Anyone still think that the war wasn't planned pre-9/11?

[billvon 2,400]

>Fixed that for ya...

Best read up on your facts, there. We've killed a lot more innocent Iraqis than terrorists in Iraq.

[narcimund 0]

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Best read up on your facts, there. We've killed a lot more innocent Iraqis than terrorists in Iraq.

Not if you conveniently define "Terrorist" as "Anyone angry at the US, related to someone who's angry at the US, or having ties* to someone angry at the US."

By this definition (which seems behaviorally to be the one everyone is using) only terrorists (and the occasionally infant under 1 year old) has been killed or wounded.

* "having ties" is itself defined as "friends or acquaintances with, once had a friendship with, or once passed on the street or marketplace, shared an airplane or bus with, or attended the same school -- or has ties* with someone who did these things."

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[mnealtx 0]

SO nice to see you up the usual tricks you call everyone else out on while doing it yourself ... putting words in other's mouths, that is.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[narcimund 0]

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SO nice to see you up the usual tricks you call everyone else out on while doing it yourself ... putting words in other's mouths, that is.

Just for clarification, whose mouth did I put words in?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[falxori 0]

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Well, since the American press generally does a poor job of providing any balance in this debate, I guess I can't blame you for thinking that Israel is the poor, poor, freedom fighting victim of Palestinian terrorist abuse. There are other sources out there if you're interested.

yes, start with Al Jazeera, the Palestinian TV and maybe the Iranian news agency, i'm sure they'll match your "balanced" views better.

Israel is not poor, but it is the victim of ongoing terrorism. i'm pretty sure that most countries would be a lot less forgiving if their towns were bombarded endlessly like those near the border with gaza.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Well, since the American press generally does a poor job of providing any balance in this debate, I guess I can't blame you for thinking that Israel is the poor, poor, freedom fighting victim of Palestinian terrorist abuse. There are other sources out there if you're interested.

yes, start with Al Jazeera, the Palestinian TV and maybe the Iranian news agency, i'm sure they'll match your "balanced" views better.

Israel is not poor, but it is the victim of ongoing terrorism. i'm pretty sure that most countries would be a lot less forgiving if their towns were bombarded endlessly like those near the border with gaza.

Try the BBC. And for the record, how would you feel if Canada controlled all travel of our interstate highways, had armed check points every few miles, bulldozed our corn fields and our homes at will, killed your neighbors while they were sitting on the beach and your family because they "looked like they were threatening", and cut off all of our money flow because they didn't like Bush being president? I'll bet you might even be pissed off enough to throw a few rocks.
Israel "says" they want peace. But they continue to occupy land that is not theirs and while the Palestinians do lob their primative rockets into Israel, Israel basically gets a free pass from the world community when they attack with gunships and tanks. Within the last few weeks Israel has killed ten times as many Palestinians as the other way around.

[falxori 0]

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Try the BBC.

the BBC is pro palestinians and always have been. stories about the civilians armed with rocks (no matter that its not true) standing in front of a tank will always make a better news story.

now for your canada comarison...

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how would you feel if Canada controlled all travel of our interstate highways

Israel is not controling anything in Gaza. not the strip itself nor the border with egypt. and through this border "just for the record" most of the weapons smuggling is done and terrorist cross it into israel so they could then cross into israel through the relatively open israeli/egyptian border.

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bulldozed our corn fields and our homes at will

if you use your field or your back yard as cover to lunch rockets at canada, you have nothing to complain when it gets hit in response.

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killed your neighbors while they were sitting on the beach and your family because they "looked like they were threatening"

first of all its not clear what killed that family but thats not the issue because its sad no matter how it happened. the issue is that this is a state of war and as long as they fire from civilian areas and use civilians as cover, civilians will get hurt.
what do you suggest? that we accept the more than 400 rockets in the last month alone and do nothing?
and dont give me the old " they only fire back" or "they are fighting the occupation" because its not true and israel does not control anything in gaza.

