R.I.P. 10,000 Indonesian Christians 1998-2003

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

I was blown away by the stats near the bottom of page. Can this level of government sanctioned Muslim on Christian persecution possibly be true? I'm perplexed why there hasn't been more press coverage, including by The Times.


The London Times

July 25, 2005

Christians face jail for giving treats to children of Muslims

BY NICK MEO IN JAKARTA

THREE Indonesian housewives face up to five years in prison for allegedly trying to lure Muslim children into Christianity at a Sunday School “Happy Week”.

Senior Christian figures claim that the prosecution is politically motivated and part of a campaign of persecution by Islamic fundamentalists against Indonesia’s Christian minority — about 8 per cent of the Muslim-majority population.

The three women faced threats from a yelling mob of 150 fundamentalists during a court appearance in West Java last week. It is claimed that the women were teaching lessons in reading and writing to mixed classes of Christian and Muslim children, taking them on trips to parks and swimming pools, and rewarding them with treats such as pencils for memorising Christian prayers and Bible verses. Many of the alleged offences took place at a special Happy Week earlier this year, although the lessons began in 2003.

A claim of “Christianisation” was made against the women by a chapter of the Indonesian Council of Muslim Clerics, which alleged that they enticed Muslim children to participate and that they had tried to convert the children to Christianity by giving them gifts.

The three, Rebekka Zakaria, Ratna Mala Bangun and Ety Pangesti, have been held in prison since May, charged under Indonesia’s criminal law with using lies, deception or enticement to change a child’s religion. They are evangelical Christians who belong to the Church of David’s Camp in Haurgelis, a strongly Muslim fundamentalist area in West Java which is about 2 per cent Christian.

They say that the Muslim children were friends of Christian youngsters and were attending with the consent of their parents. No attempts were made to convert them, they say.

Bambang Widjaya, the chairman of the Indonesian Council of Evangelical Churches, said: “The main motive behind this is political. Fundamentalists want to use this case to launch a political campaign and rally support for their goal of implementing Sharia (Islamic law).

“The Government is too scared of Muslim voters to intervene. In many areas Muslims are tolerant, but in other areas where there are fundamentalists there is discrimination. Fundamentalists are growing in influence in our country.

“These women have been terrorised by mobs, who have even tried to hit them. They are not scared, however. They are very tough women.”

About 10,000 Christians were killed in Indonesia between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 churches were burnt down by Muslim mobs, according to campaigners. Although religious conflict has eased in recent years campaigners say that about 100 churches have been closed down in the past five years in West Java.

VARIED BELIEFS

* Indonesia is the largest Muslim country: 88 per cent of the 210 million people are Muslim. Others are Christian (8 per cent), Hindu (2) and Buddhist (1)

* Radical groups such as Laskar Jihad and Jemaah Islamiyah want a separate Islamic state in the region, and have attacked Christian churches and villages

* Such clashes killed more than 5,000 in the eastern Maluku islands (1999-2002) and over 3,000 in Central Sulawesi province since 2000

* Christians helping in Aceh after the Boxing Day tsunami were asked to leave for “making Muslims uncomfortable”

Copyright 2005 Times Newspapers Ltd.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1707254,00.html

[kallend 1,679]

Iraq has bigger oil reserves.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Coming to a US state near you.........

No wait!!!!! Bush got elected

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ViperPilot 0]

Just more evidence to support the number of violent Islamists in this world. Profiling's sure not a bad idea. And yes, Indonesia is an incredibly terrible part of the world. As far as press coverage, this just goes to show how the media has its agenda, i.e. destroying the Bush Administration. I'm not saying that's all they show, but they sure conveniently don't cover stories as well that don't support their vendetta against Bush. Indonesia doesn't help the media's case, so they won't cover it. Case closed.

[madscape 0]

So these Fundies should realize that not every country affords you the same rights as the US. So, missionaries should STFU in some places...

