Did the US win the Second World War for the Europeans?

[pirana 0]

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.....At least that is how I see it. Basically is came down to "we saved your ass, show us a little respect."

then my point #2 applies for "that" individual. I put in point #1 because it is the knee jerk response quite often. And then the refutation isn't against the original speaker, it's just a minimization of all things American.

This thread is much more reasonable than the normal stuff. Kudos to the first poster for setting up without the confrontational/defensive mood.

I like caramel better than jelly beans. And black licorice

I agree. Its good to see that many people with the view that while America DID help, we were only a piece of the total puzzle. Without all the pieces, it probably would have turned out differently.

I hate black licorice. BLEH. But carmel jelly beans are delicious.

Not enough time to read the whole thread, but 2 things:

1 - Rehmwa's got it right about the team effort. Without any one of the major players, the war would have been much longer, and quite possibly lost.

2 - How about those caramel apple jelly beans! Yummy.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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The names will be different,but most families in the US can tell the same story

I know...and you obviously missed my point.

The Americans did not win on their own...no other country won on their own. It was a collective effort that brought victory. We will never know which piece of the puzzle could have been omitted and still ensure victory.

The US did not win WWII for the Europeans as was the original question. But they certainly helped.

[miked10270 0]

"If Barbarossa had been launched on time..."

And if your Auntie had a...

Had Barbarossa been launched on time, then it would have bogged down in the marshes of Belorussia! The reason Barbarossa was delayed was primarily because of the wet winter of 1940-41 which left the Pripet Marshes waterlogged & largely impassable in military terms.

However, I'm pretty sure that this was irrelevant. Remember that the USSR successfully relocated their strategic industries behind The Urals. The loss or seige of Moscow wouldn't have ended the German-Soviet war - and the traditional Russian military geniusses would inevitably done to hitler just what they did to Napoleon. "Marshall Kilometer" would have held out until "General Winter" struck.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[kallend 1,672]

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"If Barbarossa had been launched on time..."

And if your Auntie had a...

Had Barbarossa been launched on time, then it would have bogged down in the marshes of Belorussia! The reason Barbarossa was delayed was primarily because of the wet winter of 1940-41 which left the Pripet Marshes waterlogged & largely impassable in military terms.

However, I'm pretty sure that this was irrelevant. Remember that the USSR successfully relocated their strategic industries behind The Urals. The loss or seige of Moscow wouldn't have ended the German-Soviet war - and the traditional Russian military geniusses would inevitably done to hitler just what they did to Napoleon. "Marshall Kilometer" would have held out until "General Winter" struck.

Mike.

During the Nuremberg trials after WWII, Hitler's Chief of Staff Field Marshall Keitel stated that "The unbelievable strong resistance of the Greeks delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today".

Another view:

He gave this huge operation a
suitable name. He termed it 'Operation Barbarossa' or 'Redbeard' which
was the nickname of the crusading 12th century Holy Roman emperor,
Frederick I. The campaign consisted of three groups: Army Group North
which would secure the Baltic; Army Group South which would take the
coal and oil rich lands of the Ukraine and Caucasus; and Army Group
Centre which would drive towards Moscow. Prior to deploying this
massive force, military events in the Balkans delayed 'Barbarossa' by
five weeks. It is now widely agreed that this delay proved fatal to
Hitler's conquest plans of Russia but, at the time it did not seem
important. In mid-June the build-up was complete and the German Army
stood poised for battle.

Another view:


The Balkans were very important to Germany for two reasons: economically, Germany relied heavily on the Balkans' raw resources, (e.g. bauxite, cereals, cottons, metals, etc.) especially its oil. Strategically, control of the Balkans secured its southern flank in Operation Barbarossa and acted as a forward base for operations in the Mediterranean.

In late 1940 and early 1941, there was increasing friction between Germany and the Soviet Union in the Balkans.13 Moreover, the British had occupied Greece, the island of Crete and Lemnos in early 1941. The latter provided them with an advanced air base from which they could invade the Balkans and bomb the Romanian oil fields.

Hence Hitler ordered Operation Marita (codeword for the Greek and Yugoslavian invasion) on 1 April 1941. 14 As a result, Operation Barbarossa was delayed from mid-May to 22 June 1941. This delay proved to be fatal, causing the Germans to run out of time during the Russian campaign. However, the weather and ground conditions would not have been favourable earlier than the first week of June.15 Therefore a postponement would have been necessary, Balkans or no Balkans.