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cut off all of our money flow because they didn't like Bush being president?

if bush was a terrorist who openly calls for the destruction of canada, does not recognize its right to exist and refuses to accept alread signed treaties between the US and canada, then why should canada help fund him?
and anyway just so you know, its not israel who is blocking funding from Hamas, its the whole world (beside Iran maybe) and like other countries Israel has transferred funds for civilian purposes in ways that will bypass Hamas. but i guess you didnt see it on BBC

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throw a few rocks

I don't know from which year the BBC story you've seen is, but try replacing rocks with explosives, AK47s and rockets.

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But they continue to occupy land that is not theirs

first of all, if we're talking about Gaza, israel is not occuping anything. as for the west bank, "theirs" and "not theirs" is a subjective thing. this land is mine just as much as it is any palestinian's and for every reason you can give i can give you two.
but it doesnt matter, we both have to compromise and divide the land, but you can't sit and talk with a gun to your head.

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while the Palestinians do lob their primative rockets into Israel

this rockets have wounded and killed enough people. would you like to leave in a town where any minute one of these "primitive" rockets can land on your house?
no? so why do you think its ok for me?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

I'll start by admitting that the "few rocks" statement was a deliberate understatement. I'm well aware of the rockets that the Palestinians launch and the fact that they use suicide bombers as a weapon. But I can't blame them for using what they have. We don't supply them with large sums of money, tanks, and planes like we do Israel. That said, I have a few questions.
Maybe you can help me out.
Is Israel occupying west bank territory that is outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders?
Does Israel control all or nearly all travel through the West Bank?
Is the wall that Israel is building in the West Bank only a "security barrier" as has been officially claimed or is it a means for a deliberate land grab?
Did or did not Israel withhold the millions of dollars per month that it collects for the Palestinian Authority?
While it's true that Israel pulled out of the Gaza settlements last fall, isn't it true that Israel still controls/patrols Gaza's airspace, coastline and the only border that it doesn't control is the one with Egypt?
Is it true that Israel is not interested in having the United Nations peacekeepers come to help with the conflict?
Who killed one of your most successful peacemakers, Rabin? Palestinians or Israelies?
Now I understand that the Palestinians need to recognize your right to exist but considering the degree to which they have been oppressed I can't say that I don't understand why they're as angry as they are.
If you're interested in where my viewpoint comes from its that of an American taxpayer who is completely baffled by the fact that this is 2006 and people on this earth are still physically fighting over religious and cultural differences. The differences are not biological or even economic. The parties involved share a long history of coexistence and are essentially the same people. I'm sure you'll disagree but I'm taking the third party, scientific approach. Secondly, Israel is our ally and we send you tremendous amounts of money. I expect our allies to take the high road when it comes to human rights and morality. And yes, I'm disgusted at our own, especially recent, failings in that regard and I speak out as vocally on that issue. Thirdly, we are dealing with our own terrorism issues and one of the reasons that we're being targeted is our blatantly one sided view of the Arab/Israel conflict. It is in our best interest as a country to help settle this issue fairly and quickly.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Try the BBC.

the BBC is pro palestinians and always have been.

I forgot to mention that I completely disagree with this statement. I don't see the the BBC as being "pro" anything one way or the other. A fair depiction of simply what happened is not bias.

[Amazon 7]

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Is Israel occupying west bank territory that is outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders?

Seems to me.. that since 1948.... and even before.. the Palistinians... and members of the Arab League had attacked Israel over and over. Every time they did they ended up losing MORE territory. Personally I do not blame the Israelis for holding on to that land to secure thier territory.... and as a bargaining position leading towards peace.. If the A rabs can not or will not make peace.. they have made their own bed....let them lie in it for perpetuity.

The Egyptians made peace.. and they got the Sinai back......

[falxori 0]

i'll try to answer your questions.

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But I can't blame them for using what they have.

I do. mainly because they target civilians and use their own civilians as cover. this is not a valid way of conducting war, its terrorism.