[Salsa_John 0]

When was the last time a muslim was imprisioned in the "FREE" world for buying a Q' uran?

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[wmw999 2,175]

They weren't imprisoned for buying a Bible. They were imprisoned for rewarding non-Christian children with Christian-associated rewards, and having them learn pieces of Christian theology.

While I think it's bullshit, that is considerably more offensive than "buying a Bible." Of course, if you're going to be offended, you shouldn't send your children to a school like that. But it might not have been the parent of one of the children.

Stupid stuff like that happens here, too. Doesn't usually lead to jail, but remember the school whose "TWERP day" got changed to "Camo day" because of the horror of boys dressing like girls?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

When was the last time a muslim was imprisioned in the "FREE" world for buying a Q' uran?

If you were to transpose ‘christian’ and ‘muslim’ in the article I wonder whether you could find a parallel pattern between these two religions during the past quarter millennium. Somebody help refresh my recollection, please, the last time rampaging mobs of christians slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent muslims and obliterated thousands of mosques solely to preserve the religion?

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

The Parodic London Times

July 25, 2005

Muslims face jail for giving treats to children of Christians

BY NICK MEO IN JAKARTA

THREE Indonesian housewives face up to five years in prison for allegedly trying to lure Christian children into Islam at a Friday School “Happy Week”.

Senior Muslim figures claim that the prosecution is politically motivated and part of a campaign of persecution by Christian fundamentalists against Indonesia’s Muslim minority — about 8 per cent of the Christian-majority population.

The three women faced threats from a yelling mob of 150 fundamentalists during a court appearance in West Java last week. It is claimed that the women were teaching lessons in reading and writing to mixed classes of Muslim and Christian children, taking them on trips to parks and swimming pools, and rewarding them with treats such as pencils for memorising Islamic prayers and Koran verses. Many of the alleged offences took place at a special Happy Week earlier this year, although the lessons began in 2003.

A claim of “Islamicisation” was made against the women by a chapter of the Indonesian Council of Christian Priests, which alleged that they enticed Christian children to participate and that they had tried to convert the children to Islam by giving them gifts.

The three, Rebekka Zakaria, Ratna Mala Bangun and Ety Pangesti, have been held in prison since May, charged under Indonesia’s criminal law with using lies, deception or enticement to change a child’s religion. They are evangelical Muslims who belong to the Grand Mosque in Haurgelis, a strongly Christian fundamentalist area in West Java which is about 2 per cent Muslim.

They say that the Christian children were friends of Muslim youngsters and were attending with the consent of their parents. No attempts were made to convert them, they say.

Bambang Widjaya, the chairman of the Indonesian Council of Evangelical Mosques, said: “The main motive behind this is political. Fundamentalists want to use this case to launch a political campaign and rally support for their goal of implementing Vatican rule (Christian law).

“The Government is too scared of Christian voters to intervene. In many areas Christians are tolerant, but in other areas where there are fundamentalists there is discrimination. Fundamentalists are growing in influence in our country.

“These women have been terrorised by mobs, who have even tried to hit them. They are not scared, however. They are very tough women.”

About 10,000 Muslims were killed in Indonesia between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 mosques were burnt down by Christian mobs, according to campaigners. Although religious conflict has eased in recent years campaigners say that about 100 mosques have been closed down in the past five years in West Java.

VARIED BELIEFS

* Indonesia is the largest Christian country: 88 per cent of the 210 million people are Christian. Others are Muslim (8 per cent), Hindu (2) and Buddhist (1)

* Radical groups such as Bob Jones Young Apostles and Liberty Baptist Bell Ringers want a separate Christian state in the region, and have attacked Muslim mosques and villages

* Such clashes killed more than 5,000 in the eastern Maluku islands (1999-2002) and over 3,000 in Central Sulawesi province since 2000

* Muslims helping in Aceh after the Ramadan tsunami were asked to leave for “making Christians uncomfortable”

[Salsa_John 0]

let us keep to current events. Though christians did persecute members of other religions in centuries past, where in the current world can you find widespread, organized, goverment sactioned and enforced persecution of members of ANY other religion.

