Saudis Consider Banning Women From Mecca

[Skyrad 0]

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http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Saudi-Banning-Women.html

From the article:

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It was unclear why the step was being considered now, but officials say they have growing concerns about overcrowding, particularly at Mecca's Grand Mosque. The mosque contains the Kaaba, a large stone structure that Muslims around the world face during their daily prayers.

I've heard the "Kaaba" is a meteorite (...or, whatever it's called once it hits the ground). It simply amazes me that so many people pray to a rock, 5 times a day.

To think there are folks in the US who actually want to treat them as rational beings.

They don't pray to the rock, they pray to God, the rock is a stone in the Kaaba on one of the corners, as they go round the kaaba the pilgrims kiss the stone, just as Catholics may kiss a Cross or a rosery they aren't praying to a cross! Neither do Muslims pray to Mecca. Muslims pray facing Mecca as an act of unity, that all the Muslims at the same time are praying towards Mecca (not to Mecca) at the same time. Nor do Muslims pray to Muhammed, they see him only as a prophet, Gods last prophet. Muslims are monotheistic and pray only to God.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

Why the explanation man.
Don’t you know it is so much easier to Judge with out any knowledge?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[StreetScooby 5]

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Do you think making inaccurate statements about 10% of Muslims are killing people, and making ignorant remarks about their religion helps the culture clash?

You left the quotes off the 10%, and thus have quoted me out of context.

Do you deny there is a radical contingent in Islam that fomenting violent dissent on the planet, with the expressed aim of forcing everyone to convert to Islam?

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Again people need to get something threw there head.
You’re opinion of what people believe does not matter.

I couldn't care less what they believe, if they are peaceful. If they're going around killing people because of what they believe, it becomes a BIG issue. And, what's even worse, they have support within the Muslim community.

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I know many have a self-important issue but believe it or not Muslims don’t consider you all wise and all knowing.

My opinion of the Muslim religion as practised today isn't that high, I'll be honest. That religion tolerates radicals within their midst far more than they tolerate Muslim dissent or others who aren't Muslim.

I continue to see evidence that Islam is not a religion of peace.

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Just as mentioned by others we all have some beliefs that might seem ridicules, but we choose to respect their beliefs in hopes that they will respect ours.

There are many Muslims who choose not to respect what others believe. Hell, you see them on Al-Jazeera all the time.

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,450]

>So you still think that it's a law enforcement issue?

Yes.

How have most Al Qaeda members been killed/arrested so far? By international cooperation and police action. Not by indiscriminate bombing in Iraq.

>Until the Muslim community as a whole steps up to the plate, and
>takes care of the business at hand, they are all guilty by complicity.

We ARMED the Mujahideen. Those weapons are now being used against US troops. If inaction confers guilt, support confers far more.

[Michele 1]

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As for woman not being allowed I am not surprised by the Saudis they have manipulated Islam in so many ways to oppress woman. Unfortunately that is the case in many religions.

To be not allowed to worship? No, that doesn't happen in "many" religions. Orthodox jews who are female are allowed to worship. So are Catholics, christians, and the various sects of such.

Muslim women being prohibited from following their religion (i.e. not going to Mecca once in their lives) does indeed prevent them from practicing their religion to it's fullest extent (unless I've missed something. I'm no Islam scholar).

It would be similar to Orthodox women being prevented from worshipping on high holy days; a catholic female being forbidden to take communion; a christian woman being disallowed from participating in services.

The Islamic religion is pretty mysogynistic. Some other religions are, as well...but I see it far more prominently in the Islamic religion. To deny 1/2 the population the right to worship according to their holy book's direction is simply another way to assert the male power play, and is a sad, sad thing to see.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Andy9o8 0]

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As for woman not being allowed I am not surprised by the Saudis they have manipulated Islam in so many ways to oppress woman. Unfortunately that is the case in many religions.

To be not allowed to worship? No, that doesn't happen in "many" religions. Orthodox jews who are female are allowed to worship. So are Catholics, christians, and the various sects of such.

Muslim women being prohibited from following their religion (i.e. not going to Mecca once in their lives) does indeed prevent them from practicing their religion to it's fullest extent (unless I've missed something. I'm no Islam scholar).

It would be similar to Orthodox women being prevented from worshipping on high holy days; a catholic female being forbidden to take communion; a christian woman being disallowed from participating in services.

The Islamic religion is pretty mysogynistic. Some other religions are, as well...but I see it far more prominently in the Islamic religion. To deny 1/2 the population the right to worship according to their holy book's direction is simply another way to assert the male power play, and is a sad, sad thing to see.

Ciels-
Michele

For what it's worth:

The Catholic and (Christian) Orthodox churches prohibit women from becoming priests.

