HydroGuy 0
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kallend 1,679
Quote
It's not the Presidents job to run around and take control of states every time a storm comes around. And that is what you people who are criticizing the President are asking him to do...for the federal government to run things for the states.
Why, then do I pay taxes to support FEMA and DHS who's explicit mission is to deal with situations just like this. If not for disasters of this magnitude, what exactly do you think DHS and FEMA are there for?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
They are there to assist and take over after the states plans and resorces have been used / pushed to the limits... But since it takes them a little bit longer to get there than it does for the people already there, the state and city MUST, *MUST* have a plan to atleast do SOMETHING until they get there! FEMA is not the first responder!
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Quote
Whatever happened to "Compassionate Conservatism"?
I feel for him, but I don't feel for him sitting on his ass and bitching while he does nothing to help himself at the same time expecting someone else to do it for him.
I hear what you're saying Bill, but the point still stands that it doesn't matter if he's at the WH, Crawford, or my backyard...he can still do his job just the same. And people getting mad b/c they see a pic of Bush weeding, well that's just ridiculous no matter what. The guy can spend a few hours weeding, and if something happens, well, he'll know in about 1.3 seconds and be inside figuring out what to do. So no, there's no problem w/ the guy taking a mental break for a while (even if that's a bike ride).
HydroGuy 0
Quote
Why, then do I pay taxes to support FEMA and DHS who's explicit mission is to deal with situations just like this. If not for disasters of this magnitude, what exactly do you think DHS and FEMA are there for?
FEMA is not a first responder. The flow chart would go: local, county, state, federal. This would mean FEMA is the last responder. And as you move down the list from city to state etc, the size and complexities increase and take longer to get going.
Where was the remaining 65% of the LA National Guard? Where were the LA State Police? Where was ANY local or state response? All I saw was the Coast Guard...which is a federal agency by the way.
Why did the City of New Orleans not have a command/communication network in place that could survive the exact disaster that they would be required to respond to?
Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary
QuoteQuote
Why, then do I pay taxes to support FEMA and DHS who's explicit mission is to deal with situations just like this. If not for disasters of this magnitude, what exactly do you think DHS and FEMA are there for?
FEMA is not a first responder. The flow chart would go: local, county, state, federal. This would mean FEMA is the last responder. And as you move down the list from city to state etc, the size and complexities increase and take longer to get going.
Where was the remaining 65% of the LA National Guard? Where were the LA State Police? Where was ANY local or state response? All I saw was the Coast Guard...which is a federal agency by the way.
Why did the City of New Orleans not have a command/communication network in place that could survive the exact disaster that they would be required to respond to?
Where were they? They were on TV complaining about how they didnt feel like they were getting the support they needed and how hopeless the situation is.. NOT something I'd expect or want to see from my Mayor or Chief of police.. It was really quite pathetic. The Chief of Police in front of a camera making an ass of himself infront of people at the super dome, ... how does that help anything... They are supposed to be leaders, and leaders are suppsoed to be strong regardless of the situation.
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
My question in general (again not to anyone in specific) is ever thought about the logistics of mobilizing for something of this magnitude.
I am NOT placing blame on any of these:
The Red Cross-most experienced in this aspect took a bit of time to respond to the situation.
The city/state designated a shelter and fell short planning and such.
FEMA rolls in with the needed supplies way too late.
The numbers of people are just starting to add up. Think about the logistics of coordinating this reaction. There is no way for the Red Cross or FEMA to have stockpiled all the necessary supplies immediately in the vicinity of the disaster areas. I would imagine getting the multitude of supplies to a specific location to be loaded and driven in to the shelter areas would take some time, as well as the actual loading and transporting (all security issues aside).
OK, so what if they were able to have an at-your-demand-stockpile of items. Would this stockpile be ferried about the country for every anticipated event? How much would that cost? Still not effective for the unpredictable events. Some goods in the stockpile do expire, how would those be rotated out and used in the smaller emergencies before going bad? Maybe smaller stockpiles all across the US would serve our continual needs better...but then we are back at the not having a huge immediate stockpile.