Conversely, it can be shown that there are multiple verifiable instances of widespread, organized, goverment sactioned and enforced persecution of christians.

I would agree with you if there were hundreds of christians strapping bombs on themselves blowing up Mosques (Muslims do this), christians kidnapping muslims and beheading them (Muslims do this), christians rounding up muslims just trying to practice their faith (muslims do this) etc.

let's get real, if the muslims were so very unhappy about all the death, there would be a massive outcry to stop the killing. the Imam's who preach death and destruction with an afterlife with slaves and virgins (Most of the world has abolished slavery) would be become unpopular. It is, however, the case that the preachers of death ARE very popular and are followed by multitudes of people.

While I will agree that no group of people is either totally innocent nor guilty, it does seem that the muslims are doing more than their fare share of killing. We as a world of individuals could band together to create a world of peace.

violence for any reason, except for the direct and immediate defense of your life or another's is wrong. There are better ways.

Quote

Quote

When was the last time a muslim was imprisioned in the "FREE" world for buying a Q' uran?

If you were to transpose ‘christian’ and ‘muslim’ in the article I wonder whether you could find a parallel pattern between these two religions during the past quarter millennium. Somebody help refresh my recollection, please, the last time rampaging mobs of christians slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent muslims and obliterated thousands of mosques solely to preserve the religion?

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[wmw999 2,175]

Well, Christians have bombed churches, particuarly Black churches. Does that make it a Christian thing?

Christians have killed Muslims -- does that make it a Christian thing? Was there a massive outcry by Christian ministers about the violence against Islam after 9/11, or the recent London bombings?

Right now there are a lot of seemingly ignorant violent people who are Muslim, and who say they are committing atrocities in the name of Islam.

Look at some of the Irish unpleasantness and you'll see some of it is said to be in the name of Catholicism or Protestantism, too. That doesn't make it so.

What do you expect -- for the mosques to all form posses? I've heard outcry. Of course, it's not as newsworthy as the original violence.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Salsa_John 0]

like I said no group is totally innocent. where are the christians blowing up disco's and pizza parlors and street markets and dining halls

Where it does happen (Ireland) it has not become a world wide event.

the attacks on muslims after 9/11 were investigated and people were prosecuted. There was an outcry. Ministers politicians and others publicly avocated non-violence and religious tolerance

Currently all hate crimes are investigated and prosecuted in the US, including the burning of black churches

You are note reading what I wrote...

I said organized, state sanctioned and enforced persecution that is wide spread.

Quote

The Parodic London Times

July 25, 2005

Muslims face jail for giving treats to children of Christians

BY NICK MEO IN JAKARTA

THREE Indonesian housewives face up to five years in prison for allegedly trying to lure Christian children into Islam at a Friday School “Happy Week”.

Senior Muslim figures claim that the prosecution is politically motivated and part of a campaign of persecution by Christian fundamentalists against Indonesia’s Muslim minority — about 8 per cent of the Christian-majority population.

The three women faced threats from a yelling mob of 150 fundamentalists during a court appearance in West Java last week. It is claimed that the women were teaching lessons in reading and writing to mixed classes of Muslim and Christian children, taking them on trips to parks and swimming pools, and rewarding them with treats such as pencils for memorising Islamic prayers and Koran verses. Many of the alleged offences took place at a special Happy Week earlier this year, although the lessons began in 2003.

A claim of “Islamicisation” was made against the women by a chapter of the Indonesian Council of Christian Priests, which alleged that they enticed Christian children to participate and that they had tried to convert the children to Islam by giving them gifts.

The three, Rebekka Zakaria, Ratna Mala Bangun and Ety Pangesti, have been held in prison since May, charged under Indonesia’s criminal law with using lies, deception or enticement to change a child’s religion. They are evangelical Muslims who belong to the Grand Mosque in Haurgelis, a strongly Christian fundamentalist area in West Java which is about 2 per cent Muslim.

