Why dont we all believe????

[br0k3n 0]

Hey MC, here’s an idea that should help us clear this up once and for all, as you and Paj seem to be in touch with almighty one, perhaps you could get him to appear before me, I’ll get my photo taken with him and that should be it…

Just a thought, just putting the idea out there…. What do you think????

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

The bible contains much history.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[br0k3n 0]

Any joy with finding that evidence??? Also did you get in touch with the almighty one as nobody has appeared before me yet, is god busy?

John 14:12 is quite clear:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

You have asked for something in his name. You have even asked him to do something that he is clearly able to do. The Bible says that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people, so it should be no problem for him to appear to you or me.

I'll await you response....

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

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Well done, exactly… because if you had evidence then there would be no need for faith

"Evidence" does not equal "proof." Faith is merely confidence in something or someone. Evidence is the basis for this confidence (faith); it lends support to one's faith.

The evidence that I have studied supports my faith. If I didn't have evidence, I couldn't believe.

But also, one can be presented with "evidence" and choose not to believe the evidence: the evidence may not be convincing enough for this person, OR the person may not be able to look at the evidence objectively because his mind is already made up and has no desire to believe otherwise. Both ingredients (volitional and logical) have to be present in order for a person to "believe."

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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Hey MC, here’s an idea that should help us clear this up once and for all, as you and Paj seem to be in touch with almighty one, perhaps you could get him to appear before me, I’ll get my photo taken with him and that should be it…

Just a thought, just putting the idea out there…. What do you think????

Some people met the Son of God face to face, but still didn't believe. In O.T. times, God showed himself to the nation of Israel in all sorts of miraculous ways, but many of them eventually disregarded all that, even tho' they had benefitted materially/physically from those miracles. In Luke 16, Jesus told a parable, the moral of which was this: "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead." Both ingredients are needed: the volitional AND the mental.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[br0k3n 0]

that doesn't answer the question......

anyway

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even those' they had benefitted materially/physically from those miracles.

on the subject of miracles… Why didn't Jesus perform any real miracles. He could have, for example, eliminated smallpox and a host of other diseases that science is busy eliminating today. He could have made his message so clear, and the proof of his godliness so obvious, that all six billion people on the planet would have aligned with him rather than fragmenting into dozens of bizarre and often warring factions. To any rational person, these problems make it painfully obvious that Jesus was a normal human being.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

You've formed an image of God in your mind as YOU think He should be. He doesn't conform to man's notions; we have to conform to Him.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[billvon 2,434]

> You've formed an image of God in your mind as YOU think He should be.

As you have. And your image is every bit as valid as his.

>He doesn't conform to man's notions; we have to conform to Him.

Well, no we don't. Haven't seen anyone blown to bits by the hand of God or turned into a pillar of salt lately. Some people choose to conform to religion X, some choose to conform to religion Y and that's fine (at least, as long as conforming doesn't mean killing infidels or burning witches.) But clearly if one differs from a given interpretation of God, they are not forced to conform to that interpretation (which is a good thing!)

[br0k3n 0]

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You've formed an image of God in your mind as YOU think He should be. He doesn't conform to man's notions; we have to conform to Him.

No I have not, I asked a perfectly legitimate question, however instead of looking at the evidence and questioning it, in your mind, you are coming up with a thousand rationalizations to explain why Jesus did not perform any real miracles.

This is part of what being a Christian is, its being able to be an expert at rationalization, you have to be because god constantly lets us down.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Mockingbird 0]

Yes, I think you have. You think that He should think this way, or do this thing, or fix everything that's wrong, or appear to you in person. That is a false notion of who God is and how He relates to mankind.

What evidence have you presented me with that I am supposed to consider? I must have missed that.

That God constantly lets me down is a false premise.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

This is just more of your postmodern relativism... "There IS no absolute truth... Whatever works for you is valid for YOU... Whatever he believes in is valid for HIM... We're not judges of what is valid... Just.. whatever works is valid." Not only does this not require anyone to really think in order to come to the truth (since there is none that is absolute), it's also just erroneous.

Are you admitting that burning witches and killing infidels is morally wrong? Would you call that an absolute truth?

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[br0k3n 0]

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Yes, I think you have. You think that He should think this way, or do this thing, or fix everything that's wrong, or appear to you in person. That is a false notion of who God is and how He relates to mankind.

What evidence have you presented me with that I am supposed to consider? I must have missed that.

That God constantly lets me down is a false premise.

is this, or is this not your god....

"Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!"

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Nightingale 0]

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Are you admitting that burning witches and killing infidels is morally wrong? Would you call that an absolute truth?