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Is Israel occupying west bank territory that is outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders?

you could say that although the international stand is that the future of these parts needs to be decided by negotiations. when the peace process was alive, palestinians got more and more self rule and at camp david they were about to get more than 90% of the west bank (note that i dont say "get back" because if anything, it was jordanian) and the rest would have been settled by swaping pieces of land in other places. shall i remind you how the camp david process ended?

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Does Israel control all or nearly all travel through the West Bank?

now? yes. getting from the west bank into israel is a matter of 2 minutes walk and these checkpoints have stopped more suicide bombers than you can imagine.
after the oslo accords, most of the major palestinian cities were under PA rule completely and even during the violent times "quiet" cities like jerico were almost free.
does it make life hard on the west bank? yes. but as long as terrorists ARE being stopped at checkpoints, you can't convice me that they are not needed.

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Is the wall that Israel is building in the West Bank only a "security barrier" as has been officially claimed or is it a means for a deliberate land grab?

its a security barrier and it has proven itself. i wish it was not needed. but sadly it is.

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Did or did not Israel withhold the millions of dollars per month that it collects for the Palestinian Authority?

yes. when they are at war with you, does it make sense to give them money? and money is being transferred for humanitary causes to non governmental organization (since hamas is the government)

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While it's true that Israel pulled out of the Gaza settlements last fall, isn't it true that Israel still controls/patrols Gaza's airspace, coastline and the only border that it doesn't control is the one with Egypt?

since the Gaza strip only borders with israel and egypt, i don't see your point.

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Is it true that Israel is not interested in having the United Nations peacekeepers come to help with the conflict?

looking at the history of "un peacekeepers", i think it will do more harm then good.
when they were posted in the PA, the were threatened by terror organizations and fled.
in lebanon (another place were israel is at gun point for no reason, the un peace keepers are often actually helping hezbollah.
if you were a swedish un peace keeper, would you risk more than you have to and actually stand up against these groups?

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Who killed one of your most successful peacemakers, Rabin? Palestinians or Israelies?

yeah, ok, and? the difference is that Rabin's killer is an extermist. hamas are extremists who are also the government. huge difference.

as for the rest of your post.
the fight here is not about religion (although it doesnt help). at the end, its about land (culture etc. is a secondary reason IMO). they think its their land and we think its our land.
who is right? both (and lets skip the who was here first debate)
most israelis have come to accept that the solution will be dividing this land between the two nations. if it can be by negotiation , cool, and if not israel is planning to pull out of the west bank like it did from gaza. i support that move, but what will happen if rockets will also fly out the west bank? will it be ok to blindly use artillary like they do?
if they want to fight they will find a reason to fight and we'll get pulled in again.

yes the US is an ally of israel and israel is one of the strongest ally of the US and its not only israel who benefits from it.
I think Israel IS taking the high road, i'm pretty sure that if san diego was bombarded day and night , Tijuana would be a flat desert (and the same goes for any other country).
believe it or not, israel is using its advanced weapons in order to surgically target the terrorists only (and i know its not 100% effective)

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we are dealing with our own terrorism issues and one of the reasons that we're being targeted is our blatantly one sided view of the Arab/Israel conflict.

by that logic, why were france/UK/spain/etc. were targeted? terrorism is a method that cannot be tolerated. if you accept it here in israel you will soon get it all over the world (and you already do)

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It is in our best interest as a country to help settle this issue fairly and quickly.

i think Israel's interest is even greater. but what can you do if you have no one to talk to on the other side and the PA government refuses to accept your existance?


and the BBC is biased (something like FOX, just to the opposite)
news is always biased. when the network used local palestinians as reporters that's what you get.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Is Israel occupying west bank territory that is outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders?

Seems to me.. that since 1948.... and even before.. the Palistinians... and members of the Arab League had attacked Israel over and over. Every time they did they ended up losing MORE territory. Personally I do not blame the Israelis for holding on to that land to secure thier territory.... and as a bargaining position leading towards peace.. If the A rabs can not or will not make peace.. they have made their own bed....let them lie in it for perpetuity.

The Egyptians made peace.. and they got the Sinai back......

