RMURRAY 1 #101 April 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteI saw enough smokers in college and beyond to believe that the correlation between poverty and smoking isn't that great. My life experience tells me that there's a HUGE correlation in the US & Canada between socio-economic status and/or education and smoking. Yes, when I was in college (in the late 70's) a hell of a lot of college students smoked. But for that group, it was more of a micro stage-of-life thing; most of them gave it up by their mid-20's. But nowadays virtually nobody I know or come into contact with, between the ages of 25 and 60, who has a BA/BS degree or higher & works in a white-collar environment, smokes. I don't think I'm alone in that experience. agreed. I just went through our phone list. I work in an engineering design office. For 38 graduate engineers...5 of 38 smoke. That is 13%. I would have guessed less than 10%. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #102 April 27, 2006 Quoteagreed. I just went through our phone list. I work in an engineering design office. For 38 graduate engineers...5 of 38 smoke. That is 13%. I would have guessed less than 10%. Yeah, what he said. Kelp: screw statistics. I know what I've seen with my own eyes the better part of my adult life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #103 April 28, 2006 Quote Kelp: screw statistics. I know what I've seen with my own eyes the better part of my adult life. if you like. My eyes disagree. And I'm in California. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #104 April 28, 2006 QuoteQuote The point I was making is that you are diminishing smoking to just a bad habit. It's not just a bad habit, like chewing tobacco, where only the fool sucking on it is physically affected. Considerate smokers have a negliable influence on your health. Hell, it was hard enough to show the effects of substantial second hand smoke - which tells you how little harm you can claim walking outdoors. So yeah, it's a vice that hurts the user - it diminishes their cardio vascular performance, increases arterial blockage, and eventually is the leading cause of death for a third of the users. LA air used to be described as equilivent to pack a day smoking. And that wasn't coming from the smokers. If non smokers lungs are so important, then make everyone buy SULEV vehicles. Destroy all cars from the 80s and beyond. QuoteConsiderate smokers W/o sarcasm, this is an oxymoron. QuoteConsiderate smokers have a negliable influence on your health. Hell, it was hard enough to show the effects of substantial second hand smoke - which tells you how little harm you can claim walking outdoors. Wrongo.... it is very difficult to test for a sole independant variable of second-hand smoke and its affect on health. So science and medicine has to use common sense. Just as most people convicted of murders are done so by way of circumstantial evidence and no hard evidence. There comes a point to where we need to realize that smoke is poison, just like booze. QuoteSo yeah, it's a vice that hurts the user - it diminishes their cardio vascular performance, increases arterial blockage, and eventually is the leading cause of death for a third of the users. And it's hard to believe that 2nd hand kills????? QuoteLA air used to be described as equilivent to pack a day smoking. And that wasn't coming from the smokers. If non smokers lungs are so important, then make everyone buy SULEV vehicles. Destroy all cars from the 80s and beyond. Again, and Clinton was a POS, therefore Bush can;t be as bad as they say. HUUUUUUUH????? OK, cars polute, that's the cost of driving and having a society the way we do. Smoking kills 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc..., that's the cost we pay for allowing the drug addiction of 25% of the population to affect virtually all of the population. Can you see how driving is essential, but smoking is not? IF this wasn't a Fascist country where corps write the laws, we would have killed smoking a long time ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #105 April 28, 2006 QuoteIf your argument is that smoking increases health care costs for everyone, then you have to argue that ALL unhealthy activity should be banned. How about fast food? What about alcohol? healthy? Nope. Increase health care costs? Most likely. So unless you are willing to ban ALL unhealthy activity, stop singling out smokers. Heck, while we're at it, let's just require everyone to run 5 miles a day. Also, several studies have indicated that smoking LOWERS overall health care costs. Long term care for elderly, sickly people is very expensive, and smokers die younger, requiring lower care costs overall. I won't smoke near non-smokers, children or in public buildings. I in no way harm the health of any non-smoker. I hope to quit soon, but it is very difficult. So, for now, get of my friggin back! Zipp0 Good attitude and good luck quitting. If we ban smoking, period, then skydiving is next because it's dangerous. I would hate to think that smoking would ever be banned, but it should be confined to the intimacy of a person's property. Even in a car, windows must be up. It needs to be a leper activity, but not banned like pot and other drugs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #106 April 28, 2006 QuoteQuote You can smell it from a long way off, so there is really no good place to smoke. Just because you can smell it doesn't mean it is harming you. When I put my dog out I can smell shit, but it's not the same as eating it. Quote I don't want a law, establishments that allow smoking can always cater to the poor that are primarily smokers - it's a big market. . Huh? Rich people don't smoke? I would put forward that this has nothing at all to do with it. The primary factor seems to be - did your parents smoke. Mine did, which seemed to lead me to it. And realisticly, do you think people WANT to smoke? I hate it. I hate spending $5 a pack on killing myself. Studies have shown that it is more addictive than heroin, and I believe it. Zipp0 QuoteJust because you can smell it doesn't mean it is harming you. When I put my dog out I can smell shit, but it's not the same as eating it. You make some args and have a good attitude, but driving a car and taking a shit are necessities, smoking is an addiction. QuoteAnd realisticly, do you think people WANT to smoke? I hate it. I hate spending $5 a pack on killing myself. Studies have shown that it is more addictive than heroin, and I believe it. Yep Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #107 April 28, 2006 QuoteQuote Me jumping