billvon 2,426 #1 February 23, 2006 O'Reilly in November: -------------- These pinheads running around going, "Get out of Iraq now," don't know what they're talking about. These are the same people before Hitler invaded in World War II that were saying, "Ah, he's not such a bad guy." They don't get it. ------------- O'Reilly a few days ago: ------------- Somewhat of a disturbing report out of Iraq, and it's more important than it first appears. The governor of -- or the mayor of Karbala, which is a town in the south part of Iraq, Shiite-controlled, has banned any further government dealings with the American military in his province, saying that they're not behaving well. Now, it's a small little thing, but I picked up on it, because here is the essential problem in Iraq. There are so many nuts in the country -- so many crazies -- that we can't control them. And I don't -- we're never gonna be able to control them. So the only solution to this is to hand over everything to the Iraqis as fast as humanly possible. Because we just can't control these crazy people. This is all over the place. And that was the big mistake about America: They didn't -- it was the crazy-people underestimation. We did not know how to deal with them -- still don't. But they're just all over the place. ------------ It only took him three years to figure that out. I hope the government figures it out soon as well - at least before we get dragged into the civil war that's starting there. The last thing we need to do (for our own safety and for the good of humanity) is kill another tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis in the course of fighting a civil war for someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #2 February 23, 2006 Bill, I didn't know that you hang out in the "no spin zone"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontbounce 0 #3 February 23, 2006 Well, considering the way that replublicans have had their asses handed to them in the last 6 months(numerous felony indictments, numerous investigations, shootings, etc, etc), it would be prudent for Bill to try to become more of a centrist in his thoughts wouldn't it? Besides, it has been my experience that Fox News and the Republican propaganda machine will say whatever fits with the mood of the country at any given time. If 70% of the country wants to kick some ass (e.g. after 9/11) then they are "eagles" or "hawks". If 70% of the country wants out of Iraq because our children and our brothers are getting killed every day, suddenly they become "diplomats"... They are a crafty bunch that can appear to the uninformed public to maintain a consistent message while shifting the underlying logic supporting the message constantly. Like an oil painting on a waterbed. The end result is the same, but the rationale used to come to that conclusion shifts every time their argument is exposed as flawed logic (the Iraq - 9/11 connection), incompetent (Katrina was really TWO natural disasters! Thats why we werent ready!) or even downright dishonest (Downing Street Memo/WMD/Cia Leak/Iraq War). The worst part is, 90% of America is too busy watching "American Idol" to care. Give them a slogan, and some sparkly brochures and they will revoke the bill of rights... Sounds like somebody is being a "flip flopper"... For all of you Republicans lining me up in your crosshairs, Fire away... I won't cry... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #4 February 23, 2006 QuoteWell, considering the way that replublicans have had their asses handed to them in the last 6 months(numerous felony indictments, numerous investigations, shootings, etc, etc), it would be prudent for Bill to try to become more of a centrist in his thoughts wouldn't it? Besides, it has been my experience that Fox News and the Republican propaganda machine will say whatever fits with the mood of the country at any given time. If 70% of the country wants to kick some ass (e.g. after 9/11) then they are "eagles" or "hawks". If 70% of the country wants out of Iraq because our children and our brothers are getting killed every day, suddenly they become "diplomats"... They are a crafty bunch that can appear to the uninformed public to maintain a consistent message while shifting the underlying logic supporting the message constantly. Like an oil painting on a waterbed. The end result is the same, but the rationale used to come to that conclusion shifts every time their argument is exposed as flawed logic (the Iraq - 9/11 connection), incompetent (Katrina was really TWO natural disasters! Thats why we werent ready!) or even downright dishonest (Downing Street Memo/WMD/Cia Leak/Iraq War). The worst part is, 90% of America is too busy watching "American Idol" to care. Give them a slogan, and some sparkly brochures and they will revoke the bill of rights... Sounds like somebody is being a "flip flopper"... For all of you Republicans lining me up in your crosshairs, Fire away... I won't cry... congrats...you just figured out what politicians on both sides of the aisle do in order to win. for each point you made, there is a similar event that can be pinned on democrats. the general public has no idea what is going on; you're right about that. that being said, what is your solution to bring logic and reason back to our govt. instead of politics and jockey-ing for position?"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 February 23, 2006 QuoteBesides, it has been my experience that Fox News and the Republican propaganda machine will say whatever fits with the mood of the country at any given time. So you're saying that Fox News and the Republicans represent the will of the people? I think some of the lefties here have written entire novels here in defiance of your position. I think that O'Reilly's 'giving up' on the Iraqi people at this point is representative of a general feel that although (if best intentions are assumed - some will violently disagree with that, but go with the hypothetical) an attempt to stabilize that region has been made, that the region does not WANT to be stabilized. Since Iraq is able to vote and choose their own style of democracy, then it's time they took it all. Ready or not, no more hand holding. The coalition should go home to their respective countries. It's not an unreasonable position. But it directly conflicts with the "if we started this mess/correction/etc (I don't care what one's politics forces them to call it) then we need to stay now and finish it well." He's just doing his job, he's putting out a thinking/debating point that has a couple sides to it worth discussion. Why should O'Reilly have any mission other than making sure he gets good ratings. After all, his job is an opinion show, not news. And debate is the heart of a good opinion show. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #6 February 23, 2006 All he said was that we should hand things over to the Iraqis as fast as humanly possible. So, duhh...even I support a withdrawal, but not before the Iraqis are 100% ready to manage it. There is still a lot of work to be done in Iraq. Believe me. Our feet on the ground here make a huge difference, and I'm in one of the hot spots. I've been on OPs and patrols with Iraqi Army. It's not time yet. O'Reilly didn't say "Get out now", he did suggest that we leave when the handover to the Iraqis is complete. You could write him and suggest his change on the issue, I bet he'd comment on it on the air. ---from Iraq...blue skiesSo I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #7 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteBesides, it has been my experience that Fox News and the Republican propaganda machine will say whatever fits with the mood of the country at any given time. So you're saying that Fox News and the Republicans represent the will of the people? I think some of the lefties here have written entire novels here in defiance of your position. . Don't confuse "represent" with "pander to".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #8 February 23, 2006 QuoteSo, duhh...even I support a withdrawal, but not before the Iraqis are 100% ready to manage it. There is still a lot of work to be done in Iraq. Believe me. Our feet on the ground here make a huge difference, and I'm in one of the hot spots. I've been on OPs and patrols with Iraqi Army. It's not time yet. I appreciate what you're saying (and your service); but the question is, when the hell will they be 100% ready? Will they/can they ever be 100% ready? The older one is, the more one can draw on one's own life experience to learn from history. I was a kid during the Vietnam war, but I clearly remember "Vietnamization." (Google it; interesting lesson.) It was basically "even I support a withdrawal, but not before the Iraqis South Vietnamese are 100% ready to manage it." Well, it was a disaster. The South Viets were far from ready to handle it on their own, and we only pulled out when it dawned on Nixon & Ford that they would never be ready. So to me: boy, does this all sound familiar. Old cliche, but true: those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 February 23, 2006 QuoteDon't confuse "represent" with "pander to". good point - so now we're back to TV ratings and politics in general for all political parties pandering - also known as flip flopping Many activist groups consider "representing" only to consist of 'pandering' to their specific positions. So I'd submit that to you and me "represent" and "pander" are different. But that our thoughts on that aren't necessarily typical. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #10 February 23, 2006 >All he said was that we should hand things over to the Iraqis as fast >as humanly possible. So, duhh...even I support a withdrawal, but not > before the Iraqis are 100% ready to manage it. Well right - but that would be as SLOWLY as humanly possible, since they will never be 100% ready to manage it. They may come close. O'Reilly's position is being echoed by a lot of the public. Cheney's position is similar to yours, I think - we are going to be there for a LONG time, because the place is a quagmire, and violence is escalating towards a civil war, which will be the next war we have to fight. And then we will have another rebuilding effort to start. >O'Reilly didn't say "Get out now" . . . Of course; literally impossible. It would take weeks to just transport all the troops out. But "as soon as possible" is miles from "when the Iraqis are 100% ready." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #11 February 25, 2006 >even I support a withdrawal, but not before the Iraqis are 100% ready to manage it. That day just slipped a little more. In January Iraq had one battalion ready to fight on their own. Now they have zero. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/24/iraq.security/index.html?section=cnn_topstories How long before we admit that the Iraqis aren't becoming what we want them to be? Five years? Ten? Twenty? How long do we go on before we realize that we're part of the problem, and we're not bringing it any closer to a solution? (fixed link) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OATSF14 0 #12 February 25, 2006 QuoteWell, considering the way that replublicans have had their asses handed to them in the last 6 months(numerous felony indictments, numerous investigations, shootings, etc, etc), Being a Republican I do however agree with you on this one. I would much rather have been a Democratic President getting blow jobs in the White House from my interns. Sounds much more statesman like to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #13 February 26, 2006 Quote LONG time, because the place is a quagmire, and violence is escalating towards a civil war, which will be the next war we have to fight. this is in fact quite disturbing. The one thing that, up to now, I tended to be mildly optimistic about in Iraq was that there would be no major escalation into a civil war between different religions and ethnicities. I had listened (and talked) to quite a few exiled Iraqis who had all sorts of opinions about the invasion. One things I heard repeatedly was that people there were Iraqis first and their religions and ethnicities came second. Everyone of them rejected the possibility of a civil war as absurd and pointed to long traditions of mutual tolerance etc. The last weeks must have been a rude awakening for many Iraqis. This is not unlike Yugoslavia where no one would have coveiced it possible that a major civil war could break out in a country that was a major destination for western European tourists and by many thought to be next in line for western integration as Poland or Hungary. The departure of a "strong man" and no power to secure order and safety as replacement. Very disturbing ... Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #14 February 28, 2006 >The last weeks must have been a rude awakening for many Iraqis. Indeed. And it's sounding like it's much worse than previously reported: --------------------------------------- Toll in Iraq's Deadly Surge: 1,300 Morgue Count Eclipses Other Tallies Since Shrine Attack By Ellen Knickmeyer and Bassam Sebti Tuesday, February 28, 2006 BAGHDAD, Feb. 27 -- Grisly attacks and other sectarian violence unleashed by last week's bombing of a Shiite Muslim shrine have killed more than 1,300 Iraqis, making the past few days the deadliest of the war outside of major U.S. offensives, according to Baghdad's main morgue. The toll was more than three times higher than the figure previously reported by the U.S. military and the news media. Hundreds of unclaimed dead lay at the morgue at midday Monday -- blood-caked men who had been shot, knifed, garroted or apparently suffocated by the plastic bags still over their heads. Many of the bodies were sprawled with their hands still bound -- and many of them had wound up at the morgue after what their families said was their abduction by the Mahdi Army, the Shiite militia of cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. --------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #15 February 28, 2006 Quote Cheney's position is similar to yours, I think - we are going to be there for a LONG time Read: Halliburton's position is similiar to yours, ... Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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