Doesn't the KJV say something about killing witches? Oh... wait a second. That's a mistranslation, isn't it? The English translation of the Tanakh by a Rabbinical committee of translators renders Ex 22:17 as "Do not tolerate a sorceress." The commentary in the British version notes that this interpretation of the passage calls for giving no credence to claims to witchcraft, since such claims are delusional. Somehow, I'd give more credence to a translation from Hebrew to English that was created by a bunch of Rabbinical scholars, whose business it is to know hebrew, rather than King James' translator, whose main concern had to be keeping the king happy rather than providing an accurate translation of the hebrew text.


edited for typo

[billvon 2,434]

>This is just more of your postmodern relativism... "There IS no
>absolute truth...

Uh, no. But there is also more than one thing that is true. There is more than one way to do things.

Case in point - turning in skydiving. I start off teaching people to turn with their arms, because most people have more control over their arms than their legs. Some people have happy feet, and you _have_ to work on their legs. Some can't turn without dropping a knee; some can't turn without looking in the direction they are going.

So when I graduate people, they're not the same when it comes to turning. One guy might turn with his arms and leave his legs stationary. One guy might use both. One guy might use just his legs and keep his arms pretty still. One guy might have to turn his head in the direction he's going; one might be able to look at his partner the whole time.

Which one is right?

Applying this to religion -

There are many ways to come to an understanding with God. Some people believe in someone named Allah; some believe in someone named Jesus. Some believe in three gods; some in one god that has three parts, some in one god.

To move a little closer to home, the various sects of christianity vary greatly in the details. The divinity of Mary, the power of the Pope, the details of what the Eucharist is, the wording of prayers, how important Joseph Smith was.

Which one is right?

Do not confuse questions of morality with the issue of how you _get_ to those questions of morality. Two people with completely different backgrounds can be just as moral (or just as evil.) It is what they do, not what they believe, who determines who and what they are.

>Are you admitting that burning witches and killing infidels is morally
>wrong? Would you call that an absolute truth?

Yes, those things are morally wrong.

Wait - are you thinking that there are TWO things that are wrong? Might it therefore follow that more than one thing might be right?

[Mockingbird 0]

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is this, or is this not your god....

"Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!"

No, this isn't the God I worship.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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Somehow, I'd give more credence to a translation from Hebrew to English that was created by a bunch of Rabbinical scholars, whose business it is to know hebrew, rather than King James' translator, whose main concern had to be keepign the king happy rather than providing an accurate translation of the hebrew text.

I would, too. IOW, I agree with you.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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Case in point - turning in skydiving... Which one is right?

Speaking only generally, if they all result in turning at will, any of them are correct.

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Applying this to religion - There are many ways to come to an understanding with God. Some people believe in someone named Allah; some believe in someone named Jesus. Some believe in three gods; some in one god that has three parts, some in one god.

God isn't "one size fits all." Not every god is God.

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>Are you admitting that burning witches and killing infidels is morally
>wrong? Would you call that an absolute truth?

Yes, those things are morally wrong.

I asked that question to find out if you would actually make a moral judgement and admit that those things are morally wrong. I thought your relativism might allow for murder in some cases. If you maintain some standards that are absolute (such as murder), where did those standards come from?

[edited to fix poor markup.]

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Zenister 0]

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Case in point - turning in skydiving... Which one is right?

Speaking only generally, if they all result in turning at will, any of them are correct.

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Applying this to religion - There are many ways to come to an understanding with God. Some people believe in someone named Allah; some believe in someone named Jesus. Some believe in three gods; some in one god that has three parts, some in one god.

God isn't "one size fits all." Not every god is God.

Prove it!

show one example where another's religion DID NOT support and comfort them just as well as yours does you when they put their full belief into it....

Xtains often using "dying for their belief" as 'evidence' of their God's "Truth" but the FACTs are heathens have and continue to die JUST AS WELL (if not better) for their beliefs...

and the lions arent picky....

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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The bible contains much history.

no the bible REFERENCES much History in the same manner Private Ryan references the history of WWII, it contains very little additions to history however it does create new Myth and like the best does so on the foundations of earlier Myth. Just as the art of language developed, the art of storytelling (through the written word) did as well.

Shakespeare (and every other writer since) owes much to the writers (and editors) of the biblical text, but that doesnt make either of them any more factual.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,434]

>God isn't "one size fits all." Not every god is God.

If that's true, then no god is God - because everyone's image of him differs slightly, even within a given religion. I am sure that if you had a friend who believed very much like you do, but had a minor difference in opinion on how old God was (or something along those lines) you would not claim that they did not believe in the One True God. I just have a somewhat wider range of what constitutes a real God than you do.