Well an on demand fleet of aircraft to 'pick up' all the supplies would be nice....but in the interest of taxpayers money those planes are well out of harms way during forecasted hurricanes. Hmmm, and then add the chance of losing a plane load of supplies in the bad weather that encompassed the whole east coast post Katrina, well that would limit the avialable aircraft to those on the western half of the US.
And this is only things little inexperienced in organizing mass relief supplies could think of off the top of my head. No telling all the other variables that come into play.
As for the coast guard, boy they kicked ass. Thousands picked up into helicopters with a small capacity...they have been rockin! They had the most direct job...pick up and drop off, repeat many times. I wonder if we just did not 'see' the behind the scenes acticities of the other organizations, and they were not truly sitting around doing nothing..hmmm...there is a thought.
I am NOT placing blame on any of these:
The Red Cross-most experienced in this aspect took a bit of time to respond to the situation.
The city/state designated a shelter and fell short planning and such.
FEMA rolls in with the needed supplies way too late.
The numbers of people are just starting to add up. Think about the logistics of coordinating this reaction. There is no way for the Red Cross or FEMA to have stockpiled all the necessary supplies immediately in the vicinity of the disaster areas. I would imagine getting the multitude of supplies to a specific location to be loaded and driven in to the shelter areas would take some time, as well as the actual loading and transporting (all security issues aside).
OK, so what if they were able to have an at-your-demand-stockpile of items. Would this stockpile be ferried about the country for every anticipated event? How much would that cost? Still not effective for the unpredictable events. Some goods in the stockpile do expire, how would those be rotated out and used in the smaller emergencies before going bad? Maybe smaller stockpiles all across the US would serve our continual needs better...but then we are back at the not having a huge immediate stockpile.
Well an on demand fleet of aircraft to 'pick up' all the supplies would be nice....but in the interest of taxpayers money those planes are well out of harms way during forecasted hurricanes. Hmmm, and then add the chance of losing a plane load of supplies in the bad weather that encompassed the whole east coast post Katrina, well that would limit the avialable aircraft to those on the western half of the US.
And this is only things little inexperienced in organizing mass relief supplies could think of off the top of my head. No telling all the other variables that come into play.
As for the coast guard, boy they kicked ass. Thousands picked up into helicopters with a small capacity...they have been rockin! They had the most direct job...pick up and drop off, repeat many times. I wonder if we just did not 'see' the behind the scenes acticities of the other organizations, and they were not truly sitting around doing nothing..hmmm...there is a thought.
Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...
HydroGuy 0
QuoteI hear what you're saying Bill, but the point still stands that it doesn't matter if he's at the WH, Crawford, or my backyard...he can still do his job just the same. And people getting mad b/c they see a pic of Bush weeding, well that's just ridiculous no matter what. The guy can spend a few hours weeding, and if something happens, well, he'll know in about 1.3 seconds and be inside figuring out what to do. So no, there's no problem w/ the guy taking a mental break for a while (even if that's a bike ride).
Everywhere the President goes...EVERYWHERE...there is a Marine with communications equipment capable of launching nuclear missles at any counrty in the world. How does he ever really get a "mental break"?
Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary
kallend 1,679
QuoteQuote
Why, then do I pay taxes to support FEMA and DHS who's explicit mission is to deal with situations just like this. If not for disasters of this magnitude, what exactly do you think DHS and FEMA are there for?
FEMA is not a first responder. The flow chart would go: local, county, state, federal. This would mean FEMA is the last responder. And as you move down the list from city to state etc, the size and complexities increase and take longer to get going.
Where was the remaining 65% of the LA National Guard? Where were the LA State Police? Where was ANY local or state response? All I saw was the Coast Guard...which is a federal agency by the way.
Why did the City of New Orleans not have a command/communication network in place that could survive the exact disaster that they would be required to respond to?
Why did the Army Corps of Engineers have insufficient funds to strengthen the levees that broke? They had warning in 2001.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,679
QuoteQuoteI wonder how many people who said "We have no way out" could've been evacuated if the mayor or governor had sent these up and down NO's streets last Sat. or Sun.
