people would agree with me as well as any data would.

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Let's look at something else, in a few years I'll be out of the military preparing to enter the corporate world, ...

You presume.

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after graduating when companies are flooded with brand new college grads who all have the same credentials for the most part, maybe there's a few honor society kids in there or someone who boasts being an eagle scout, who do you think is relaly going to have the advantage?

The girl scouts, they were hotter gowing up, as I recall, and they brought their own cookies.

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There is a student who attended college just after high school, the high point of his resume is some sort of future entrepeneurs society and probably some academic achievements, both outstanding accomplishments that prove his ability to study hard and apply himself to a project. Then you have someone who spent close to 10 years in the military prior to attending college full time, the bright spots on the resume would probably include a few of the same academic achievements so looking at just the school portion the field is fairly level. But once you account for the fact that the former soldier has shown his ability to work as a team, work under adverse and stressful conditions, most likely has some outstanding military achievements(awards, commendations, and medals) from serving in combat, not to mention the soldier more than likely has extensive experience giving briefings to officers, and doing that requires you to be well-spoken, and confident, appearing before promotion boards also requires a great deal of confidence and you must present yourself in a professional manner. The soldier has also proven themselves to be a leader, officers aren't the only leaders in the military, actually they don't do much to lead, they write the plan and hand it to the senior enlisted leaders and let them make it happen. So who do you think is more likely to get the position?

I still say the girl scout, by now she's into her early 20's and hot as hell, who do want under your desk; you or her?

I'm joking.

You;re mixing apples/oranges here. You're comparing a 30 year old to a 22 year old. Some corps like em young so they can mold them. Most important jobs are filled thru teh grapevone anywho, so stop thinking qualifications matter.

After reading this, I see you buy all the BS they feed you, ala brainwashing. Let's compare you and your GI Joe background at 30 with a guy/girl who is also 30 and has a proven corporate track record of success that is documented. Don't think these guys are frothing at the mouth to hire a GI. In fact, most corps look at them as stupid for enlisting. Government agencies seem to like GI's, but corp guys think they're dumb for wasting their time. Don't believe me, OK. Furthermore, what I ran into was that military experience is often more focussed than civilian work, so they don't exactly adore that. Problem solving for a GI is to find your boss, as you don't dare do shit w/o them.

Furthermore, how far along are you? If you just started, count on 6 years at the very least to have an undergraduate degree, another 4 for a grad. You might be 35+ b4 you;re done, which is OK, but it sounds lofty by your time schedule.

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Look, I haven't tried to insult you in any way in my posts, but you constantly trash and belittle myself and my fellow servicemembers everytime you touch the keyboard.

No way dude. I was there, I have great repsect for people in that shit. But does that mean I must falsely say they are brilliant? Fuck no, intellectually I think they are way below the average person entering college. As a generalization, people enlist because their homelife sucks; it;s an easy way out. Even officers, why take a degree and piss it away for 20k per year, maybe 30 after 4 years. In the civilian world, people with smarts and motivation can do much better and usually opt for that.

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All I am trying to do here is open your eyes a little, we aren't a bunch of mindless machines who can't think for ourselves, yes the military is an alternative for those who didn't finish school and opted to get a GED isntead, but once in the military they have every opportunity to further their education.

You keep describing me to a T, then try to lecture to me how it is or is not. I:

- dropped out
- ran away to teh military when I was 17
- hated it when I was in
- got out as soon as I could
- earned a degree by entering college 10 years after I got out

Dude, I was you in many ways. I did't stay in that long, let me guess, you're married and have kids so you couldn't take the chance of exiting and trying the civilian world; am I right? I'm sure I am, although you really played with the idea of exiting, so instead you enlisted in college classes so when next reenlistment came up you's be ready to get out. Am I nailing this? I think so. You didn't refer to reenlisting after 10 years, you stated you would get out. Hell, you're 1/2 way to 20 and the great, well-deserved retirement, but it sucks so fucking bad you can't see being a lifer. THIS IS THE OLDEST BROKEN RECORD IN THE WORLD, I UNDERSTAND. BTW, best of luck to you with your goals.

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There are also those of us who had every opportunity to go to school but chose to serve our country instead, does that make us any less smart than someone who chose to go to college? Because I opted to fight for my country for puny wages instead of going straight to college to get out and make a 6 figure income am I an idiot?

