GeordieSkydiver 0 #51 November 16, 2004 QuoteI don´t see contractors as innocent civilians, or at least not innocent. They are supporting the war effort. Besides the U.S military is also killing innocent civilians It sounds like terrorism because that is how you can justify the collateral damage. If they had planes, tanks, and more military equipment, i asure you they wouln´t be doing those things. The Insurgents kill innocent Iraqi civillians everyday. They dont care who they kill, cause it all makes the allieds look bad. Thats the good thing about terrorism, they kill people its your fault for not doing more, they kill troops, they are happy. The allied forces would never knowingly kill innocents, but its war, and innocent people get killed and that sucks. These guys are killing people queuing for petrol, food, jobs... Your judging a situation on only what you've read in the press and seen on TV. US/allied bad, Iraqi/Arab with a RPG/car bomb/sharp knife the victim. All is not black and white. The way I see it, he had what he thought was maybe a split second to stop a possible guy faking death from injuring him or his buddies. He made a choice, right or wrong he did it, and he is alive now. He made the right choice.Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #52 November 16, 2004 Here's a newsflash for you: YOU CANNOT HAVE ZERO CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN WAR Another insightful newsflash: THE INSURGENTS CHOOSING AN URBAN BATTLEGROUND ARE THEMSELVES TO BLAME FOR ANY INCREASE IN CIVILIAN CASUALTIES Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,155 #53 November 16, 2004 Another newsflash: We started the war. If they don't play by "our" rules, nobody but us thinks it's their fault. And that matters because someday we may have to cooperate with all these people. Worse yet, we may need them to cooperate with us. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #54 November 16, 2004 Quote Why are you putting in the same sentence Taliban, the PLO, and Iraqi insurgents? Taliban terrorist should be eliminated, but Iraqui insurgents are trying to get Irak back from the U.S, so i wouldn´t label them as terrorists, as many of us would fight an opressing force that tries to take over our country. Many people seem to think that Enemy equals Terrorist. Would you kill innocent civillians? Booby trap dead comrades? Wave a white flag then open fire? Car bomb government officals from opposing parties? Sounds like terrorism to me. The insurgents refers to the Fighters from OUTSIDE of Iraq which have moved in from Syria, Iran etc.... So, no the comparison is not the same. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #55 November 16, 2004 As far as I'm concerned - they can't die fast enough. ***Quote Let me guess and I only say this because it is you. By they do you mean all brown people? You see I have been sitting here thinking should I even replay to you. I already ignored one person who I know has a problem with Middle Easterners. To be honest I don’t see you as any different for reasons you already know. It would be like trying to explain to the leader of the KKK that African Americans are people also. A mind closed is very hard to open.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeordieSkydiver 0 #56 November 16, 2004 Storm77, Can you just clarify that last statement? you quoted me and someone else. Are you saying they 'are' terrorists, or they 'are not' terrorists?Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #57 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteIn the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing. A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead." The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now." I think that pretty much shows that U.S marine cowardice and that he is guilty of murder. Now the U.S military has a very good chance to get some distance from this incident by discharging that bastard from the army with dishonor and give him beetwen 20 years and lifetime of jail. Somehow i have the feeling he will get just a slap in the hand as usual. How dare you accuse a Marine of being a coward, while you sit happily on your @ss at home in front of a computer probably making a decent living, and neglecting your freedoms, there are men and women out there in a foreign country giving their lives so you can have the life you live. there was absolutely nothing wrong with what that marine did, he broke no laws, according to the geneva convention you are allowed to shoot people as you clear an objective even if they are no longer in the fight, so long as they are not surrendering and you have not passed them yet. Make me explain that a little better for you. I shoot a buch of insurgents in the street, they go down, my team and i pick up and move to clear the ground they were holding, as i'm clearing that ground i can put another round in the insurgents to ensure they are dead, and can't shoot us in the back, as long as they are not surrendering. once i step past them they are no longer combatants and i can't kill them unless they manage to present an immedeate threat(ie picks up a weapon and fires again). those marines hadn't cleared that objoctive yet, they had been taking fire from that building and those insurgents were probably injured in that fire, therefore they were still targets. God help the man that disrespects one of our countries heroes the way you did while they are in arms reach of me. Because just as I've personally fought to protect that freedom of speech I wouldn't hesitate for a second to take it away, in my own manner.