There were many ways in which people could've saved themselves from the degree of catastrophe they are suffering now.
(See attached pic.)
That picture shows how truely pathetic the city emergency plan really is.... manditory evacuation and so many resorces untapped...
thinkprogress.org/2005/09/02/hurricane-pam/
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
I'm just curious, and this is not a point of arguement, but I'm just seeking knowledge on this aspect of the situation... What makes the federal government responsible for those levees? Are the levees anything like the interstates where funding is provided, but the state is still "responsible" to maintain those interstates? This is something I dont know, and just want a straight forward answer.. I'm not saying the state was responsible for them (atleast not yet 
)
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
)FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Whoa, just found this on the DrudgeReport:
Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00
'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...
Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00
'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...
Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"
jenfly00 0
QuoteI'm just curious, and this is not a point of arguement, but I'm just seeking knowledge on this aspect of the situation... What makes the federal government responsible for those levees? Are the levees anything like the interstates where funding is provided, but the state is still "responsible" to maintain those interstates? This is something I dont know, and just want a straight forward answer.. I'm not saying the state was responsible for them (atleast not yet
The Flood Control Act of 1936 was passed after the flood that devastated Pittsburg. Empowered by that act, the Army Corp of Engineers has officially had the responsibility and authority for flood control nation wide.
http://www.usace.army.mil/public.html#Flood
-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
QuoteQuoteI'm just curious, and this is not a point of arguement, but I'm just seeking knowledge on this aspect of the situation... What makes the federal government responsible for those levees? Are the levees anything like the interstates where funding is provided, but the state is still "responsible" to maintain those interstates? This is something I dont know, and just want a straight forward answer.. I'm not saying the state was responsible for them (atleast not yet
The Flood Control Act of 1936 was passed after the flood that devastated Pittsburg. Empowered by that act, the Army Corp of Engineers has officially had the responsibility and authority for flood control nation wide.
http://www.usace.army.mil/public.html#Flood
Thank you for the information and the link
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
QuoteToday, most Corps constructed flood protection projects are owned by sponsoring cities, towns, and agricultural districts
That is a quote from the above link.. Is this the case with the levees that protected NO?
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Mike111 0
Having read the article from "thinkprocess.org", wouldn't it also be fair to say that a plan never survives contact with the enemy? Such as looting-
Taken from a BBC world news website -
"Medical evacuations from the Superdome stadium have been disrupted after a gun shot was fired at a rescue helicopter"
Moreover, on BBC NEWS 24 this morning, there were individuals and experts who were saying that the reason for this breakdown was that since the 1960's the government has slowly been detaching itself from the lives of its citizens, hence why NOW, 40 years on, there was this confusion over who should act as this detachment has increased over the years.
Therefore, to blame the confusion on the Bush govt alone could be wrong, instead of looking at the fact that this style of detachment has been ongoing for many years. Thus they went on to say that they expected this to happen when such a terrible disaster struck.
One thing they said however was that the citizens have united and helped each other out the best they can.
So the citizens did all they could very well and performed most admirably under such terrible circumstances.
Taken from a BBC world news website -
"Medical evacuations from the Superdome stadium have been disrupted after a gun shot was fired at a rescue helicopter"
Moreover, on BBC NEWS 24 this morning, there were individuals and experts who were saying that the reason for this breakdown was that since the 1960's the government has slowly been detaching itself from the lives of its citizens, hence why NOW, 40 years on, there was this confusion over who should act as this detachment has increased over the years.
Therefore, to blame the confusion on the Bush govt alone could be wrong, instead of looking at the fact that this style of detachment has been ongoing for many years. Thus they went on to say that they expected this to happen when such a terrible disaster struck.
One thing they said however was that the citizens have united and helped each other out the best they can.
So the citizens did all they could very well and performed most admirably under such terrible circumstances.
TheAnvil 0
No no no no no. It's JACKASS - not jackass. 
Debt level by the average consumer is a great problem here in the U.S. - no doubt about it. There is also no doubt about the economy doing a whole lot better now than when GWB inherited it. Not having a recession, you see.