No, you took the easy way out like me. Intellectually, you are likely a way below me or the average college grad. I'm sure you will do well and pass up a lot of us as you get educated, but that is hypothetical. I had to get pissed too in order to get the motivation to work and attend college 9-12 credits for 6 fucking years. I still am not doing well financially, but I have things distracting me.

You didn't opt to fight for your country, you enlisted during the Clinton years, so you just went in cause life sucked outside, now you justafyably want more, am I right? Please, no sanctmonious flag waving.

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The experiences I've had being in the military will never be equalled by anything I'll do as a civilian. You also talk about me making claims about statistics, but what do you have to back up your claims? A lot less than I do last time I checked.

As you look into your crystal ball, let me know the winners of the next 10 superbowls and see if they cover the spread or not. You sound very young by that assertion, can you at 20 something say that your life will only be less exciting and will not = your life to this point? That would make me depressed to think that.

As for my claims, all I wrote was that I would guess <10% of active military are enrolled in college classes toward an associates degree. What other assertions have I made that I need to backup with data? I diodn't make the 10% claim as fact, just opinion.

Lot less than you do? All you have asserted are opinions and presented them as facts, so I don't that either is greater or lesser.

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Oh and a quick note on your claim about us not being in any better shape than civilians, again would you care to back up those claims?

Yes, I'll head out tomorrow and do a BMI on all civilians that cross my path, you do the same.

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Also the sigline I have, as mentioned by someone else its a variation of a quote by George Orwell, not something out of a Jack Nicholson movie.

OK, doesnt it sound like a line from, A Few Good Men? You and your faggotty white uniforms, we're over here in Guantanamo Bay getting shot at while Americans sleep soundly in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do them harm.

I swear there was a deviation of that in that movie.... oh well

[ExAFO 0]

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Even officers, why take a degree and piss it away for 20k per year, maybe 30 after 4 years. In the civilian world, people with smarts and motivation can do much better and usually opt for that.

Hate to burst your bubble Sparky, but as a single USAF Captain (6 years time in service)I was clearing $64,000/yr....Not to mention the free Bachelor's Degree...

Now I'm in Law School (free, paid for by the VA, +$1100/mo cash), and I already have my MBA.

But hey, I'm just a stupid ex-Officer who was dumb enough to parlay a Political Science BA into a lucrative and honorable military career... YMMV.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[TheAnvil 0]

Perhaps you should learn a bit about what you're discussing prior to making such generalizations. This in particular is false:

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As a generalization, people enlist because their homelife sucks; it;s an easy way out. Even officers, why take a degree and piss it away for 20k per year, maybe 30 after 4 years. In the civilian world, people with smarts and motivation can do much better and usually opt for that.

You might want to actually look at what officers are paid and reconsider that. You might then want to speak with someone who actually has a bit of recruiting experience and rethink that generalization.

Your thoughts on the motivations of people who opt to stay in the military vice leave also bears a bit of reconsideration. Many officers stay for advanced education and the chance to use said advanced degree a bit in service to the nation on some really interesting things. Many enlisted fellows stay for the same reasons. The 'scared to get out' reason exists, true, but those people are in the minority.

Several companies make their profit from recruiting military officers and enlisted people with technical skills and placing them with companies. I'm sure all of them would disagree with you about corporations not liking miitary service very much. I think the value of a miiitary fellow to a corporation highly dependent upon the position to be filled and the experience of the individual person who would fill it. For some corporate positions, military folks are the ideal fit. For others - not so much. It's highly dependent on many variables so sweeping generalizations don't really work very well.

Kerry's remarks were stated to the wrong audience. What he said would go over well in circles of the far left. He simply forgot where he was. Deal with it.

The average level of education of military enlisted personell varies greatly. If you look at the technical ratings of each service, you'd find them quite well educated. The opposite would be true of the less technical ratings. Having dealt with a lot of college students, contractors, and corporate folks in many industries, I'd say they run the gamut of the intelligence spectrum as well. There are some who are quite bright and others who wouldn't be qualified to proof-read the title page of my high school term paper.

Your post is indicative of the hubris pervading many circles of the left today. This hubris is but one of many reasons the military leans to the right politically.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[ExAFO 0]

LCDRs are great, every MCPO should own a few.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Lucky... 0]

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What I find really funny is this...You make all kinds of claims with nothing to back them up.