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,155 #58 November 16, 2004 Whoa there -- he's Spanish. Last I heard, we weren't fighting for them. We're fighting for the Iraqis, and, I guess, in a surrogate sort of manner, for ourselves. "Kill them all and let God sort them out" looks a lot better on a T-shirt than on a real news header. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #59 November 16, 2004 Here is a news flash for you. This country was founded on dishonorable war tactics. We invented guerilla warfare at a time where it was considered the wrong thing to do. Remember fighting the British? Here is another news flash When a stronger army is taking over the weaker army usually will result to any tactic for its survival. To Geordie Skydiver If you feel he did the right thing by killing a man who did not pose a threat then I feel sad for you. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and you saw a wounded US special forces solder get shot in the back of the head, and have the killer say well he is dead now. I bet you wouldn’t be so quick to say he did the right thing then would you.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #60 November 16, 2004 QuoteStorm77, Can you just clarify that last statement? you quoted me and someone else. Are you saying they 'are' terrorists, or they 'are not' terrorists? What I was saying is: The people refered to as insurgents are technically the people who infitrated the country from outside of Iraq. Now as far as terrorist go, a terrorist is any fighter using "terrorist" tactics in fighting the battle. ie - Using human shields waving white flags and attcking whe the enemy gets close. booby trapping dead bodies. Faking dead and then shooting the enemy in the back. etc....etc.... ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeordieSkydiver 0 #61 November 16, 2004 QuoteHow dare you accuse a Marine of being a coward, while you sit happily on your @ss at home in front of a computer probably making a decent living, and neglecting your freedoms, there are men and women out there in a foreign country giving their lives so you can have the life you live. Couldn't put it better myself. As I said earlier. You cant know what its like until you've been there in that situation. So dont diss those who allow the majority to sleep soundly at night.Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #62 November 16, 2004 ...Spain was scared off by Al Qaeda and went home. [NOTE--THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK- IT IS DOCUMENTED TRUTH] The people of Spain gave up their voice in this debate when they saw fit to no longer be involved... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #63 November 16, 2004 guerilla warfare is different from terrorist tactics. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #64 November 16, 2004 it could be said the US uses guerilla warfare right now. We don't exactly line up and fire at eachother anymore!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #65 November 16, 2004 At that time it was looked down on and was considered dishonorable.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,155 #66 November 16, 2004 Quoteguerilla warfare is different from terrorist tactics. Depends on whose side you're on. Some of the insurgents are, in fact, guerrillas. Some are careless guerrillas. And some are terrorists, who don't really care whom they kill. Read up on the Maquis. They killed innocents, and few would deny that they are guerrillas. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #67 November 16, 2004 yes true it was. But even they did not resort to dragging out woman and children as shields!!!! A huge difference between guerilla and terrorist tactics. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #68 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteguerilla warfare is different from terrorist tactics. Depends on whose side you're on. Some of the insurgents are, in fact, guerrillas. Some are careless guerrillas. And some are terrorists, who don't really care whom they kill. Read up on the Maquis. They killed innocents, and few would deny that they are guerrillas. Wendy W. If they intentionally killed innocents for the sake of striking fear in the population, i wouldn't call them guerillas, i would call them Terrorists ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #69 November 16, 2004 As I said earlier. You cant know what its like until you've been there in that situation. So dont diss those who allow the majority to sleep soundly at night. Good point, seems everyone thats never been put in that situation has this insatiable need to judge, and say how what these people are doing wrong when they themselves have no clue what emotions are going through a man in combat. How's this everyone in this forum who has judged this brave marine raise your hand if you've had an iraqi try and kill you. My hand is raised, anyone else, I had no clue how i'd react when put in a situatoin like that til i was staring down a barrel. Now everyone with your hands down stop passing judgement on a man who serves a noble purpose in life.