Personally I think that Israel needs to quit building the wall, unless they want to build it on their recognized border, the green line. If they would pull back to their border then I would have no problem sending money and troops over there to help Israel protect its border. But my understanding is that Israel is not interested in peacekeeper help because they know that we can't provide them any official support outside of the green line without joining Israel in violating numerous UN resolutions. In short, they don't want our help because what they're doing violates international law. Speaking again as a US taxpayer, we need to start playing hardball with both sides or we need to take our checkbook and leave. This conflict is one of the reasons that we're in Iraq right now and I don't want my son to grow up so that he can be drafted into what is essentially a holy war (with a chewy imperialist center).

[Hawkins121 0]

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UH, last I saw, Israel was not vowing to destroy Palistine. Unlike the opposite.

Publically vow to do it? No. Actually doing it on a daily basis? Yes.

lmfao @ this statement.

The only reason israel still exists is they actively pursue those who are responsible for planning and carrying out attacks against their citizens.

Then again I guess they should just let people bomb and shoot them. After all, the whole dont fight back thing worked for so many others.............

Well, since the American press generally does a poor job of providing any balance in this debate, I guess I can't blame you for thinking that Israel is the poor, poor, freedom fighting victim of Palestinian terrorist abuse. There are other sources out there if you're interested.

Riiight... I've seen the sources that people post on this site... There is no debate here.
With what I do I'm fortunate enough to see info before the press gets destroys it. There wouldnt be a problem if there werent any attacks. Will the palestinians get ALL of the land that they want back? Hell no, but Israel isnt killing random people.

I really dont think you would have posted something like this if you knew what you were talking about.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Is Israel occupying west bank territory that is outside of Israel's internationally recognized borders?

you could say that although the international stand is that the future of these parts needs to be decided by negotiations.
Agreed. So we need to get on with it. The current US position on the issue is not one that's interested in starting a dialog towards peace and compromise.

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Does Israel control all or nearly all travel through the West Bank?

now? yes. getting from the west bank into israel is a matter of 2 minutes walk and these checkpoints have stopped more suicide bombers than you can imagine.
after the oslo accords, most of the major palestinian cities were under PA rule completely and even during the violent times "quiet" cities like jerico were almost free.
does it make life hard on the west bank? yes. but as long as terrorists ARE being stopped at checkpoints, you can't convice me that they are not needed.

I don't have a problem with the check points near Jerusalem (which by my understanding is supposed to be an international city). The maps I've seen show check points all the way to the dead sea.

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Is the wall that Israel is building in the West Bank only a "security barrier" as has been officially claimed or is it a means for a deliberate land grab?

its a security barrier and it has proven itself. i wish it was not needed. but sadly it is.

If it's for security of Israel then why does this security fence have to extend past Jenin, and why does it look like it will probably end up cutting off almost half of the West Bank? It looks like a land grab to us outsiders.

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Did or did not Israel withhold the millions of dollars per month that it collects for the Palestinian Authority?

yes. when they are at war with you, does it make sense to give them money? and money is being transferred for humanitary causes to non governmental organization (since hamas is the government)
It was their money and like it or not, Hamas was democratically elected. I don't like my president either but that doesn't mean that he's not legally my president. The US really blew it on this one as far as I'm concerned. We should have recognized Hamas as the elected leadership and treated them with the respect that they were/are due. We didn't even wait for the polls to close before we told them that we wouldn't deal with them. That was wrong, especially since we're supposedly "spreading democracy" through the middle east. By taking the stance that we have and by cutting off their money in an effort to have Hamas kicked out we have shown how much we value the democratic process. It's embarrassing.

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While it's true that Israel pulled out of the Gaza settlements last fall, isn't it true that Israel still controls/patrols Gaza's airspace, coastline and the only border that it doesn't control is the one with Egypt?

since the Gaza strip only borders with israel and egypt, i don't see your point.