I was more interested in any data on infrastructure funding disparities between the GWB's budgets and those of El Jefe Clintonista. A trend over the last quarter century or so would make for interesting analysis. Lack of such data shows those screaming 'the levees weren't funded! It's GWB's fault!' to be making claims they cannot back up with evidence.
Debt level by the average consumer is a great problem here in the U.S. - no doubt about it. There is also no doubt about the economy doing a whole lot better now than when GWB inherited it. Not having a recession, you see.
I was more interested in any data on infrastructure funding disparities between the GWB's budgets and those of El Jefe Clintonista. A trend over the last quarter century or so would make for interesting analysis. Lack of such data shows those screaming 'the levees weren't funded! It's GWB's fault!' to be making claims they cannot back up with evidence.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
*** So, in short, it's not the President's fault you don't have health insurance, it's your lack of proactiveness.
I own a small business that I operate from my house and I do business with a fair number of people. Since the last factory job I had went to Mexico I had to go on Medicaid and Medicare. I invested into those by way of tax dollars as do everyone else who has ever paid taxes. It is shocking how some people do not wonder what becomes of the money they invest into the government. If you were to invest into any corporation would you not expect a return or would you just be happy to know that someone is driving a fancy car and living high on the hog while nothing trickles down to the investors? I much rather see my investment in this government work for me and everyone else in this country and not spent overseas in places like Iraq. You do not know me yet you think that I sit on my ass expecting a handout. Also I am thinking that you have no idea what healthcare cost and what is required to secure it. There is no insurance that will handle me due to a pre-existing health problem. Insurance companies want healthy people who will live a great long while and hope that they never have to pay out. I fully expect MY GOVERNMENT to help me as I helped the government. I fully expect the government to help every american and do not believe that is an unreasonable expectation. When a government by the people, for the people do not produce then it is a government that is unacceptable and drastic change needs to occur to assure that all americans can expect help to get them back on their feet. If someday you find yourself in a bad way then you will know what I mean. Untill then you are clueless.
I own a small business that I operate from my house and I do business with a fair number of people. Since the last factory job I had went to Mexico I had to go on Medicaid and Medicare. I invested into those by way of tax dollars as do everyone else who has ever paid taxes. It is shocking how some people do not wonder what becomes of the money they invest into the government. If you were to invest into any corporation would you not expect a return or would you just be happy to know that someone is driving a fancy car and living high on the hog while nothing trickles down to the investors? I much rather see my investment in this government work for me and everyone else in this country and not spent overseas in places like Iraq. You do not know me yet you think that I sit on my ass expecting a handout. Also I am thinking that you have no idea what healthcare cost and what is required to secure it. There is no insurance that will handle me due to a pre-existing health problem. Insurance companies want healthy people who will live a great long while and hope that they never have to pay out. I fully expect MY GOVERNMENT to help me as I helped the government. I fully expect the government to help every american and do not believe that is an unreasonable expectation. When a government by the people, for the people do not produce then it is a government that is unacceptable and drastic change needs to occur to assure that all americans can expect help to get them back on their feet. If someday you find yourself in a bad way then you will know what I mean. Untill then you are clueless.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
QuoteWhoa, just found this on the DrudgeReport:
Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00
'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...
I sure am happy that the state did it's part, in accordance with its own disaster plan, very evident by that picture of all those buses flooded out in that parking lot.
I guess that bush and the federal gov't should have been there to make sure those plans were executed by the state like they should have been? 
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
QuoteI had to go on Medicaid and Medicare
Well, I understand more, but yeah, medicaid/medicare sucks. Hence your problem. My suggestion is to do what you can to afford "real" health insurance. I understand it can be difficult, but it's not impossible, and for that reason you can make it happen, whilst it's not the President's fault if you don't.
QuoteYou do not know me yet you think that I sit on my ass expecting a handout
I see/hear it all the time, so it's pretty easy to get that impression, but sorry if I was mistaken.
QuoteAlso I am thinking that you have no idea what healthcare cost and what is required to secure it
You think I jump out of planes and do my job w/o health insurance! Wow, that'd be the dumbest thing ever. So, yes, I know.