They say that the Christian children were friends of Muslim youngsters and were attending with the consent of their parents. No attempts were made to convert them, they say.

Bambang Widjaya, the chairman of the Indonesian Council of Evangelical Mosques, said: “The main motive behind this is political. Fundamentalists want to use this case to launch a political campaign and rally support for their goal of implementing Vatican rule (Christian law).

“The Government is too scared of Christian voters to intervene. In many areas Christians are tolerant, but in other areas where there are fundamentalists there is discrimination. Fundamentalists are growing in influence in our country.

“These women have been terrorised by mobs, who have even tried to hit them. They are not scared, however. They are very tough women.”

About 10,000 Muslims were killed in Indonesia between 1998 and 2003 and about 1,000 mosques were burnt down by Christian mobs, according to campaigners. Although religious conflict has eased in recent years campaigners say that about 100 mosques have been closed down in the past five years in West Java.

VARIED BELIEFS

* Indonesia is the largest Christian country: 88 per cent of the 210 million people are Christian. Others are Muslim (8 per cent), Hindu (2) and Buddhist (1)

* Radical groups such as Bob Jones Young Apostles and Liberty Baptist Bell Ringers want a separate Christian state in the region, and have attacked Muslim mosques and villages

* Such clashes killed more than 5,000 in the eastern Maluku islands (1999-2002) and over 3,000 in Central Sulawesi province since 2000

* Muslims helping in Aceh after the Ramadan tsunami were asked to leave for “making Christians uncomfortable”

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

If you were to transpose ‘christian’ and ‘muslim’ in the article I wonder whether you could find a parallel pattern between these two religions during the past quarter millennium. Somebody help refresh my recollection, please, the last time rampaging mobs of christians slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent muslims and obliterated thousands of mosques solely to preserve the religion?

Bueller?

[wmw999 2,175]

It wasn't just to "preserve the religion" but I seem to recall a little altercation between the largely Christian Serbs and the largely Muslim Croats a few years ago.

I'm sure I'll be shouted down on how this is totally different and it's just my liberal blinders but, well, I'll just bet there was some religious aspersion-casting going on.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Salsa_John 0]

How bout this?

Just watching fox news and they were reporting on the British terror suspects. They were talking about how there is a lot of Muslim support for these people in London.

They had a video in fact of some muslim guy saying this.
What the bombers did was bad. They should go after busses and the tube where people go to work and try to make a living. They should have bombed Parliment or Downing Street.

These MORONs are obviously not afraid, and it is no wonder all suspects haven't been found. These are British Citicens supporting bombing their own government offices!!!!
The suspects will not be found and this shit will continue because there are enough shit heads like this guy out there to support them and hide them.

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[MC208B 0]

Wendy, the BIG message from the Lord is to love one another. There are rotten people from all religions I'm sure, the muslims seem to be embracing violence more than the others tho.

[wmw999 2,175]

I've posted before my thoughts on that; I agree with your assessment about love being the point. However, too many people are too anxious to prove how much more loving they are, and to do so by pointing out the specks in others' eyes.

Lets not blame it on Muslims. Lets blame it on individuals, and figure out what makes them different from the vast majority of Muslims who don't do those things.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Three Schoolgirls Beheaded in Indonesia

Saturday, October 29, 2005

JAKARTA, Indonesia — Unidentified assailants attacked a group of high school girls on Saturday in Indonesia's tense province of Central Sulawesi, beheading three and seriously wounding a fourth, police said.

The students from a private Christian high school were ambushed while walking through a cocoa plantation in Poso Kota subdistrict on their way to class, police Maj. Riky Naldo said. The rural area is close to the provincial capital of Poso, about 1,000 miles northeast of the Indonesian capital Jakarta.

