Landing collision at Mile-Hi on 12/3/06?

[LloydDobbler 2]

So I'm posting this here, since I'm not sure if this qualifies as an official "incident" (and since I heard about it secondhand) - was anyone jumping up at Mile-Hi yesterday? Wanted to see if anyone had any additional info on this:

I heard word from someone who was there that, after a weather hold for most of the day, an AFF-3 student on the second load got a long spot, tried for the landing area, and wound up landing on the roof of a hangar. He slid off, apparently landed on his butt, and was up & daisy-chaining his canopy before his instructors got over to him.

He said he felt fine, but apparently most people there thought that he had broken (actually, the word used was 'shattered') his tailbone, and was still in the adrenalin-induced high, so the pain was dulled.

I don't want to say any more about what I heard, since it's secondhand knowledge on my part, and I don't want to promote hearsay...but I would like to get some additional info, if anyone was there. Is the jumper okay? Any word on any injuries?

Feel free to move this to another forum, if need-be. Like I said, didn't want to put it in Incidents, since I'm not sure if this is a big enough incident to qualify.

KC

[kaiserD 0]

that was me! first of all, i'm ok- i didn't shatter my tailbone and had no signifcant injuries. i was lucky.

this was my 3rd AFF jump and basically until the last 5 seconds or so (and past the point where i could find another way out) thought i could clear the hangar. stupid decision on my part, and also a reflection on my inexperience. live and learn.

a little over a week later, i'm still a little sore but am very pumped to do more jumps. just gotta avoid them obstacles...

[hosehead634 0]

I was there watching this person jump, he is actually one on my friends. Everything you described is correct, except in my opinion the long spot, I think he flew his canopy ferther away. I beleive that the radio communication may have played a large factor in him being so far off. If anyone has jumped with the radios at mile hi I think they would agree that somtimes it is hard to hear the instructors directions, that being said I know that the mentioned student has realized many things from this jump, notably that he is ultimatly the one who has final say in his safety, two that he always needs to have another out, even if that means swallowing his pride and landing off the DZ and three, he cannot always rely on others decisions, thay might not always be there.

With all that being said I will say that was on of the scariest things i have witnessed, as far as injuries he has no broken bones, just a bruised foot and scrape on his elbow(ego too) Everyone on the trailer thought his injuries would have been extensive.

Just a side note the first thing he said when the trailer pulled up was "Did you guys see THAT!" It is also worth noting that he failed AFF 3 but is looking foward to getting back up to prove himself

"How high are we? Man I need to poop"

[LloydDobbler 2]

Hey, man - glad to hear you're okay. My GF saw the whole thing and was worried. It sounded like a scary thing to watch, much less go through...so I just wanted to look for some more info.

Judging from the way you're talking, I'm sure you know by now the best thing you can do after this sort of thing: learn from it. Then something like this becomes an opportunity, rather than something you'd rather forget. The whole "that which does not kill us makes us stronger" thing...literally, in this case.

(And incidentally, I'm sure you know the beer rules...ahem...I take it this was your first time hitting a building under canopy? ) This event might also show you one of the cooler aspects of the beer rules (at least IMHO): if you have something like this happen and bring beer as a result, you'll almost inevitably wind up talking about the event in question with more than one person. You'll gain lots of different (valuable) perspectives...and you'll probably hear a lot of stories from some of the FOG's about similar situations they went through, or witnessed themselves.

And stories from those who've "been there, done that" are a great learning tool...aside from being just plain cool to hear.
Anyway, glad to hear you're okay, and planning on "getting back on the horse." In my experience, that's really the only cure for a jump that goes wrong: doing another one that goes right.

Blue skies,
KC

[chrismgtis 0]

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just gotta avoid them obstacles...

Not sure what happened exactly, but as I've been told, don't fly over anything you don't want to land on. It's good advice.

Glad your alright. Be careful.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[kaiserD 0]

thanks guys.

[popsjumper 2]

I have this little tickle in my throat that says there's beer involved here somehow...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

BTW, could you post some "lessons learned" to help out the young jumpers who read these threads?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kaiserD 0]

"...there's beer involved here somehow..."

well, i wasn't drunk. i was high on crack, bitches! no, no, no- just kidding.

lessons learned:

focus on the task at hand this being my level 3 jump, i had been let go by my instructor to see if i could maintain stability. i could not- i went into a spin which was more sudden and quicker than i had expected. i probably could've done more to try to regain form and stability but at the time i decided i couldn't get out of the spin, so i pulled. of course, i had a line twist that kind of freaked me out a bit, but i untwisted pretty quickly without problems. so, i'm under canopy at 10,000 feet and i was pissed at myself for failing level 3. i noticed that the dz was far west of where i was (as opposed to my first 2 jumps when it was basically right below me). so i started making my way back, but kept thinking of the spin, the line twists, redoing level 3, instead of focusing on my landing.