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I don;t think soldiers are stupid, but I think they're not critical thinkers for the most part.

I don't think the level of fitness is that much better than that of civilians.

Then you insult the people you dont agree with for doing the SAME thing....HAHAHAHAAHAHA

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Now you’re speaking for most soldiers w/o any data……this supports my assertion and I don’t mean that in an attacking way, just that educated people tend not to speak in absolutes

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but I like to critically think like a white-collar person

You posts do not show it.

Here is a great example: you say : "By your grammar and punctuation I kind of doubt you are more than 100 level."

But look in your OWN post :" I don;t think soldiers are stupid"

He without grammer problems should cast the first stone

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What I find really funny is this...You make all kinds of claims with nothing to back them up.

OK, what claims and where do I not back them up? You're doing the same unless you state the claims by example and then explain how they're not backed.


Remember, saying I think or I don;t think is an opinion. Saying/writing all GI's definitely have a lower IQ is an absolute statement that requires backing. Shall I post data that demonstrates how income is correlated to education? GI's are amongst the lowest paid, so that is a very quick start to provide evidece that GI's aren't the smartest bunch around, but often go to college after the military and become very smart.

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Then you insult the people you dont agree with for doing the SAME thing

Insult them where for doing what? Can you describe thru example?

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Here is a great example: you say : "By your grammar and punctuation I kind of doubt you are more than 100 level."

But look in your OWN post :" I don;t think soldiers are stupid"

I was refering to syntax more than anything. If I don;t compose a post in WORD, it will be frought with error. In college/university, I took upper division English classes instead of music enjoyment, as I really wanted to minor in English; wish I had.

Having a lazy finger like me, and typing quickly and being too lazy to proff it is quite diff than not understanding basic syntax and having a semi-complex glossary in your head.

I don't want to let you out by making this a spelling contest, I want to discuss the merits.

Ever since I started using myt laptop I use a semicolon instead of an apostrophe, write teh, tehy and all kinds of shit. I'm writing a screenplay and really enjoy english, so if I err it's because I'm lazy.

Anyway, back to the point/issue; enlisted GI's are < intelectual than their colleg student counterparts as an average. I bet Lawrocket would agree.

[GQ_jumper 4]

I'd say it's the duty of a leader to not commit troops to action until they have adequate equipment. Committing troops with inadequate equipment to a conflict, hoping you can blame someone else, sounds like bad leadership to me.

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Don't forget that it wasn't all that long ago when a helmet was the only piece of protective equipment that was issued to us, a few people were given flak vests as well but for the most part we only got to protect our noggins

I'm not going to sit here and claim Bush was one hundred percent innocent Bill, yes there were other means that body armor could have been procurred, I'm not tyring to say you are completely wrong. But in all honesty we were in no way under equipped to move into Iraq when we did, I have personally operated many times without any sort of protective measure whatsoever, not just in terms of body protection but in unarmored civilian vehicles as well. I just find it a little wrong (IMO) to blame an administration which upped our budget for not having gear that should have been issued to us years prior. And honestly now I'd be more than happy to giv back all the new crap they give us give me plate carriers and a good rifle and I can take on the world

The thing that gets soldiers killed is not lack of protection, it's lack of an agressive posture(and my team has proved this countless times. We work in very small teams, quite often there are six of us(sometimes less) in 2 humvees, an easy target. The thing that keeps us from being attacked most of the time is the agressive nature in which we present ourselves, we aren't hiding behind the armor, we've got a guy on top of each vehicle on the gun fully aleart just looking for some trouble to stir up, people think we are insane when they see one of us leaning off the side of the vehicle damn near climbing down onto another car that got to close to us. and then less than five minutes later a convoy of 30+ vehicles comes down the same route and gets lit up, all the soldiers were hunkered down behind armor with the guns unmaned because they didn't want to stick their heads out. I'm not making this up, it has happened countless times to us. Just a little food for thought

Please excuse my horrible spelling in this post, I'm a little cranky right now and was typing a bit too fast, not to mention i'm only in the military cause I'm too dum to go to college

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[matthewcline 0]

Your funny.

My unit: 2 Officers and 25 enlisted.