He said the heads of the three dead girls were found several miles from their bodies.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation. But Central Sulawesi has a roughly equal number of Muslims and Christians. The province on Sulawesi island was the scene of a bloody sectarian war in 2001-2002 that killed around 1,000 people from both communities.

At the time, beheadings, burnings and other atrocities were common.

A government-mediated truce ended the conflict in early 2002 but since then, there have been a series of bomb attacks and assassinations targeting Christians. A market attack in the predominantly Christian town of Poso killed 22 people in May.

Christian leaders have repeatedly criticized the authorities in Jakarta for allegedly not doing enough to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.

The Christian-Muslim conflict in Sulawesi was an extension of a wider sectarian war in nearby Maluku archipelago in which up to 9,000 people died between 1999 and 2002.

Soon after it erupted in 1999, the Maluku conflict intensified with the arrival of volunteers belonging to Laskar Jihad a newly created militia from Indonesia's main island of Java that was supported by hardline elements in the security forces.

Analysts and diplomats accused senior army commanders of funding and training the militia, which was hurriedly disbanded following the terrorist attacks on the tourist island of Bali in 2002 that killed more than 200 people — including 88 foreigners. Some former militiamen are believed to have moved to Poso.

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173913,00.html


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[mikkey 0]

What I find so interesting about this thread is that it demonstrates the way Americans see the world in black and white. No wonder US foreign policy is less then “smart”.

Indonesia is an enormously complex issue. I live in neighbouring Australia, have spent quite some time in the country and have a Christian Indonesian working for me.

It is soooo easy taking some news headlines to run some agendas.

People need to understand that Indonesia is spread across an archipelago of thousands of islands between Asia and Australia with the world's largest Muslim population.

Ethnically it is highly diverse, with more than 300 local languages. The people range from rural hunter-gatherers to a modern urban elite.

Indonesia has seen unprecedented turmoil in recent years, facing first the Asian financial crisis, then the fall of President Suharto after 32 years in office, the first free elections since the 1960s, the loss of East Timor, independence demands from restive provinces, bloody inter-ethnic and religious conflict and a devastating tsunami.

The current President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono is trying very hard to create a democratic state without ending up in civil war.

This is not just a question of Christians having problems. There are huge internal conflicts between ethnic groups, between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims and major social problems. In Ambon, which is the centre of the conflict of Christians and Muslims – there have not just been bad things done to Christians – it has also happened the other way around. The key issues are social – the economic problems and growing poverty – especially in the rural areas – are a hotbed that extremists are trying to take advantage of.

The worst thing you can do is to simplify all these issues to a Muslims vs. Christians issue. Unfortunately this is what seems to be done here. Firstly the western world needs to support the current President (and luckily Australia is doing just this) – things are actually moving in the right direction in regard to democracy and counter terrorism. Secondly don’t try to boil this down to some Muslims vs. Christians thing – this will only help the extremists.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

As you’re both local and expert please post similar examples of reported Indonesian Christian on Muslim violence, as this will provide us with a basis of comparison.

For example, you should post a story where Indonesian Christians have beheaded Muslim schoolchildren and deposited the heads several miles away as intimidation.

You don’t even have to blame Israel or the United States for the violence, just post the equivalent facts.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[mikkey 0]

Shows you did not (or did not want) understand my post. Problems in Indonesia are not simply about Christians vs. Muslims FFS. Here is an expample:

Kalimantan - the Indonesian part of the island of Borneo - has suffered from a number of outbreaks of inter-ethnic violence in recent years.

In the late 1990s, long-running tensions between the indigenous Dayak people and migrants from the island of Madura finally spilled over in a series of violent attacks.

In 2001, hundreds of people were killed and tens of thousands of Madurese were forced to flee the island, pursued by enraged Dayaks.

Tensions between the two communities had been rising for decades, in the wake of an influx of Madurese under the central government's transmigration programme.

Transmigration started at the beginning of 20th Century, but it was not until President Suharto came to power in 1966 that large numbers of people began to arrive in Kalimantan from other parts of Indonesia.