Military gunships flying/firing overhead constantly as well as ships lobbing shells into the beach comes to mind

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Is it true that Israel is not interested in having the United Nations peacekeepers come to help with the conflict?

looking at the history of "un peacekeepers", i think it will do more harm then good.
when they were posted in the PA, the were threatened by terror organizations and fled.
in lebanon (another place were israel is at gun point for no reason, the un peace keepers are often actually helping hezbollah.
if you were a swedish un peace keeper, would you risk more than you have to and actually stand up against these groups?

I'm thinking more along the scale of what we have dedicated in Iraq. I think this conflict warrants it, even though we (now) don't have the manpower to do it.

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Who killed one of your most successful peacemakers, Rabin? Palestinians or Israelies?

yeah, ok, and? the difference is that Rabin's killer is an extermist. hamas are extremists who are also the government. huge difference.

Seems to me that there are quite a few extremists in the Israeli government as well. When Sharon is considered too "moderate", that says something.

as for the rest of your post.
the fight here is not about religion (although it doesnt help). at the end, its about land (culture etc. is a secondary reason IMO). they think its their land and we think its our land.
who is right? both (and lets skip the who was here first debate)
most israelis have come to accept that the solution will be dividing this land between the two nations. if it can be by negotiation , cool, and if not israel is planning to pull out of the west bank like it did from gaza.
Sounds good to me too.

i support that move, but what will happen if rockets will also fly out the west bank? will it be ok to blindly use artillary like they do?
if they want to fight they will find a reason to fight and we'll get pulled in again.
If that happened then I'd have no problem sending our troops and military hardware over to help keep the peace.

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we are dealing with our own terrorism issues and one of the reasons that we're being targeted is our blatantly one sided view of the Arab/Israel conflict.

by that logic, why were france/UK/spain/etc. were targeted? terrorism is a method that cannot be tolerated. if you accept it here in israel you will soon get it all over the world (and you already do)

Thanks for being one of the few who recognizes that terrorism is a "method". But again, when you feel like you're being oppressed you fight back with any method you have at your disposal. Our own George Washington was one of our most highly regarded terrorists.

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It is in our best interest as a country to help settle this issue fairly and quickly.

i think Israel's interest is even greater. but what can you do if you have no one to talk to on the other side and the PA government refuses to accept your existance?

Ask for and accept help?


and the BBC is biased (something like FOX, just to the opposite)
news is always biased. when the network used local palestinians as reporters that's what you get.

O

[idrankwhat 0]

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Riiight... I've seen the sources that people post on this site... There is no debate here.
With what I do I'm fortunate enough to see info before the press gets destroys it. There wouldnt be a problem if there werent any attacks. Will the palestinians get ALL of the land that they want back? Hell no, but Israel isnt killing random people.

A lot of dead Palestinian civilians, an American protester as well as a few Egyptians might just disagree with you.

[falxori 0]

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is not one that's interested in starting a dialog

actually it is. but dialog with who? Hamas does not want to talk (not that pretending to talk while still carrying out terror attacks like Arafat did is any better)

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I don't have a problem with the check points near Jerusalem (which by my understanding is supposed to be an international city). The maps I've seen show check points all the way to the dead sea.

supposed to? why?
and there are checkpoints where needed. and as long as terrorist try to blow themselves up in our cities, there will be.

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If it's for security of Israel then why does this security fence have to extend past Jenin, and why does it look like it will probably end up cutting off almost half of the West Bank? It looks like a land grab to us outsiders.

maybe because Jenin is one of the major terrorists' nests in the west bank?
i can't control what it looks like to you. and you know what? if the PA insists not to talk and keep shooting then let it be the border until they are willing to talk.

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It was their money and like it or not, Hamas was democratically elected.

so was Hitler. the fact that they were democratically elected doesn't make them ok. it makes the people who chose them wrong, but that's their problem.

if you want to go into details, the tax money israel is collecting for the PA is a part of the agreements already signed with the PA. as long as Hamas refuses to accept these agreements they can't demand anything that was agreed upon there.
a basic concept of democracy is that a new government is committed to signed treaties. otherwise, what's the point is signing them?

