Hybrids Don't Save Money

[Gravitymaster 0]

Magazine: Hybrids don't save money
By Matt NaumanMercury News

If you're thinking of buying a hybrid vehicle to save money, you won't -- ever -- said Consumer Reports magazine.

In its April auto issue, due on newsstands Tuesday, the magazine said the six most popular gasoline-electric hybrids will end up costing owners from $3,700 to $13,300 more over five years compared with similar gasoline models. Much of that comes from the higher purchase price of hybrids vs. non-hybrids, but they also will lose more of their value, the report said.

The complexity of the vehicles, questions about battery life and replacement cost and a lack of independent repair shops that will work on hybrids all result in extra depreciation costs, said David Champion, the magazine's senior director of automotive testing.

``None of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership,'' said the magazine. ``Nor did any when the analysis was extended to 10 years and 150,000 miles.''

Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, said the study took the price of gas from $3 a gallon now to $4 a gallon five years from now. ``Still, the cost didn't add up,'' he said.

The costs and benefits of the Ford Escape, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Lexus RX 400h, Toyota Highlander and Toyota Prius hybrids were evaluated by Consumer Reports.

Hybrids do provide strong fuel economy, emit less pollution and, in some cases, give their owners tax breaks (which were taken into account by the magazine) and access to carpool lanes and free parking spots, the magazine noted.

It recommended five of the hybrids, but doesn't endorse the Ford Escape SUV because two of its wheels left the pavement during its government rollover test.

[storm1977 0]

On a similar note... Hydrogen Fuels cells burn more fossil fuels than a normal combustion engine....

Why?

Because oil is burned by the machinery used to create the hydrogen (not sure of the hole processes). Currently, it take more oil or coal put in to the system than is taken out by the fuel cell.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[sundevil777 94]

I'm surprised that they don't break even with the tax breaks included.

It is amazing how the internal combustion engine may still find a way to improve its efficiency significantly, by increasing the compression ratio to a point that a gasoline engine will ignite on its own like a diesel, but the fuel will already be in the air as it is drawn in the cylinder, eliminating the trouble diesels have with achieving clean combustion as the fuel is injected and combustion happens simultaneously:

http://www.me.berkeley.edu/cal/HCCI/

This is also an interesting idea for a crank mechanism, with great torque benefits:

http://www.revetec.com/?q=taxonomy/term/19

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Gravitymaster 0]

Interestin. Especially the Revtec engine. The site doesn't seem to have been updated for a while. Any idea of where they are in marketing the engine?

[sundevil777 94]

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Interestin. Especially the Revtec engine. The site doesn't seem to have been updated for a while. Any idea of where they are in marketing the engine?

I don't know about the progress of the Revtec.

Increasing the compression ratio is one of the basic ways to increase thermal efficiency, so it is exciting that something so achievable may be in the near future.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnnyD 0]

I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

[sundevil777 94]

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I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

They are a good source of info on many things.

However, what they did to the Isuzu Trooper was very unethical. Their test driver had trouble getting the thing to lift up on 2 wheels during their slalom test, so they had to repeatedly try different techniques in order to achieve their desired results. Then they did not report it as such.

What they did in reporting the Boeing 757 as having an unhealthy air conditioning system was extremely unethical. There is nothing unusual about it.

Those 2 stories are kinda like NBC Dateline's reporting of the truck collision/fire story, they had to add an ignition source to achieve their desired result. They knew the fires were possible, but darn it, their tests just weren't going that way, so it is much less expensive and troublesome to just make it happen.

Dateline should be forced to admit their fraud before and after every show for the next 10 years, and I think Consumer Reports should have to do something similar.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Gravitymaster 0]

What you say is true. But since CR is a very green organization, you would think they would support hybrid technology for it's lower gas consumption and emissions.

[sundevil777 94]

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What you say is true. But since CR is a very green organization, you would think they would support hybrid technology for it's lower gas consumption and emissions.

I don't doubt their analysis on the hybrid story, just wanting to dispell the myth that they are always to be trusted because they are supposed to be unbiased.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,464]

>The complexity of the vehicles, questions about battery life
>and replacement cost and a lack of independent repair shops that
>will work on hybrids all result in extra depreciation costs . . . .

I remember the same being said for fuel injection, computerized ignition controls and catalytic converters. (How do you find a car shop that will work on a _computer_?) Nowadays all cars have these.

Hybrids will be similar. In ten years most cars will have some form of hybrid drive. In many cases this won't be for fuel savings or emissions reduction, but cost savings. Belts, power steering pumps, and air conditioning compressors will soon be replaced by electrically driven versions of these same devices to reduce maintenance costs. And to get enough power to drive all these, some form of hybrid drive will be used. The 'weakest' form of this will be a 42 volt motor/generator, a 2-3 kilowatt shaft driven motor generator that will generate power to run all those accessories, restart the car after stops and provide a small amount of 'boost' during acceleration.