The real disadvantages from the Balkan campaign were the wear and tear on the tanks, resulting in high rate of mechanical failure in Operation Barbarossa. Secondly, the Balkan campaign deprived the Army Group South of about a third of its armoured strength for its initial attack and their loss was sorely felt. Finally, the failed airborne invasion of Crete discouraged Hitler to attempt any further large airborne operations, which could have been invaluable in the Russian campaign.16 These tactical/operational disadvantages soon translated into military strategic disadvantages during Operation Barbarossa.

Germany could not afford to lose control of its lifeline to either Russia or Britain. Therefore the operations in the Balkans were necessary to safeguard its capability to wage further wars. The tactical/operational disadvantages could have been avoided could Operation Barbarossa have been postponed.



and another:

On 6 September 1940, Colonel-General Franz Halder, Chief of Staff of the Army, directed the preparation of plans which were ready by late November, including war games indicating the limits of the forces and logistics needed to support such a massive operation. In early December, Halder discussed the plan with Hitler, who refused to decide whether the basic objective should be Moscow or Leningrad and the Ukraine. This lack of strategic direction haunted the operation, but Halder and OKH (Oberkommando des Heeres, the Army High Command) were confident that Russia could be defeated.

Barbarossa was planned as a ten-week campaign that would start on 15 May 1941, allowing for many months of favorable weather. But events elsewhere delayed implementation of the plan: the Afrika Korps was dispatched to North Africa (February 1941) and German troops were required in Greece and Crete to assist the weak Italians.



Let's hear it for the Greeks!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[miked10270 0]

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/balkan/20_260_5.htm

Chapter 25, Paragraph 4 (around 2/3 of the way down the page.

Whether any committment was made to the Balkans or not... Barbarossa COULDN'T have comenced on 15th May because of the weather! This was something that couldn't be changed by all the strategic decisions in the world. It was a simple fact of the state of the terrain Germany was going to advance over.

Barbarossa would have gotten absolute priority and indeed did launch as soon as it was physically possible... Once the ground had dried out sufficiently to allow movement!

Consider Fuhrerbefehl 21:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/1084/hitler_directives/dir21.htm

This was, to all intents & purposes the entire reason for WWII. Viz: Hitler building a land based Greater Germany, or Eurasian Empire based on Professor Haushofer's view of Geopolitics and as given to Hitler when he was Hess's cellmate in Spandau with Haushofer a near daily visitor. Let's not forget that Hitler was an Uneducated, Working-Class man who was believed to have been overpromoted to Corporal by his WWI officers. This was his first, & only significant access to higher education (and it had to be in Geopolitics!)

If we're going to quote, then how about: "Our Empire will stretch to The Urals. The Ukraine will be our breadbasket, The Black Sea will be our Riviera, and we will travel there on the autobahns we will build."-AH.

In effect, the origins, actions & results of WWII are the result of the motivations & desires of the main protagonists.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Zenister 0]

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Let's hear it for the Greeks!

ummm no... same issue with cause and effect the rest of this thread suffers from...

see the one you didnt bold

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However, the weather and ground conditions would not have been favourable earlier than the first week of June.15 Therefore a postponement would have been necessary, Balkans or no Balkans.

so the timeline WOULD NOT HAVE CHANGED....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 1,672]

From your quoted source:

"As early as 27 March Hitler estimated that the campaign against Yugoslavia would delay the invasion by about four weeks. This estimate was based on the diversion of forces for the assembly against Yugoslavia. Headquarters staffs, divisions, and GHQ units that were on the way to the concentration areas for Operation BARBAROSSA or whose departure was imminent had to be diverted. Those units had to be replaced by others whose departure was delayed because they were not ready for commitment. However, of the two corps headquarters and nine divisions that were diverted to the Yugoslav campaign, all but three infantry divisions were replaced from the Army High Command reserves by the time Operation BARBAROSSA got under way.

?Another factor considered in calculating the delay was that all units, in particular the armored and motorized infantry divisions, would have to be refitted after the Balkan campaigns. This rehabilitation, which was estimated to take a minimum of three weeks for the mobile Units, had to be performed within Germany in the vicinity of major repair shops and spare parts depots.

The plans for the invasion of Russia were modified in accordance with this estimate. On 7 April Field Marshal von Brauchitsch issued an order in which he explained that Operation 25 necessitated changes in the preparations for the Russian campaign postponing it between four and six weeks. The new target date was to be 22 June. Subsequent conferences between Hitler and his military advisers confirmed this new date for D-day, and it was adhered to in the end."


Whether or not the weather was bad had no influence on the decision to delay Barbarossa, which had already been made.

Of course, I expect you know better than Field Marshall Keitel, he was only Hitler's chief of staff, after all.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.