use common sense/better judgement to override instructions given over the radio when needed. so, i'm making my way back when i hear over the radio "richard, lets see a right turn." i do my right turn even tho i'm thinking "i'm kinda far away to do maneuvering". i don't get any more instructions so decide to turn left and head for my dz. then i hear "richard, let's see an 180 degree turn." i was like, "jeez. he's making this tough on me!" i do my 180 even tho i know that i'm going opposite of where i want to go. i don't get any more instruction and i think, "this is silly, i need to get back!" turns out my instructor had another student in the air and got our names mixed up. this dawns on me when i hear "ok, richard, flare! good job!" even tho i'm still 3000 ft up.

come up with a safe landing pattern beforehand, and stick to it so, i'm far away from my dz and know that it's going to be hard to get to the landing area. i didn't want to land out so i make a beeline to where i want to go and hope for the best. at about 2000 feet i felt i had a pretty good chance to reach it but it was still too soon to tell (for me). obviously, if there was any question at all, i should have not risked it and instead should've found a safe, easy spot to get to, and just landed there, even if it meant landing out and having someone come fetch me. as i get closer, with my options diminishing, i hear over the radio "richard, you're looking good. i think you'll clear those hangars, but if you don't think you will, you need to find another way out." hey, he's actually talking to me this time! my options were a little landing area (it looked tiny to me) to the right, adjacent to the runaway. seemed like it was too close to the runway, plus there was perpindicular taxi-ing roads and such, just didn't seem like a good place to go. to my left, right next to the hangars, was a paved public road with a ditch next to it and maybe electrical wires. i wanted to stay away from that. at this point i decided to go straight and try to clear the hangars. i think i felt at the time my chances were 50/50.

i'm approaching 3 rows of hangars and i know i'll easily clear the first two. the 3rd one's going to be the tough one. and it was. as i'm coming in i make a last second decision (cause it flashed in my mind) NOT to try to flare above the hangar and try land on it. i just knew that it wouldn't work- i'd just go over the edge, head first. so at the last possible second i heave my legs up towards my body and take the impact of the roof on my butt and hamstrings. (there was probably 2-3 inches of snow on the roof which obviously helped me) i was only about 4 feet from the edge, so of course i went over the side. probably a 15-20 foot drop. but at least i was in a decent position to fall; not head first. i managed to get one leg down as i tumbled (ending up with a bruise on the ball of that foot and tweaking my ankle a bit) and i think i did some sort of weird plf to my right, scraping an elbow.

although there were miscommunication issues, i take 100% responsibility for what happened. i really have no desire to take any more unecessary risks while skydiving and i know that this sort of thing won't happen to me again. i've replayed this jump over in my mind about 4000 times and realize that i messed up, and that i'm very lucky.

[NWFlyer 2]

Excellent analysis. I think you're going to be a great addition to the skydiving community. The ability to learn from your mistakes and the willingness to share them with others is something we can use more of in this sport.
It takes a lot of humility to accept responsibility for mistakes and to thoughtfully analyze where things went wrong. You were fortunate that this incident ended so well for you and that you are able to learn from it rather than spending time in the hospital (or worse).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[AFFI 0]

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i take 100% responsibility for what happened.

i've replayed this jump over in my mind about 4000 times and realize that i messed up, and that i'm very lucky.

Yes, but did you have fun?
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[kaiserD 0]

thanks, NWFlyer, i really appreciate it.

"Yes, but did you have fun?" oh, hell yeah! i actually don't regret the ride, since i didn't do any serious/irreversible damage (i think- i'm still pretty damn sore all over, my body was pulverized). it was a pretty unique landing. i really really wish someone had caught it on video (my brother said i would've been a YouTube star, at least for a day) but once is enough, i think i'll be a little more conventional from now on.

[AFFI 0]

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and i know that this sort of thing won't happen to me again

Count on it happening again - you will be in a situation where the chips are down again if you continue to skydive (just a matter of when) - so continue to train for the unforseen events that may transpire.

Overall, my understanding is that you deployed at 10k and landed upwind of your landing target corret?

Make certain to make inquiries to your instructors and seek counsel from them while you are on student status.

Oh yeah, glad you had fun...
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[kaiserD 0]

well, i understand that unforseen events are going to happen to me. but (and i'm no nostradamus or anything) i'm positive that i won't needlessly try to clear buildings on landing ever again.

i deployed at 10,000 and i landed downwind of the target. but the wind was pretty minimal at the time.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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Excellent analysis. I think you're going to be a great addition to the skydiving community. The ability to learn from your mistakes and the willingness to share them with others is something we can use more of in this sport.

I'm in full agreement here, Krisanne. To Richard, like I said before, yeah, things go wrong. People fall down. It's how you get back up (and what you do to make sure you don't fall down again) that are the true measure of a person. The thoughtful analysis of the situation (and your willingness to share it) says a lot.