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeordieSkydiver 0 #56 November 16, 2004 Storm77, Can you just clarify that last statement? you quoted me and someone else. Are you saying they 'are' terrorists, or they 'are not' terrorists?Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #57 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteIn the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing. A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead." The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now." I think that pretty much shows that U.S marine cowardice and that he is guilty of murder. Now the U.S military has a very good chance to get some distance from this incident by discharging that bastard from the army with dishonor and give him beetwen 20 years and lifetime of jail. Somehow i have the feeling he will get just a slap in the hand as usual. How dare you accuse a Marine of being a coward, while you sit happily on your @ss at home in front of a computer probably making a decent living, and neglecting your freedoms, there are men and women out there in a foreign country giving their lives so you can have the life you live. there was absolutely nothing wrong with what that marine did, he broke no laws, according to the geneva convention you are allowed to shoot people as you clear an objective even if they are no longer in the fight, so long as they are not surrendering and you have not passed them yet. Make me explain that a little better for you. I shoot a buch of insurgents in the street, they go down, my team and i pick up and move to clear the ground they were holding, as i'm clearing that ground i can put another round in the insurgents to ensure they are dead, and can't shoot us in the back, as long as they are not surrendering. once i step past them they are no longer combatants and i can't kill them unless they manage to present an immedeate threat(ie picks up a weapon and fires again). those marines hadn't cleared that objoctive yet, they had been taking fire from that building and those insurgents were probably injured in that fire, therefore they were still targets. God help the man that disrespects one of our countries heroes the way you did while they are in arms reach of me. Because just as I've personally fought to protect that freedom of speech I wouldn't hesitate for a second to take it away, in my own manner.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,155 #58 November 16, 2004 Whoa there -- he's Spanish. Last I heard, we weren't fighting for them. We're fighting for the Iraqis, and, I guess, in a surrogate sort of manner, for ourselves. "Kill them all and let God sort them out" looks a lot better on a T-shirt than on a real news header. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #59 November 16, 2004 Here is a news flash for you. This country was founded on dishonorable war tactics. We invented guerilla warfare at a time where it was considered the wrong thing to do. Remember fighting the British? Here is another news flash When a stronger army is taking over the weaker army usually will result to any tactic for its survival. To Geordie Skydiver If you feel he did the right thing by killing a man who did not pose a threat then I feel sad for you. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and you saw a wounded US special forces solder get shot in the back of the head, and have the killer say well he is dead now. I bet you wouldn’t be so quick to say he did the right thing then would you.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #60 November 16, 2004 QuoteStorm77, Can you just clarify that last statement? you quoted me and someone else. Are you saying they 'are' terrorists, or they 'are not' terrorists? What I was saying is: The people refered to as insurgents are technically the people who infitrated the country from outside of Iraq. Now as far as terrorist go, a terrorist is any fighter using "terrorist" tactics in fighting the battle. ie - Using human shields waving white flags and attcking whe the enemy gets close. booby trapping dead bodies. Faking dead and then shooting the enemy in the back. etc....etc.... ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeordieSkydiver 0 #61 November 16, 2004 QuoteHow dare you accuse a Marine of being a coward, while you sit happily on your @ss at home in front of a computer probably making a decent living, and neglecting your freedoms, there are men and women out there in a foreign country giving their lives so you can have the life you live. Couldn't put it better myself. As I said earlier. You cant know what its like until you've been there in that situation. So dont diss those who allow the majority to sleep soundly at night.Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #62 November 16, 2004 ...Spain was scared off by Al Qaeda and went home. [NOTE--THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK- IT IS DOCUMENTED TRUTH] The people of Spain gave up their voice in this debate when they saw fit to no longer be involved... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #63 November 16, 2004 guerilla warfare is different from terrorist tactics. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #64 November 16, 2004 it could be said the US uses guerilla warfare right now. We don't exactly line up and fire at eachother anymore!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #65 November 16, 2004 At that time it was looked down on and was considered dishonorable.