Hamas may be accepted as their leaders as soon as they renounce terrorism. Arafat did it (at least publicly, for awhile) and was accepted.

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Military gunships flying/firing overhead constantly as well as ships lobbing shells into the beach comes to mind

if you still think israel is just shooting into gaza for fun and at anything moving, nothing i'll say will make a difference.
israel is trying to hit those who try to hit it, and although civilians get hurt, they have only the terrorist groups to blame.
and we already talked about the beach incident and that its very likely that it was not israeli fire at all.

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I'm thinking more along the scale of what we have dedicated in Iraq. I think this conflict warrants it, even though we (now) don't have the manpower to do it.

if i thought for one second that UN peace keepers will be effective in stoping terrorists, i'd agree.
will they confront terrorists in gaza and stop them from lunching rockets? will they check them at checkpoints risking getting blown up? i'm not sure i would if it wasnt in order to save my family and friends.

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Seems to me that there are quite a few extremists in the Israeli government as well. When Sharon is considered too "moderate", that says something.

not the type of extremists like the one who shot Rabin. and anyway they do not control the government. Hamas IS the government.

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If that happened then I'd have no problem sending our troops and military hardware over to help keep the peace.

but it IS happening in gaza now. even arafat (not to mention Hamas) did not want to settle for the west bank. they want it all.

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Our own George Washington was one of our most highly regarded terrorists.

i'm realistic. one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. some of israel's founding fathers were also considered terrorists by the brits.
the difference is that they knew when to change. just so you know, the current PA president Abbas was one of the bloodiest terrorists of the PLO, but he's realized there is a good chance for talking rather than shooting and he is accepted as a moderate leader now. if Hamas commit to stopping terrorism and start talking, i have no problem talking to them.
but i refuse to talk at gun point, israel has more guns, more powerful than the ones being used now.

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Ask for and accept help?

sure, if you can help make hamas accept the signed treaties, stop shooting and start talking, be my guest.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

Unfortunately I can't get to all of this today but...

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I don't have a problem with the check points near Jerusalem (which by my understanding is supposed to be an international city). The maps I've seen show check points all the way to the dead sea.

supposed to? why?
Because that is how modern day Israel was created when its boundaries were drawn post WWII I assume that Jerusalem was supposed to be and international city because of it's religious significance to all religions based on Abraham. I'll have to check that one.
and there are checkpoints where needed. and as long as terrorist try to blow themselves up in our cities, there will be.

It's the "our cities" part that I disagree with.

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If it's for security of Israel then why does this security fence have to extend past Jenin, and why does it look like it will probably end up cutting off almost half of the West Bank? It looks like a land grab to us outsiders.

maybe because Jenin is one of the major terrorists' nests in the west bank?
So if it's their "terrorist nest" why is Israel putting the wall on the eastern instead of the western side of Jenin?


i can't control what it looks like to you. and you know what? if the PA insists not to talk and keep shooting then let it be the border until they are willing to talk.

sorry, but I have to go for now but it's interesting to talk to you

[falxori 0]

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Because that is how modern day Israel was created when its boundaries were drawn post WWII

that was part of the plan of post wwII. and Israel (or the leaders of the jewish community then) accepted it. the arabs did not. according to your suggestion, i can refuse to accept a plan, start a war, if i win, cool. but if i lose i can ask to go back to that plan.

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It's the "our cities" part that I disagree with

well i'm pretty sure most of the suicide bombers blew themselves up in israeli towns (within the 67 borders), unless you don't consider Tel-Aviv, Netanya, Hadera, etc to be Israeli towns (and more than once arab israelis got hit too, but they are also israelis)

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So if it's their "terrorist nest" why is Israel putting the wall on the eastern instead of the western side of Jenin?

hmmm thats simply not true.
i looked at some maps (in pro palestinians sites actually) and most of the security fence
(especially in the northern part, near Jenin) is pretty much on the 1967 border line (the green line)
get your facts straight first

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sorry, but I have to go for now but it's interesting to talk to you

no problem, come again...