>I asked that question to find out if you would actually make a moral
> judgement and admit that those things are morally wrong. I thought
> your relativism might allow for murder in some cases.

Killing, yes. Murder, no.

>If you maintain some standards that are absolute (such as murder),
>where did those standards come from?

From my upbringing initially, combined later with conscious decisions about right and wrong. Many of those moral standards were influenced by my early experiences in the catholic church.

[pirana 0]

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>I believe that religion is deeply imbedded within human nature.
>It's why every culture from around the world throughout history has
>gods and religion.

I think that's very true; in a way we are 'wired' to believe, and to be able to have the sort of mystical experiences that saints, mystics, shamans etc have. There's a good overview of this in the book "Why God won't go away" - it goes over some of that wiring and how/why it evolved.

>I find very little wrong with religion. Too many people think the way I
> USED to think - that religion is a crutch. In the past decade I have
> concluded that it is not only a coping mechanism for people (and a
> better one than drugs or alcohol), but it is also a roadmap.

Agreed. Its value lies in what it does for you and what you make of it - and for some people it does a _lot_ of good. Comparisons to the tooth fairy and Santa Claus miss the mark; the tooth fairy doesn't help people save themselves from a lifetime of addiction or debauchery. Often, religion does.

Absolutely agree. It's more like The Great Pumpkin.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Oh, and why would anyone need to be saved from a lifetime of debauchery?

Reminds me of the scene in The Holy Grail where the good Knight is being rescued by his comrades from the castle full of virgins between the ages of 17 and 19.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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[pirana 0]

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IMO, god is learned, not wired.

Did you come to that opinion after reading the research in the field or does it just feel right to you?

It's really too bad English doesn't have different words for those two types of opinions.

It's both, or more accurately, all three. There are genetic factors that influence a person'e predisposition for religious beliefs, and there is the learning drilled into us as children. Then there is the cerebral free will we all possess to constantly review and either keep or discard what we believe to be true.

The 3 work together to make us who we are: genes, environment, and brain (free will).

don b - dispensing wisdom wherever the truth, and things that come in 3's, are not suppressed.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Alias 0]

Here is an interesting perspective.

I believed in GOD/SON/HOLY SPIRIT my whole life. Then I went agnostic, then didn't care at all.

Now, I have two sons going to a Christian school. We have one of the very best public school systems in the country...yet we still pay to send them to private Christian school. Why? Because they teach kindness and charity.

I do not believe the bible to be fact in that there was walking on water, water turned to wine etc. But the big issue of my non belief is the risen from the dead and holy spirit part, again, I do not believe. Which really means I cannot consider myself a "Christian" under they're definition.

But I do! Crazy isn't it? I really see a difference in people at this school. More polite, more caring, more patience and much more giving then what I've seen in our public school system in this affluent area. A hodge podge of takers and whiners. A huge group of "me me me'ers"

I send my children to a Christian school because they are taught to not judge, not lash out, not direct anger at others. They are taught to give to charity, donate their time to help others, the concept of giving and sharing. These are basic Christian principles. And are taught as the basics at this school. And re-enforced in our home.

Yes, it does creep me out when I hear him recite a psalm and end it with ...."Matthew 14" or whatever. But I can tell you this. I have Christian principles and guess what? So do most of us here in the states, whether we "believe" in God or not.

So it is the word of Christ that has lasted this long. It is the lessons and parables that are shared in the bible that teaches our youth that it really IS better to give then receive etc. I've seen it with my open eyes.

So, do you really have to "believe" in God to live by and teach what Jesus shared? No. Do you have to believe in the Holy Spirit to be a Christian? I guess it all depends on who you ask....I say no.....some would say that I actually see Jesus as a prophet...meaning I am a Jew.....Whatever. I know that most Christians will go out of their way to help or assist. Most are worried for others before themselves. Call me what you want - I respect the Christian philosophy and pass it to my sons......whether I "believe" in God .....or not

It's all good to me.

Carpe Diem

[Shotgun 1]

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I send my children to a Christian school because they are taught to not judge, not lash out, not direct anger at others. They are taught to give to charity, donate their time to help others, the concept of giving and sharing. These are basic Christian principles. And are taught as the basics at this school. And re-enforced in our home.

Hmm, too bad that these same ideas can't be taught without the use of a myth. To me, they seem pretty simple, fundamental to society 'working'. I don't need to believe some BS story to think that these are good things to do; and I honestly can't understand why anyone else would need to either.