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,155 #66 November 16, 2004 Quoteguerilla warfare is different from terrorist tactics. Depends on whose side you're on. Some of the insurgents are, in fact, guerrillas. Some are careless guerrillas. And some are terrorists, who don't really care whom they kill. Read up on the Maquis. They killed innocents, and few would deny that they are guerrillas. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #67 November 16, 2004 yes true it was. But even they did not resort to dragging out woman and children as shields!!!! A huge difference between guerilla and terrorist tactics. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #68 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteguerilla warfare is different from terrorist tactics. Depends on whose side you're on. Some of the insurgents are, in fact, guerrillas. Some are careless guerrillas. And some are terrorists, who don't really care whom they kill. Read up on the Maquis. They killed innocents, and few would deny that they are guerrillas. Wendy W. If they intentionally killed innocents for the sake of striking fear in the population, i wouldn't call them guerillas, i would call them Terrorists ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #69 November 16, 2004 As I said earlier. You cant know what its like until you've been there in that situation. So dont diss those who allow the majority to sleep soundly at night. Good point, seems everyone thats never been put in that situation has this insatiable need to judge, and say how what these people are doing wrong when they themselves have no clue what emotions are going through a man in combat. How's this everyone in this forum who has judged this brave marine raise your hand if you've had an iraqi try and kill you. My hand is raised, anyone else, I had no clue how i'd react when put in a situatoin like that til i was staring down a barrel. Now everyone with your hands down stop passing judgement on a man who serves a noble purpose in life.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #70 November 16, 2004 Last I checked we do have a volunteer army right? Well kind of volunteer I mean they do get paid and not forced to take the job right? I don’t think patriotism is an excuse for blindness do you? I also don’t think just because someone is a Marine they are above all laws. Being in the armed forces doesn’t automatically make you a saint or a good person you do realize that right?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeordieSkydiver 0 #71 November 16, 2004 QuoteIf you feel he did the right thing by killing a man who did not pose a threat then I feel sad for you. I wonder how you would feel if the tables were turned and you saw a wounded US special forces solder get shot in the back of the head, and have the killer say well he is dead now. I bet you wouldn’t be so quick to say he did the right thing then would you. Firstly, you have no idea wether or not that young Marine thought that guy was a threat or not. I'm sick of saying 'you dont know'. Secondly, I didn't say 'he did the right thing' I said 'he made the right choice' The right choice being the one that kept him alive, no-one knows the outcome if he hadn't of shot the guy. Its easy to be judgemental when your 4000 miles from there and safe. If a US special forces soldier got shot in the head, I'd be pissed, because it probably meant someone made the wrong choice and didn't eliminate a potential threat.Lee _______________________________ In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy? http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #72 November 16, 2004 Quoteyes true it was. But even they did not resort to dragging out woman and children as shields!!!! A huge difference between guerilla and terrorist tactics. I'm not sure what your opinion on guerillas in general is so please don't take this as a knock at you, but guerillas aren't always bad like people make them out to be. We wouldn't have taken northern iraq had it not been for guerillas. the peshmerga were guerillas, they were kurdish militiants, who followed our special forces teams against the iraqis because we did not have a large number of conventional forces in that part of the country. i've worked with the pesh and they are some of the most dedicated fighters i have ever met.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #73 November 16, 2004 Christopher What do you call an army who has invaded your country for a reason that does not exist? How would you feel if this army told you to move out of your home cause there is terrorists in it and they want to bomb it to make sure there all dead? Also consider the terrorists this army is referring to are fighting this invading army.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #74 November 16, 2004 QuoteChristopher What do you call an army who has invaded your country for a reason that does not exist? . Loaded question I refuse to answer. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #75 November 16, 2004 QuoteAmericans sleep soundly in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. And I truely apreciate that. I do worry though that there are men who will exploit this willingness for causes that are not worth dying for. Too many have already died, and more will before this mess is done. Be careful out there.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