12 Bachelors
10 Associates
1 Doctorate (enlisted! DOO)

2 Harvard grads (Enlisted again, damn!)
Texas A&M
AU
Duke
and many other locals.

Only 1 joined because the Civilian life sucked (I went and asked after reading your post), 8 joined for the college money, 1 for the AMED program (could lump that in to college money too I guess). 7 for the adventure and 6 for the Duty Honor and Country cause. 4 for Family reasons (trust fund being 2 of them, no service no money, they both re-enlisted last year).

Only 4 enlisted without at least an associates. Take away the two Officers and that leaves 21 enlisted with college when they joined.

So, they had a 2 year degree upon enlistment, are they smart for the degree or dumb for enlisting?

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Lucky... 0]

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Yes, basic training is a brainwashing process. Granted they don't try to disconnect your total memory, but they want to suppress the part of your mind that you use to reason.

Again, this makes me think you never were in.

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Dummies, yep, but hell, mist 18YO kids are, donlt you think? Show examples of intelligent kids other than child prodogies. Military or not, 18 YO kids are dummies, can you reject that?

Nice *attempt* at a backpeddle.

brain‧wash‧ing  /ˈbreɪnˌwɒʃɪŋ, -ˌwɔʃɪŋ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[breyn-wosh-ing, -waw-shing] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.
2. any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.
3. an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of captive audiences.
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brain·wash·ing (brnwshng, -wôshng) Pronunciation Key
n.
Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
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brain·wash·ing (brnwshng)
n.

Inducing a person to modify his or her beliefs, attitudes, or behavior by conditioning through various forms of pressure or torture.

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Main Entry: brain·wash·ing
Pronunciation: 'brAn-"wosh-i[ng], -"wäsh-
Function: noun
: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas —brain·wash transitive verb —brainwash noun —brain·wash·er noun
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brainwashing

n : forcible indoctrination into a new set of attitudes and beliefs

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Brainwashing, by defintion seems to go from torture to changing a person's core beliefs. I think the lower end of this fits basic training well. Most people have their attitudes midified in basic. SOme people don't need any modification, but most do.

I wrote:

Granted they don't try to disconnect your total memory, but they want to suppress the part of your mind that you use to reason.


They don't want young troops to reason, but to follow diections, PERIOD. What I wrote is true.

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Again, this makes me think you never were in.

I'm going to lie about serving 1 term? OK whatever.

I wrote:

Dummies, yep, but hell, mist 18YO kids are, donlt you think? Show examples of intelligent kids other than child prodogies. Military or not, 18 YO kids are dummies, can you reject that?

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Nice *attempt* at a backpeddle

Why the fuck would I backpedal? I'm not going to call 18YO kids and/or young GI's a bunch of ass-monkeys as I don't want to offend, but if someone else did I wouldn't disagree. As a rule, 18YO kids fuck up everything they touch, can you disagree? Why is insurance so high for them? Because they do shit that makes them look stupid, I did, most all did I bet, especially guys. I'm not trying to defame them and think it's great that they serve, but that doesn't mean I must be polite and say t hey are smart; smart kids go to college.

[ExAFO 0]

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I'm not going to call 18YO kids and/or young GI's a bunch of ass-monkeys as I don't want to offend, but if someone else did I wouldn't disagree. As a rule, 18YO kids fuck up everything they touch, can you disagree?

I could introduce you to some 18 yo Pararescuemen who just earned their berets. They'd disagree. They'd also be able to out jump you, and then patch you back up after beating the pulp out of you.

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I'm not trying to defame them

Well, you did.

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and think it's great that they serve, but that doesn't mean I must be polite and say t hey are smart;

You are really misguided, ill-informed, and not at all tactful on this, aren't you??

Troll.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Lucky... 0]

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Even officers, why take a degree and piss it away for 20k per year, maybe 30 after 4 years. In the civilian world, people with smarts and motivation can do much better and usually opt for that.

Hate to burst your bubble Sparky, but as a single USAF Captain (6 years time in service)I was clearing $64,000/yr....Not to mention the free Bachelor's Degree...

Now I'm in Law School (free, paid for by the VA, +$1100/mo cash), and I already have my MBA.

But hey, I'm just a stupid ex-Officer who was dumb enough to parlay a Political Science BA into a lucrative and honorable military career... YMMV.

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But hey, I'm just a stupid ex-Officer who was dumb enough to parlay a Political Science BA into a lucrative and honorable military career...