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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Because that is how modern day Israel was created when its boundaries were drawn post WWII

that was part of the plan of post wwII. and Israel (or the leaders of the jewish community then) accepted it. the arabs did not. according to your suggestion, i can refuse to accept a plan, start a war, if i win, cool. but if i lose i can ask to go back to that plan.

My understanding is that the green line is still the official border according to the international community. Is that right? Is Israel officially claiming otherwise?

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It's the "our cities" part that I disagree with

well i'm pretty sure most of the suicide bombers blew themselves up in israeli towns (within the 67 borders), unless you don't consider Tel-Aviv, Netanya, Hadera, etc to be Israeli towns (and more than once arab israelis got hit too, but they are also israelis)

I was referring more to Ariel, Maale Abdumim, Gutz Etzion to name the big ones

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So if it's their "terrorist nest" why is Israel putting the wall on the eastern instead of the western side of Jenin?

hmmm thats simply not true.
i looked at some maps (in pro palestinians sites actually) and most of the security fence
(especially in the northern part, near Jenin) is pretty much on the 1967 border line (the green line)
get your facts straight first

Hmm...got me there. I was looking at the 2003 route, not the 2005 revised route. When the wall was being started the proposed route was running south from Jenin. It was easy to see the possibility of it wandering towards Ariel. That would have been a sizeable grab.

[idrankwhat 0]

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as long as Hamas refuses to accept these agreements they can't demand anything that was agreed upon there.
a basic concept of democracy is that a new government is committed to signed treaties. otherwise, what's the point is signing them?

I agree here. But everyone prejudged Hamas' response to being elected. They assumed that nothing would change when they realized that they were leaders in a world community. By reacting the way we did, we did nothing but reinforce their resolve. I believe that in conflict resolution that you treat all parties as equals first and then start the negotiations. You don't chain and starve a wild dog if you want to tame them.

Hamas may be accepted as their leaders as soon as they renounce terrorism. Arafat did it (at least publicly, for awhile) and was accepted.
And after a while he was kept under house arrest with a tank outside his door until he died

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Military gunships flying/firing overhead constantly as well as ships lobbing shells into the beach comes to mind

if you still think israel is just shooting into gaza for fun and at anything moving, nothing i'll say will make a difference.
israel is trying to hit those who try to hit it, and although civilians get hurt, they have only the terrorist groups to blame.
and we already talked about the beach incident and that its very likely that it was not israeli fire at all.
I'll be interested to see what happens with the beach incident but I don't expect much more than what's happened in the past, which is just for the story to fade away. As for the "targeted" attacks, I don't know what the current status is on the practice and maybe you can clear it up for me, but I never considered bulldozing the homes of family members of militants, sometimes with the family members still in them, as being simply collateral damage to a retaliation strike.

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I'm thinking more along the scale of what we have dedicated in Iraq. I think this conflict warrants it, even though we (now) don't have the manpower to do it.

if i thought for one second that UN peace keepers will be effective in stoping terrorists, i'd agree.
will they confront terrorists in gaza and stop them from lunching rockets? will they check them at checkpoints risking getting blown up? i'm not sure i would if it wasnt in order to save my family and friends.
Well, we are actually doing that very thing right now in Iraq

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even arafat (not to mention Hamas) did not want to settle for the west bank. they want it all.
Well, they can't have it all and they need to understand that

***Our own George Washington was one of our most highly regarded terrorists.

i'm realistic. one's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. some of israel's founding fathers were also considered terrorists by the brits.
the difference is that they knew when to change. just so you know, the current PA president Abbas was one of the bloodiest terrorists of the PLO, but he's realized there is a good chance for talking rather than shooting and he is accepted as a moderate leader now.
Sounds exactly like Sharon. It's too bad he's not around to finish what he started

if Hamas commit to stopping terrorism and start talking, i have no problem talking to them.
but i refuse to talk at gun point,
Realistically, both are pointing guns at each other. Seems to me that "cease fire" was a poor term to choose.
israel has more guns, more powerful than the ones being used now.
We know, as does everyone else

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Ask for and accept help?

sure, if you can help make hamas accept the signed treaties, stop shooting and start talking, be my guest.
I think that's a great idea. Now if we can just get our State dept. to try some actual diplomacy instead of this shotgun diplomacy crap. It obviously doesn't work.