By 2000, transmigrants made up 21% of the population in Central Kalimantan, and the demographics of the region had changed dramatically.

The Dayaks resented the increased competition for land and jobs, and many felt the newcomers were unfairly favoured at the expense of the indigenous community.

New laws gave the government power to reallocate land for commercial logging, mining and the construction of plantations for palm-oil and paper production.

Non-Muslim Dayaks form the majority of the population. Muslim Madurese arrived in the 1950s and 60s Migrants - especially the Madurese - assumed control of much of these industries.

The Madurese were not the largest migrant group in Kalimantan, but they were the principal target of Dayak anger because of their greater wealth and the long-held stereotypes each group held about the other.

Under President Suharto's regime, the military suppressed any attempts at violence between the two groups.

But after his fall from power in 1998, the central government intervened much less in local matters, encouraging the Dayaks to take matters into their own hands.

Violence erupted in West Kalimantan in 1996-1997, and again in 1999.

But the worst incidents happened in February 2001, when at least 500 Madurese were killed in the Central Kalimantan timber town of Sampit.

Some of the dead bodies were decapitated in a ritual reminiscent of the Dayak's head-hunting past.

More than 100,000 Madurese were forced to flee the area to escape the massacre.

The violence spread out into other areas of the province, and by April 2001 almost the entire Madurese community had left Central Kalimantan.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

Another example:

Indonesians living in the Moluccas are fearful of a repeat of the violence which blighted the island chain before a peace deal was struck in 2002.

In the three years before the peace accord, an estimated 5,000 people were killed and 500,000 displaced to other areas of Indonesia.

It was not always this way though. For many years, Christian and Muslim communities lived peacefully together through traditional village alliances.

But resentments had probably been simmering beneath the surface for some time before violence erupted in 1999.

Muslims believed that Christians were given the best jobs in the civil service - a legacy, perhaps, of the fact that under Dutch colonial rule, Christians were offered better education.

Christians feared that an influx of Muslims from other parts of Indonesia, as part of a nationwide transmigration project, would make them a vulnerable minority. 54% of inhabitants are Muslim and 44% are Christian.

These differences were suppressed under the authoritarian rule of former President Suharto. But after his downfall in 1998, the fault lines were exposed.


In January 1999, violence finally erupted - sparked by a minor traffic accident on the island of Ambon.

The conflict quickly spread to the surrounding islands, and thousands of people were killed in the ensuing mayhem.

Outside agents - including Islamic militant groups such as Laskar Jihad, as well as armed forces from Jakarta - exacerbated the carnage still further.

The violence continued throughout 2000, but died down by mid-2001.

A peace accord was signed in February 2002, and both sides then set about rebuilding their lives and restoring order.

For a while it seemed that the peace deal was working.

But in April 2004, more than 40 people died in clashes sparked by an illegal rally by a Christian gang in Ambon.

With the renewal of sporadic acts of violence, observers have expressed scepticism about the peace deal's long-term success.



Edit: So I could post a history of violence for a number of Indonesian provinces. The reasons are plenty - but most have their roots in social and ethnic issues - some going back to colonial times others to the the forced transmigration of the 1960's. Violence and cruelty has occured on all sides. Faith issues have played a part - but are only part of a complex issue.

But this seems too hard to understand for some people here who only understand the "good guys" vs. "bad guys" kind of things. Real world is not that easy...

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

I unambiguously requested analogous examples.

You haven't provided a single supportive example despite you holding yourself out as being both local and expert.

Please do so if you wish your position to be considered relevant in this thread.

Otherwise you will be understood to be an apologist or a propagandist, each of which may be congruent with your true aims.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Otherwise you will be understood to be an apologist or a propagandist

Funny, I was thinking the same thing after reading your posts.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

Funny, I was thinking the same thing after reading your posts.

I have provided factual examples. Nobody has provided a single pertinent contra-example. Believe your own bullshit if you will, it's recognized as such by the rest of us.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!