out of an acft over farmland isn't going to poison you or anyone - you smkoing near me will slowly poison me. There, fixed it for ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #108 April 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote You can smell it from a long way off, so there is really no good place to smoke. Just because you can smell it doesn't mean it is harming you. When I put my dog out I can smell shit, but it's not the same as eating it. Quote I don't want a law, establishments that allow smoking can always cater to the poor that are primarily smokers - it's a big market. . Huh? Rich people don't smoke? I would put forward that this has nothing at all to do with it. The primary factor seems to be - did your parents smoke. Mine did, which seemed to lead me to it. And realisticly, do you think people WANT to smoke? I hate it. I hate spending $5 a pack on killing myself. Studies have shown that it is more addictive than heroin, and I believe it. Zipp0 Don't blame your addictions on your parents...I grew up with a father who smoked a pack and a half a day. That is a cop out...he is the primary reason I never picked up the habit, seeing how hard it was for him to quit and living with the nasty smoke. He has finally had to quit or choose to die doing it. It has literally come down to his health and whether he wants to see his grandkids or not. He has not smoked since January 1 and I am very proud of him. I'm in the same boat, entire family smoked, I never did. But I do think genetics and environmental factors are huge with influence of behavior. BTW, they all quit.... I was right/them wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #109 April 28, 2006 QuoteKelp: screw statistics. I know what I've seen with my own eyes the better part of my adult life. What are you talking about? His statistics summary is EXTREMELY in support of your statement and very contrary to his position with college grads at 11% vs HS dropouts at 35% - 11% is "next to nothing". The smoking rate drops DRAMATICALLY with both increased income and increased education. I'd like to see the stats on the medical field and smoking. From what I've seen, nurses are the absolute worst. I wonder if the numbers match out or if I've just observed anomolies - which is a problem with relying on ones "own two eyes over the better part of their adult life". It's called personal bias and is the main cause of all huge mistakes in the history of mankind. Those that complete High School have a significantly less likelihood than those that do not. Those that complete College have a DRAMATICALLY significantly less likelihood than those that don't attend or drop out before graduation. Anyway, you were correct in your observation, Kelp's stats support you. Properly applied statistics are your friends ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #110 April 28, 2006 Quote What are you talking about? His statistics summary is EXTREMELY in support of your statement and very contrary to his position with college grads at 11% vs HS dropouts at 35% - 11% is "next to nothing". The smoking rate drops DRAMATICALLY with both increased income and increased education. 1 in 10 isn't next to nothing. It's half the average of 20%. The delta is a bit steeper than I suspected, but a far cry different from the claims made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #111 April 28, 2006 Quote Again, and Clinton was a POS, therefore Bush can;t be as bad as they say. HUUUUUUUH????? yeah, huh? What do Presidents have to do with this topic? You know, a hit of nicotine would help your concentration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #112 April 28, 2006 Quote1 in 10 isn't next to nothing. subjective assessment in the definition of "next to nothing" so it's pointless to argue one way or the other. That's the problem with 'claims' that are qualitative. That's why your stats are so much easier to assess. quantitative? 4 samples (35, 29, 22, 11) mean of 24, sigma of 10. 95% confidence interval of +/- 16. Typically then, 11 would not be different than 0 (thus 'next to nothing'). But this is a crappy way to analyze it, because all the 'real' data is crushed into 4 values.......But that's all we have to work with. Better to do it with all the raw data and run the t-test comparison to zero using rates or proportions...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #113 April 28, 2006 QuoteQuote1 in 10 isn't next to nothing. subjective assessment in the definition of "next to nothing" so it's pointless to argue one way or the other. That's the problem with 'claims' that are qualitative. That's why your stats are so much easier to assess. If a quarter of the population has a college degree and 10% of them smoke, that's over 5 million people. And not surprisingly, it was a bit higher for the top quartile on income - 3 or 4M more. These people are the ones that are least affected by the rising prices. In any world of verbal gymnastics, 5 - 10M people is not next to nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #114 April 28, 2006 QuoteIn any world of verbal gymnastics, 5 - 10M people is not next to nothing. Oh, we have an absolutist here? I think 10 people in a stadium is next to nothing. If it's just my family, then 2 people are the entire world. Call it 'gymnastics' if you'd like. I like to think of it as "spring board diving." IMHO ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #115 April 28, 2006 QuoteHmm dont we live in a Democracy????? Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy. It is a Chucktatorship. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,151 #116 April 28, 2006 Quoteshould smoking be banned in public places? No But smoking should be banned from the work place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #117 April 28, 2006 Quote Oh, we have an absolutist here? I think 10 people in a stadium is next to nothing. does the stadium only have 100 seats? otherwise, you're talking about thousands of people at 11%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #118 April 29, 2006 CHILL! The solution to the problem is to shutdown the manufactures. If people still want to smoke let them grow their own tabbaco. Simple. FDA will take Vioxx (SP?) and other drugs that hurt off the market, why wont the just shut down Marlboro plants? Cause just like the war on drugs there is this TAX . Yeah, all smokers turn over your packs and you will find a small stamp that proves the TAX was paid. Instead of voteing to ban public places lets vote to ban production of tabbaco?_________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