[Hawkins121 0]

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Riiight... I've seen the sources that people post on this site... There is no debate here.
With what I do I'm fortunate enough to see info before the press gets destroys it. There wouldnt be a problem if there werent any attacks. Will the palestinians get ALL of the land that they want back? Hell no, but Israel isnt killing random people.

A lot of dead Palestinian civilians, an American protester as well as a few Egyptians might just disagree with you.

boo fucking hoo

Israel is sending the right message even with the colateral damage.

[falxori 0]

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My understanding is that the green line is still the official border according to the international community. Is that right? Is Israel officially claiming otherwise?

there is no "official border". Israel has controlled the west bank since 1967 (beside parts given to the PA during the peace talks) but has never annexed it. the final border should and will be determined by peace talks.

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I was referring more to Ariel, Maale Abdumim, Gutz Etzion to name the big ones

first of all, who says they have no right to exist? second of all, if we were talking about suicide bombers, most of them blew up in towns within the 67 border. and just so you know, gush etzion, was actually supposed to be a part of israel according to the plans but was taken by jordan during the 1948 war.

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Hmm...got me there. I was looking at the 2003 route

there are many suggested routes, some by the military who considered the easier way to defend israel and some that are harder to implement but cause less damage to the population, and some parts are even debated by the israeli supreme court.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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I agree here. But everyone prejudged Hamas' response to being elected. They assumed that nothing would change when they realized that they were leaders in a world community

they werent prejudged, they were judged based on their actions and agenda. they didnt even take the basic step of accepting signed treaties and recognize israel's right to exist. when they do, they will be a hell lot acceptable to talk to

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And after a while he was kept under house arrest with a tank outside his door until he died

exactly, when he resorted back to his old ways of terror and violence (not that he has ever really left them)

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bulldozing the homes of family members of militants, sometimes with the family members still in them

buldozing the home of a suicide bomber is one of the very few things you can do in order to make a suicide bomber rethink his actions. and as for buldozing house with innocent people inside, thats simply not true.

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Well, we are actually doing that very thing right now in Iraq

that's the US, not the UN and the US has an interest in Iraq that goes beyond the well being of the poor average Iraqi.
and honestly, i don't think an American soldier would or should risk his life here.

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Well, they can't have it all and they need to understand that

but what happens if they don't? you keep saying peace talks is the way and I agree. but what do you do if you have no one to talk to?

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Sounds exactly like Sharon. It's too bad he's not around to finish what he started

i don't exactly like the comparison, but for the sake of arguement, it only proves that people can change and that they are judged by their actions. Abbas has a long way in front of him, i hope he choses to take that road. the road that Araffat chose not to take.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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A lot of dead Palestinian civilians, an American protester as well as a few Egyptians might just disagree with you.

boo fucking hoo

Israel is sending the right message even with the colateral damage.

[idrankwhat 0]

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there is no "official border". Israel has controlled the west bank since 1967 (beside parts given to the PA during the peace talks) but has never annexed it. the final border should and will be determined by peace talks.

I guess that's where the issue is. My understanding is that the UN never recognized that the border disappeared, starting with resolution 242 and continuing with numerous subsequent resolutions pretaining to the occupation and treatment of the Palestinians.

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I was referring more to Ariel, Maale Abdumim, Gutz Etzion to name the big ones

first of all, who says they have no right to exist? second of all, if we were talking about suicide bombers, most of them blew up in towns within the 67 border. and just so you know, gush etzion, was actually supposed to be a part of israel according to the plans but was taken by jordan during the 1948 war.

But those cities are not considered by the international community as part of Israel. Maybe they will be when it's settled but they are significant Israeli settlements residing in occupied Palestinian territory. But I guess arguing that point is an exercise in futility if there's no agreement as to where the green line went.