Apparently so, as I was referring to enlisted for the most part. I threw in junior officers, not captains, and I bet the base pay is <25k for butter bars. So, swwetpea, I don't think I'm wrong. I don't think it's bad to go in as an officer, I might do something else, but it's not too bad. When you graduate and get your JD/Bar card, how much will you make practicing for 6 years? Hmmm, would you have been wiser to have practiced right out of getting your BS/BA? Me thinks so. ...........

So I go and look, and low and behold, of course I'm right.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/2007paycharts/l/bl07offbasepay1.htm

Butter bar = just under 2500/mo base. I honestaly just guessed b4 I wrote that. And that's next year, so subtract Bush's WHOPPING 2% pay raise. I guess your boy is cutting the taxes of the disgustingly rich at the same time cutting the pay of the honorable poor. And these are the dumb bastards that die for the rich to keep the rich, rich and safe. SO excuse me if I call military guys dumb, I'm really not disparaging them, just defining them. I was one of them.

[ExAFO 0]

Hmmm...Free BA (paid by DoD) ~$37,000
Free MBA ~$20,000 (paid by DoD)
Free J.D. ~40,000 (paid by Illinois/Fed VA)

Me as an attorney at age 32 w/NO debts to pay off?

...I'd call it a good deal.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[akarunway 1]

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I have to say on that one me thinks engineers need 5 yrs in the FIELD (of their choice) before they ENGINEER>

Did you used to work for me? I recognize that attitude.

I'm pretty quick to note to new grads that they have an 'engineering degree' and they are now working to become 'engineers'. The degree doesn't mean they can call themselves that yet.

However, I know old hands, technicians and field operators with serious chips on their shoulders being total assholes to the new hire. Especially on questions as simple as calculating an angle. And I've seen it in person, they state the request, on purpose, in a very confusing way to validate their anger at them for having gone to school. These guys need to retire. (and, no - it's instigated more by this group typically than by cocky new grads. But it's usually the same people over and over, not all.)

I also know some terrific ones that never do this and work to bring the new grads up to speed. Kind of like master sargeants and chiefs in the military. These guys are absolutely the most valuable people in the company. I take extremely good care of these guys - they are worth 10 new engineers on any project and they never talk bad about their teammates regardless of experience levels.

The hourly guys need to decide what kind of person they want to be.

The new grads need to learn that they are just starting and need to listen for their first 6 months. If they approach the others with the respect they deserve, they'll get along better, sooner. Best bet, listen, be respectful, don't get outraged or cocky at ANYTHING until up to speed.

Hey I take the good w/ the bad. The young/old interested ones that come out into the field and ask questions I ALWAYS make friends w/ and they invite me into office so I can ask questions. Just like you said. It's the cocky ones on either side of the fence. BTW When I quit that job and called to tell them they passed the phone all around engineering to say goodbye, so I can't be all bad

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Lucky... 0]

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Your funny.

My unit: 2 Officers and 25 enlisted.

12 Bachelors
10 Associates
1 Doctorate (enlisted! DOO)

2 Harvard grads (Enlisted again, damn!)
Texas A&M
AU
Duke
and many other locals.

Only 1 joined because the Civilian life sucked (I went and asked after reading your post), 8 joined for the college money, 1 for the AMED program (could lump that in to college money too I guess). 7 for the adventure and 6 for the Duty Honor and Country cause. 4 for Family reasons (trust fund being 2 of them, no service no money, they both re-enlisted last year).

Only 4 enlisted without at least an associates. Take away the two Officers and that leaves 21 enlisted with college when they joined.

So, they had a 2 year degree upon enlistment, are they smart for the degree or dumb for enlisting?

That settles it, the military is a repository of geniuses asting as dumbasses. They're so smart they act dumb. Again, I fully respect military guys, especially enlisted, but I stand by my original point that the IQ AVERAGE is alarmingly higher with kids entering college after high school versus those entering the military as an elisted servicemember.

I was in the AF, which took the highest ASVAB scores then still does to my knowledge, and I believe guys would go in for lack of somethung better to do, as a rule. I keep in touch with some of my ex-military buddies and some are very successful and bright. They all wish they would have avoided the military and go right to college tho, just like me.

As for motives for being in, people don't always tell the truth. For example, people who are stuck in the military might say they want to be in for patriotioc reasons, when in reality they are fuckin stuck and life sucks. They have a family and haven't prepared themselves for the real world, so they reenlist and as a defense mechanism claim they love the military and the country, etc, etc....