The Orthodox branch of Judaism prohibits women from becoming rabbis, or being counted toward a prayer quorum, or from reading the Torah aloud in synagogue.

MANY affected women argue (I think persuasively) that these restrictions relegate them to 2nd-class citizenship and prevent them from practicing their religion to its fullest extent.

I realize every analogy is, by definition, deficient, but I think the comparisons to Isamic women not becoming Imams or going on the Hajj are reasonable.

[Dolph 0]

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I realize every analogy is, by definition, deficient, but I think the comparisons to Isamic women not becoming Imams or going on the Hajj are reasonable.

Which is just another reason to despise these forms of organised religions.

Faith sponsored discrimination.

Organised religion is way too often taking what's supposed to be an intimate, private strength, bastardizing it, tainting it and turning it into a tool used to force personal beliefs and secular agendas on others.

I see no reason to respect such behaviour. I'll tolerate it though, liking a free society.

[Darius11 12]

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The Islamic religion is pretty mysogynistic. Some other religions are, as well...but I see it far more prominently in the Islamic religion. To deny 1/2 the population the right to worship according to their holy book's direction is simply another way to assert the male power play, and is a sad, sad thing to see.

I think you see it in Islam more cause that the recent concentration of news and media.
They are allowed to worship according to the article there not allowed or it is being considered for them not to be allowed to go to Kaba or perform there Haj. The Haj has many recommendation and not all Muslims perform the Haj in there life time at all.

There are many things you need to do first in your life.

However I do agree it is ridicules the base of the Koran says that men and woman are equal and not similar.
However as many religions do and have done in the past the Saudis who we consider our good allies in the Middle East are one of the nations that do use Islam as a way to oppress woman.

It happens in the US it happens in every religion or has happened in the past.

The focus of the world right now is on Islam and a one sided view of it. I mean when we have killed over 30K people and have spent 8,000,000,000,000 dollars we need to believe something. It is easy to say they’re crazy and backwards and don’t do thing the right way which of course is our way.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

You know what cracks me up dude.


We who are the lovers of peace, have killed more Muslims then 5 times 9-11, have used our military in there land, started wars, supported one side for are financial gain, had no issue with Sadam using WMD when it was convenient for us, and on and on and on.

How dare you judge Muslims when still to this day Christians and Jews have proven over and over again that when it comes to killing there # 1 by far.


Yea i wonder why they want to kill us.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[StreetScooby 5]

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How dare you judge Muslims when still to this day Christians and Jews have proven over and over again that when it comes to killing there # 1 by far.

Muslims strap bombs to themselves, and target women and children in shopping areas. Then, claim they're going to heaven because they did something good.

That's why I judge them.

Then, a non-trivial fraction of the rest of the Muslims claim them as heroes.

That's why I judge them.

The US military does not target Muslim women and children.

We are all engines of karma

[billvon 2,450]

>he US military does not target Muslim women and children.

Nope, we just kill em accidentally by the tens of thousands. That's a distinction I don't think makes much difference when it's your wife and kids that are killed, though. "Oops" doesn't cut it in such situations.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Nope, we just kill em accidentally by the tens of thousands.

Source?

We are all engines of karma

[Michele 1]

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For what it's worth: [snip]

I realize every analogy is, by definition, deficient, but I think the comparisons to Isamic women not becoming Imams or going on the Hajj are reasonable.

If Haj is called for, and it's called for from both sexes, in the Q'ran, then preventing them from doing it prevents them from worshipping as their faith calls them to it.

Regarding the catholic/christian/Orthodox jewish perspective, it isn't a fair (nor accurate) comparison. In no case are the women being prevented from practicing religion; rather, a more accurate comparison would be preventing the girls from B'at Mitzveh, or preventing communion...simply because of sex.

Furthermore, it's apparently a government - not the religious leadership - that is doing the prevention. Granted, in SAE, the government is really not distinguishable from religious leadership, and they are indeed Wah'habists, which somewhat defeats the purpose of the point, but still, it's a point to be made.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

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I think you see it in Islam more cause that the recent concentration of news and media.

Nope - it's not because it's in the news recently. It's because I read; I know about Haj, Kaba and Mecca not from the nightly news but rather because I have done extensive reading throughout my life on various topics. Please don't think I've formed my opinion based on this one aspect of Islam...but it does cement it further.

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They are allowed to worship according to the article there not allowed or it is being considered for them not to be allowed to go to Kaba or perform there Haj. The Haj has many recommendation and not all Muslims perform the Haj in there life time at all.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Even if it's simply a recommendation and not a mandate (which, as I understand it, is true), to prevent someone from worshipping according to even the recommendations in their holy book simply because they are women reeks of mysogyny and male power play.