Richard, your post has brought up another question in my mind. I'm going to post a new thread on it, however, since it's related to a broader area than your incident in particular.

But like I said before, congrats on surviving...& be sure and bring the beer (maybe when things warm up a bit).

Looks like I'll be at Mile-Hi this weekend...though I doubt you'll be back this soon, if ya are, maybe I'll see you there.

KC

Signatures are the new black.

[kaiserD 0]

thanks, KC. i won't be jumping this weekend. i'm going to get me some wind tunnel time first, see if i can work on my form. hopefully i'll jump the following weekend and maybe i'll seen you then, or some other time.

[URasoldasUact 0]

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I beleive that the radio communication may have played a large factor in him being so far off. If anyone has jumped with the radios at mile hi I think they would agree that somtimes it is hard to hear the instructors directions,

LOL. When I went through AFF there a few years ago, on my first jump the jumpmasters got another student and me mixed up, and were providing directions to the wrong respective students. If I had followed the radio directions, I would have ended up materially off the drop zone. Good thing I was thinking for myself that day

What would Elvis do with a total malfunction?

[jojo69 0]

Great job on saving yourself. I know how you feel about the radio. It is hard enough to understand what they are saying on it without the confusion of who they are talking to. During my AFF there was me, Jojo and a guy Joe. The instructor finally started saying GIRL and MAN for identification.

[Gato 0]

Hello KaiserD -

From one student to another, I'm glad to hear you're OK - congrats on a non-fatal return to Earth!

It's amazing how this sport forces us to look closely at ourselves and put our egos aside. I salute you for your owning your moments, and for taking responability for what happened.

At my DZ, the owner is the radio operator, and he identifies us by the order of exit. Since I've been the heaviest student on every jump, I'm always the 1st one out and "Jumper number 1."

I think some DZs make it very difficult to know when we should begin actively correcting and making decisions for ourselves. Why does this have to be so mysterious? My only off-DZ landing (Also my 3rd jump) came as a result of not understanding the first command from the radio, and then not making the corrections I knew needed to be made as I waited for the next instruction. So that 400 yard hike was ultimately my doing.

One more quick thing, remember that it's not just about having to land on an object, it's also very much about the turbulence created by the objects. I've been taught that it can cause collapses, as well as other unpleasant anomalies.

Keep us posted on your progress - take it easy.

Gato

PS: REALLY GLAD to hear you don't have a shattered tailbone (Coccyx - pronounced "cock six" - have fun with that!) - I have broken mine twice and if you had broken yours, you'd know it, no question. When you cough or sneeze, it feels like a 3 foot metal spike driven into your neck, through your spine, out your ass, and back up again. There's a lovely visual.

T.I.N.S.

[kaiserD 0]

thanks, Gato.

i'm going to read up on objects and turbulence.

did you break your coccyx before and/or after Napoleon Dynamite? cuz as much as the pain and discomfort would suck, i think that all the lame Uncle Rico imitations i would endure from my friends would be worse...

[chrismgtis 0]

I think if you just talk with your instructors and figure out what your problem was in freefall you will be fine.

I had turn issues in freefall on one of my AFF jumps. Thought about going to a wind tunnel, but I went back the following week and did fine. Now I've done 4 solos and my first solo was the most stable jump ever. All the problems I had seemed to dissapear and I just somehow "knew" how to turn with my foot instead of how I had been taught in AFF. It just seemed to come naturally once I wasn't worrying about doing what was planned to the exact and just relaxed.

Just relax, tap your toes together so one foot isnt higher than the other and look at the horizon. That seemed to help me more than I imagined possible.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I had turn issues in freefall on one of my AFF jumps. Thought about going to a wind tunnel, but I went back the following week and did fine.

You can get over 10 jumps worth of freefall experience for less than the price of one AFF jump when you split tunnel time with a lot less stress. If you have a wind tunnel nearby (like Skyventure Colorado) there's no reason not to use it to sort out problems.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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You can get over 10 jumps worth of freefall experience for less than the price of one AFF jump when you split tunnel time with a lot less stress. If you have a wind tunnel nearby (like Skyventure Colorado) there's no reason not to use it to sort out problems.

Yeah, I'll chime in here and agree with Drew. The tunnel will help in more ways than one. In addition to giving you the opportunity to really evaluate and see what's making you move (over more than just 50 seconds of freefall), it adds a key element to the game the next time you're jumping out of a plane: confidence.

I've met several people who were having trouble with one particular leg of AFF, who just got some time in the tunnel where they could slow it down and think clearly without the stress of having to "pass" something...and all of whom passed every level on one try after that experience. I know it helped me during AFF. Just by that alone, I'd recommend going.

But there's also this point to be made: tunnel time is only going to help. It's not like you can say, "Oh, I'll be wasting that money." Nope. It'll just make you a better skydiver, in the end. If you're on the fence (and it doesn't sound like you are, but just in case), I say go for it. I would.