FERTILIZER CONTROL *NOW*!

[Douva 0]

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Well, what do you know -- the NBC Nightly News does a story just now on how that evil substance, ammonium nitrate, can -- *GASP* -- be purchased without a background check!!

So who do you think they showed a sound bite of, calling for what, essentially, is "fertilizer control"?
UpChuck Schumer.

Needless to say, I'm not surprised he's the poster-boy for more bureaucratic "_____-control" from big, useless government.

What a shitstain that man is.

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Anybody else notice after the Oklahoma City federal building bombing how the news media made such a big deal out of the fact that both fertilizer and diesel fuel were found on the McVeigh farm? Imagine that--fertilizer and diesel fuel on a farm!

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[AggieDave 6]

Well, aparently if fertilizer required a background check it would keep it out of the hands of criminals, just like guns and how no criminals have those due to the background checks...

please read below:


http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/176795-2914-092.html

***State farms see rise in meth-linked thefts
Thieves from outside Indiana increasingly steal their fertilizer to make illicit drug.


Johnson County farmer Jud Vaught shows a hose left behind by thieves who used it to siphon anhydrous ammonia from his 15,000-gallon tanks. Police have told Vaught that the location of his 1,450-acre farm has been posted on the Internet by meth dealers. -- Gary Moore / The Star
By Paul Bird
[email protected]
September 7, 2004


Johnson County farmer Jud Vaught is amassing a pretty good collection of wrenches, hoses and flashlights.

Such tools are left on his 1,450-acre farm by people trying to steal anhydrous ammonia, a fertilizer used by farmers -- and a key ingredient in methamphetamine.

The stimulant can be smoked, snorted, ingested or injected. It elevates levels of dopamine in the brain, enhancing mood and giving users a sense of energy and confidence.

Vaught's farm has been hit by dozens of thieves in the past few years, and he's fed up with finding discarded propane tanks and other debris on his property.

It's a growing problem for farmers in Indiana. Other states are cracking down on meth by increasing farm security or enacting tougher laws. That, in turn, is driving meth dealers to Indiana to find anhydrous ammonia, law enforcement officials say. As the problem has worsened, Indiana has begun to act, forming a task force to recommend solutions. The panel's suggestions will be announced next month.

Crossing state lines

The spillover phenomenon is not confined to Indiana.

Steve Johnson, executive director of the Indiana Prosecuting Attorneys Council, said that when Idaho cracked down on meth supplies, the problem gravitated to Montana. When Oklahoma moved cold medicine -- another ingredient in meth -- behind drugstore counters, Texas saw an increase in illegal activity in its drugstores.

"Everyone, nationally, is struggling with this," Johnson said.

Shelby County Prosecutor R. Kent Apsley said he's seen a steady stream of thieves from Kentucky, Missouri and other states.

"Since January 1, 2003, we've got 30 cases, and a lot of them are from Kentucky," Apsley said. "We have caught the same groups of guys. They would be out on bond, and the same group is back up here stealing. They must pass around little maps of where the co-ops are."

Apsley is on the mark. Police have told Vaught that the location of his farm has been posted on the Internet by meth dealers.

Meth labs are a growing and dangerous occurrence across the state. The drug is easy to make, usually requiring only household chemicals and over-the-counter medicines.

Indiana State Police 1st Sgt. David Bursten said the department's technicians dismantled 614 meth labs from Jan. 1 through July 12. He said local police probably took care of another 100 labs, a figure that puts Indiana ahead of the record pace set last year when authorities shut down 1,260 labs.

That figure is up from four meth labs seized in 1995.

"It is a rural issue, a farming issue," Bursten said. "As other areas start clamping down, the abusers seek out other areas for anhydrous."

Last week two people arrested in Morgan County had anhydrous ammonia and other materials in their trunk. Last month, Shelby County authorities arrested two groups of men, one from Missouri, one from Kentucky, on meth-related charges. Apsley said he's in contact with prosecutors in Kentucky so frequently that "we are on a first-name basis."

The problem is most severe in the southwest quarter of Indiana. Roughly two-thirds of the meth lab busts in 2003 occurred there. The attraction: wide availability of anhydrous ammonia.

"Because we grow more corn, we use more anhydrous than they do in Kentucky," Apsley said. "I think we are the closest area where anhydrous is readily available."

Johnson County Sheriff's Detective Duane Burgess notes that the terrain in parts of Kentucky has more hills and less farmland.

Suspects have told Burgess anhydrous is easier to get in Indiana.

"They said farmers use anhydrous in Kentucky, but not like we do here," Burgess said. "We've watched them (thieves) walk several miles across fields to get it." The problem also is being driven by crackdowns in other states. Kentucky, Missouri and Iowa, for example, all have toughened sentencing and encouraged farmers to protect their chemicals.

Penalties slow thefts

In Missouri, harsher penalties for stealing anhydrous ammonia and increased security by farmers and retailers slowed thefts in a state that as recently as 2002 led the nation in discovered meth labs -- with 2,788.

The Missouri Farm Bureau worked with police to pass laws that made it a Class B felony for unlawful release of ammonia. If there is a death or serious injury, it's a Class A felony, said Garrett Hawkins, Missouri Farm Bureau's director of national legislative programs. A Class A felony conviction in Missouri carries a 10- to 30-year prison term.

In Indiana, by comparison, anyone caught stealing anhydrous ammonia faces a theft charge and up to three years in prison if convicted.

Kentucky State Police Capt. Brad Bates said his state was hit with a wave of anhydrous ammonia thefts about three years ago.

"A lot of our co-ops and larger farming operations have taken extreme security measures," Bates said. "They've chained up and fenced everything in. Some of the larger sites have hired security officers."

The Iowa Farm Bureau has worked with farmers to eliminate them as easy targets.