Don't believe everything you hear/read........ all these guys claiming how great the service is... why is the attrition so great?

[billvon 2,453]

>I'm not going to sit here and claim Bush was one hundred percent innocent Bill . . .

Nor am I saying he was 100 percent wrong. The only issue I see is that there were certainly shortages - US generals were saying they could not get the armor they wanted quickly enough.* I hope we can make whatever changes we need in the procurement system to avoid these shortages in the future, and I suspect it was a big enough issue that it _will_ be fixed. I worry a bit when I see right wingers saying "all this whining over armor is a big lie!" - because if people believe them, then you help ensure the problem will _not_ be fixed in the future.

(BTW I'm glad you were not one of the people negatively impacted by the shortages!)



(* = "If I had the capability, I'd like to see everybody that needs enhanced SAPI to have it and at the rate we have now, we're going to have months before we get the kind of aggregate numbers we want to have"- General Catto)

[billvon 2,453]

>Troll.

Your one warning.

[akarunway 1]

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Yeah. Like all the body/truck armor they DIDN'T have when first deployed

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You should check the facts before you go pointing fingers, the body armor and up armored vehicles that you see all around the military nowadays weren't readily available when we deployed. The government contracted companies to make them for us, and the companies were cranking them out full speed but could not field them fast enough. If you want to point fingers how about you wind the clock back a couple of years. The type of body armor we have today was being fielded to upper level Special Operations units prior to Somalia. The military budget back then was too small for the rest of the military to get the armor, as soon as Bush took over he upped the budget so the rest of the military could have it. And as for vehicles, the type of armor we see has only been around for a few years, again once GW took over he had it being fielded full-bore, but you can only move so fast.

Wouldn't you think he (Bush) should have delayed deployment until the war machine was up to speed. No. Fuck the troops( the little guy). I'm all w/ you guys putting your lives on the line. It's this adminstration I have the beef w/. Stay safe

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

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[akarunway 1]

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I was sat at a table wth 2 O6's, an O5 and an O4

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My friend you are a far braver man than myself, I won't hesitate to jump into a firefight but I will chew my arm off to avoid sitting at a table like that

LOL. My ole man (the Full Bird Col} would rather hang out at the NCO club than the Officers club. He KNEW who had his back

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

• Quote

[Lucky... 0]

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I'm not going to call 18YO kids and/or young GI's a bunch of ass-monkeys as I don't want to offend, but if someone else did I wouldn't disagree. As a rule, 18YO kids fuck up everything they touch, can you disagree?

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I'm not trying to defame them

Well, you did.

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and think it's great that they serve, but that doesn't mean I must be polite and say t hey are smart;

You are really misguided, ill-informed, and not at all tactful on this, aren't you??

Troll.

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I could introduce you to some 18 yo Pararescuemen who just earned their berets. They'd disagree.

Berets don't make you intelligent, they make you accomplished within the realm of their service. You guys buy into the BS brainwashing, I did and it takes about 4 or 5 years to expell it, at least for me.

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They'd also be able to out jump you, and then patch you back up after beating the pulp out of you.

You don't know me, what I look loke, how big I am, how good a fighter I am, how prepared I am.... you just don't and yet you must pretend you do and your buddies are the toughest, strongets, etc..... I quit pretending I was the best, smartest, toughest after a few incidents where I realized I wasn't, young kids still haven't had that education yet, shall we call it street education.

Look at some cage fighters, some are monsters, some are everyday looking guys that look average to weak, but they could beat the hell out of your buddies with the pretty hats Ad Nausium. I know, HOOO-RAH, no one beats us, bla, bla, bla.... No one has killed 2900 brave kids either. Drop the, "no one can beat us" BS and enjoy your life, there will ALWAYS be someone tougher around the corner. Sorry, had to use an absolute,but I was warranted

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Well, you did.

No, I directed nothing at you, you just want all Americans to think like you, that's all.

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You are really misguided, ill-informed, and not at all tactful on this, aren't you??

If I don't think like you, I guess I am.

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Troll.

Nice, so you note that I was attacking the group, try to shame me, then follow-up with a persoanl attack. I understand. Perhaps you can send me your rules for life and I will learn how I should act.