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The focus of the world right now is on Islam and a one sided view of it. I mean when we have killed over 30K people and have spent 8,000,000,000,000 dollars we need to believe something. It is easy to say they’re crazy and backwards and don’t do thing the right way which of course is our way.

I don't see all muslims as the enemy. I see those who are responsible for killing thousands as the enemy.

In this specific regard, however, yes, I do see it as "backward." It is, at the very least, an extraordinarily strong statement from the male leadership about their ability to deny a woman some basic rights and a basic freedom to follow their Holy Book.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kenneth21441 0]

No comment from here as I have posted many times the way that I feel towards these sand people. Having sent seven years in that >>it hole.

Equal justice to me is nuke them all and that will end our real problems with this out of date country.........

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[Andy9o8 0]

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Regarding the catholic/christian/Orthodox jewish perspective, it isn't a fair (nor accurate) comparison. In no case are the women being prevented from practicing religion;

I suspect that Orthodox Jewish, or Catholic, or Eastern orthodox women who yearn to serve in their religions' clergy would strongly disagree with you.

In any event, I said "I realize every analogy is, by definition, deficient," for a reason: because I don't want to get sucked into the usual SC process of nitpicking over the accuracy of an analogy, at the expense of the main premise.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Equal justice to me is nuke them all and that will end our real problems with this out of date country.........

How about we buy them all TVs, and show them BayWatch? They might actual love us in the end. It would also be alot cheaper.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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In any event, I said "I realize every analogy is, by definition, deficient," for a reason: because I don't want to get sucked into the usual SC process of nitpicking over the accuracy of an analogy, at the expense of the main premise.

Nice phrase. I'm going to remember that one.

We are all engines of karma

[kenneth21441 0]

because those zeelots when ban the broadcast or put big black markers over the women..

you cant change the man out of the desert.....

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[StreetScooby 5]

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ban the broadcast

But, we would own the broadcast.

We are all engines of karma

[Royd 0]

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Muslim women being prohibited from following their religion (i.e. not going to Mecca once in their lives) does indeed prevent them from practicing their religion to it's fullest extent (unless I've missed something. I'm no Islam scholar).

Why have the liberated women of this country remained strangely silient about the persecution in the Islamic world? I never saw much celebration over women in Afganastan being able to vote.

[Michele 1]

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Why have the liberated women of this country remained strangely silient about the persecution in the Islamic world? I never saw much celebration over women in Afganastan being able to vote.

I was very happy indeed that women in Afghanistan were finally able to vote. Rights being restored (or installed for the first time) are always a cause for celebration.

My issue, specifically in regards to this particular question, involves the right of women to worship according to their Holy Book's direction. In the SAE, women are no more than second class baby making citizens; because of that, and because the directive from the SAE government is considering preventing women from going on Haj - or at least preventing them from accomplishing Haj should they choose to go - is indeed a bother and a problem for me.

However...and here's where the magic balancing act comes in...it is my view that a woman should be able to choose her religion. If that religion indeed says that women are subservient to men, but the choice is made freely and without coercion, then she has the right to follow that religion and it's doctrine to it's fullest extent. If a woman is forced, however, to follow a particular religion, and by default forced to follow the particular doctrine, that to me is not about choice at all, and the worship is less than honest and real.

Finally, with the government of the SAE being Wah'habists, there is fundamentally no choice for a woman; she is "forced" to follow the religion, and because the government is a religious organization, her government can force her to do something. Choice, therefore, is obviated, and it's no longer about free will; rather, it's about doing something so you're not jailed, beat, stoned, or worse. To me, that is fundamentally wrong.

Sorry if this isn't clear; it's before 6 am and I'm only awake because I've got class in an hour...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[StreetScooby 5]

As I've said before, this quoted newspaper article really bothered me. The United States of America, and other western countires, are in a culture clash with Islam, IMO.

Based upon input to this thread, I've spent some time talking to other very knowledgeable people, and debating this issue with them.

Islam means "submission". The practice of Islam general includes the use of "Inshallah" (sp?), which means "If God wills it". This is a complete abdication of personal responsbility. Thus, moderate Muslims don't turn out their radicals.

Islam has not gone through their "Reformation". And we're all dealing with it.

We are all engines of karma

[Botellines 0]

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The United States of America, and other western countires, are in a culture clash with Islam, IMO.

And the United States of America and other western countries want you to believe that it is a culture clash and somehow unavoidable. It is always good to have an enemy so the government can manipulate the masses thru fear. Ever read 1984?

[StreetScooby 5]

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Ever read 1984?

Yes, I have.

I work in NYC. This culture clash is very real, and won't be going away soon, unless the US effectively accepts it as a culture clash and puts our best resources behind it on that basis.

We are all engines of karma