It will also give you an increase of a few MPG, which is a selling point.

Going to 42 volts will also allow manufacturers to reduce wire gauges significantly. Copper costs about $10/pound when fabricated into wire harnesses, so cutting 30 pounds of wiring from a vehicle (half the wire weight) could save $300 in manufacturing costs - and cut gas usage a bit more. Going to higher voltages (as the current hybrids do) could save more money, but battery costs start going up.

But the big thing that will drive long term acceptance of hybrids will be performance. Hybrids have the ability to deliver much higher levels of performance than purely gas-driven vehicles, since the torque curve of an electric motor is almost perfectly flat - at least, up to base speed. Internal combustion engines peak at higher RPM's, so the combination of the two makes a very powerful vehicle. So far, hybrids have been designed for fuel economy rather than power, and thus haven't been part of this market. But once the performance hybrid market opens up, you'll see people willing to spend an extra $5000 for the fastest thing on the block.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I don't disagree with you. Technology always gets better as time goes by. I think the point of the article is that if you are thinking about purchasing a Hybrid, these are some factors you need to consider in your decision.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/high-cost-of-hybrid-vehicles-406/hybrids-vs-all-gas.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=2&searchTerm=hybrids

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

Then perhaps you'd like to share with us, the research you've done independently that refutes their conclusions?

[JohnnyD 0]

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I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

Then perhaps you'd like to share with us, the research you've done independently that refutes their conclusions?

Not intended for me???

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

Then perhaps you'd like to share with us, the research you've done independently that refutes their conclusions?

Wait. He just said thanks for the information and you are going to argue with him about something he never even implied?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

Then perhaps you'd like to share with us, the research you've done independently that refutes their conclusions?

Not intended for me???

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. My bad.

[JohnnyD 0]

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I trust consumer reports. I am completely reconsidering my opinion on hybrids. Thanks for the article.

Then perhaps you'd like to share with us, the research you've done independently that refutes their conclusions?

Not intended for me???

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. My bad.

Nope. Made me think agout it in a whole new way.

[narcimund 0]

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Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. My bad.

Nope. Made me think agout it in a whole new way.

Don't feel bad. I get kneejerk responses from these people too. Reading and thinking isn't as much fun as criticizing by reflex.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[kelpdiver 2]

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But the big thing that will drive long term acceptance of hybrids will be performance. Hybrids have the ability to deliver much higher levels of performance than purely gas-driven vehicles, since the torque curve of an electric motor is almost perfectly flat - at least, up to base speed. Internal combustion engines peak at higher RPM's, so the combination of the two makes a very powerful vehicle. So far, hybrids have been designed for fuel economy rather than power, and thus haven't been part of this market. But once the performance hybrid market opens up, you'll see people willing to spend an extra $5000 for the fastest thing on the block.

This has already happened with the Highlander- which rates 268hp. Fuel economy is in the upper 20s, likely, but it's a midsize suv that seats 7. Probably true for the Lexus model too.

We had Civics getting 45mpg 10 years ago, never mind the Metro class (3 cylinder) doing even better. We can have very efficient gas cars - people just don't seem to want to buy them.

[JohnnyD 0]

Wonder why you don't feel the love?

Edit: If the cycle of hate is going to stop, it has to stop with you. You have to be bigger than that if you truly hope to influence people.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Wonder why you don't feel the love?

Edit: If the cycle of hate is going to stop, it has to stop with you. You have to be bigger than that if you truly hope to influence people.

Some are incapable because their hate incapacitates them.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Wonder why you don't feel the love?

Edit: If the cycle of hate is going to stop, it has to stop with you. You have to be bigger than that if you truly hope to influence people.

Some are incapable because their hate incapacitates them.

Not going to win any friends by taking gratuitous shots, but I guess it can be hard not to when you are constanly getting them yourself. However, there probably wouldn't be so many shots at the gay guy if the gay guy didn't take so many. Wait. I'm in the cycle of hate.

[GTAVercetti 0]

I thought we were in the trust tree? In the nest?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[narcimund 0]

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You have to be bigger than that if you truly hope to influence people.

I don't hope to influence anyone. I know that bigotry, and especially bigotry caused by religious beliefs, is incurable.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[JohnnyD 0]

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I thought we were in the trust tree? In the nest?

Never been.
Circle of Hate for me.
Someday, the axis of evil!

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I know that bigotry, and especially bigotry caused by religious beliefs, is incurable.

That is untrue. It may be hard to change but is definitely not incurable. Bigotry is learned. Anything learned can be unlearned.

My good friend in high school was a racist for a long time. Until he started hanging out with my friends (some of whom were black). And he realized that the way he was thinking was ignorant and wrong. He has since changed his outlook.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.