QuoteThere is no insurance that will handle me due to a pre-existing health problem
So did you just not think about health insurance UNTIL you found out about your illness? Point being, in hindsight, it would have been good to get "real" insurance before you knew.
QuoteI fully expect MY GOVERNMENT to help me as I helped the government.
I understand that, but they can't do everything for you. They can help for some things, but they can't just give you free medical treatment. That's just not one of the things they do. You knew the rules before you played the game, if you didn't like our health system, you could have gone to Canada or Europe and paid 75% taxes, but then you could have gotten on a 5 yr list to get treated. But hey, hindsight again.
QuoteIf someday you find yourself in a bad way then you will know what I mean. Untill then you are clueless.
True, I'm not in a situation like you, but if something terrible did happen, well, I'll have health insurance at that time, so hopefully I'll be ok.
Health insurance is one of the scariest things IMO... Who says this guy didnt have health insurance when diagnosed? Mabey he had it through work then, and then when his job moved to mexico so did his coverage leaving him between a rock and a hard place... Honestly, health insurance is one of my biggest fears for when I leave the military. I'm used to getting it for free, I've never had it any other way, and I know that it's something that has run alot of people into bad places....
So, what do we do? Some would say the Gov't should provide everything, ... Now we have a health program like some other countries.. Different topics have been brought up on this, and I think it should stay in those threads... There are ups and downs to both systems, many people dont like Gov't sponsered health, some do.. There is no clear answer, and someone is gonna be upset eather way it goes.
This guy is not sitting on his ass, he's working.. I have no problem with the Gov't helping him out.. It's those that truely take handouts and just think that's how it should be as they dont do shit that piss me off.
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
So, what do we do? Some would say the Gov't should provide everything, ... Now we have a health program like some other countries.. Different topics have been brought up on this, and I think it should stay in those threads... There are ups and downs to both systems, many people dont like Gov't sponsered health, some do.. There is no clear answer, and someone is gonna be upset eather way it goes.
This guy is not sitting on his ass, he's working.. I have no problem with the Gov't helping him out.. It's those that truely take handouts and just think that's how it should be as they dont do shit that piss me off.
FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
Mr Bush had is photo taken......... what more could he do?
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
When I lost my job and began looking for health insurance on my own I was in shock to find the cost had risen almost four fold from three years prior (back then I was paying 100/month) and this is without maternity stuff and with a high deductible.
It might be worth your while to look into the health savings accounts-they are accounts held by banks and other institutions and the money you put in is deductible from income like if you had a pretax employer plan. There are many of them, so you might can find one to fit your needs. There are also several major medical plans that cover for hospitalization type events. Depending on your situation, it might be better to go that route.
Dont forget heath expenses (including things such as travel expenses and such) over a certain percent of your income are deductible on your taxes. The IRS website lists out in detail what is allowed. I dont know about you, but I would much rather pay money to a doctor and have it deducted off my income than pay an insurance company, especially when making a lower amount of income (hence the money that does get paid to the docs is a greater percentage).
Anyway, there are many alternatives to the traditional health insurance, make sure you look at the 'big' picture.
Good luck!
It might be worth your while to look into the health savings accounts-they are accounts held by banks and other institutions and the money you put in is deductible from income like if you had a pretax employer plan. There are many of them, so you might can find one to fit your needs. There are also several major medical plans that cover for hospitalization type events. Depending on your situation, it might be better to go that route.
Dont forget heath expenses (including things such as travel expenses and such) over a certain percent of your income are deductible on your taxes. The IRS website lists out in detail what is allowed. I dont know about you, but I would much rather pay money to a doctor and have it deducted off my income than pay an insurance company, especially when making a lower amount of income (hence the money that does get paid to the docs is a greater percentage).
Anyway, there are many alternatives to the traditional health insurance, make sure you look at the 'big' picture.
Good luck!
Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...
What does Canada have to do with this discussion?
The original poster of this thread was talking about Bush, New Orleans, and the war. My response was in relation to all of these. Canada is not.
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