"There were times when farmers would just transport tanks to a field and leave them a day or two until a farmer got there to work," said Aaron Putze, an Iowa Farm Bureau spokesman. "Those days are long over."

Missouri cracked down when its meth problem mushroomed. Now that scenario is playing out in Indiana, and the state is working to catch up.

The state's 60,000 farmers are taking precautions, said Kathleen Dutro, spokeswoman for Indiana Farm Bureau. Hoosier farmers are being urged to lock anhydrous ammonia tanks and keep them out of sight.

Vaught, the Johnson County farmer, bought locks for his 15,000-gallon tanks. He parks an empty tank -- a decoy -- on the property to discourage thieves.

He also installed lighting to discourage late-night thefts, but the culprits have started tapping his anhydrous supplies at dawn.

"The lights won't signal anyone at that hour," said Vaught, 50. "They seem to know when the police are changing shifts and the school buses aren't coming."

His workers also make a point to check the tanks frequently.

"My bottles are close to the road and that means there's more traffic to watch for, and more people can see it," he said.

The General Assembly has gotten involved as well. This spring, lawmakers passed a bill creating the Methamphetamine Abuse Task Force, charged with finding ways of reducing the drug's effect on society.

The task force includes police officers, court officials, doctors, addiction experts, educators, grocers, pharmacists and people in the farming, hardware and propane gas industries. State Police Superintendent Melvin J. Carraway is the task force's chairman.

"They are looking at everything from preventing the abuses to rehabilitating the abusers," said State Police Lt. Col. Mike Medler, head of the bureau of criminal investigations.

The task force held public meetings last month and is holding two more this month, including a meeting Wednesday. The task force is expected to submit its recommendations by Oct. 31.

Johnson, of the Indiana Prosecuting Attorneys Council, thinks cold medications used to make to meth should be restricted.

Some cold and allergy medicines contain pseudoephedrine, an ingredient in meth. Nearly a dozen states have laws restricting the sale of such medicines. Oklahoma enacted a law this spring reclassifying the drugs as controlled substances. That means the drugs can be sold only in pharmacies, and customers must show an ID.

Bartholomew County Sheriff Kenny Whipker, who calls I-65 "one-stop shopping" for meth dealers, says something needs to be done.

"All the chemicals are cheap and readily available. It's cheaper than cocaine, and the high lasts a lot longer," he said. "This is a battle, a war we are probably not going to win."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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NH4NO3 is plenty dangerous on its own too.

Would you mind being intellectually honest with us for a moment and address the RELATIVE INHERENT DANGEROUSNESS of diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate?

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PS most of the silly regulations we have in place since 9/11 are the product of the asinine right.

Please specify at least four "silly regulations" that
a) came from the asinine right specifically
b) we are confronted with in our day-to-day lives

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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>are you really going to focus on that when dozens of others
>who were Democrats voted FOR it?!

Not at all; you were just wrong when you said "all of them." I will readily agree that most democrats and all republicans voted for this bill. Like I said, fear is a powerful motivator.

But you made it very clear that you were blaming the REPUBLICANS for it, specifically.

What difference does it make if the writers of the bill were Republicans, when in the end the people who made it law were the Republicans and most of the Democrats? Why do you fail so conspicuously to hold them responsible for their part, bill?

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>By the way, how DID those darned Republicans come off the peace and
> prosperity of Bill Clinton and end up winning a majority of BOTH HOUSES
> of Congress, bill, if their party's ideas are so out of step with those of the
> American public?

Somehow I have a feeling that if a democrat wins any election, you will explain it away by saying that the people were deceived by their lies, whereas with a republican you will explain it as the people wanted a change and were intelligent enough to vote for it.

You again fail to answer my question.
And you make it reeeeeally obvious.
How did the Republicans gain control if the American people so disagree with them, bill? They took over both houses of Congress in '96, and took the presidency and kept both houses in 2000. How'd they do it, bill, when everyone knows the Republicans are so out-of-step with mainstream America? Why won't you answer direct questions?

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It's really pretty simple. You have stated you are a one-issue voter. The Patriot Act II will do far more to keep you from owning the guns you want than anything else that's being talked about now. If you want Patriot II, vote for the administration that gave you Patriot I.

That's crap. The Democrat-driven "AWB II" will do far more damage to the RKBA than anything else, and you know it. They're looking to ban just about all semi-auto long guns, and ammunition as well.

You just don't want to back away from your folly that the APA I and/or II are so dangerous to liberty.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[billvon 2,435]

>But you made it very clear that you were blaming the REPUBLICANS for it, specifically.

Nope, didn't say that. I am blaming Ashcroft for championing it. He's part of this administration.

>How did the Republicans gain control if the American people so disagree with them, bill?

The usual way people win political contests - good campaigning.

>You just don't want to back away from your folly that the APA I and/or II
>are so dangerous to liberty.

Nothing that has been proposed since the 1950's has done more damage to the Bill of Rights than the Patriot Act 1. If you think that VICTORY or Patriot II will be any different - well, I have a great deal on a bridge near the site of the GOP convention for ya. Easy payment plan, too.

Here's a partial list of what VICTORY (one version of PATRIOT II) would do:

# Allow the FBI to get a wiretap order on a wireless device, such as a cell phone, from any district court in the country
# Force defendants who are trying to exclude illegal wiretap evidence to prove police intentionally broke the rules
# Further restrict judges' sentencing discretion in drug cases
# Ease restrictions on government access to sensitive financial records
# Increase penalties for selling drugs to people under the age of 21
# Make it easier for the government to seize or freeze assets of people accused of money laundering
# Remove gradations of sentencing for those convicted of selling amphetamines so that anyone convicted of possessing more than 250 meth pills would automatically go to jail for 200 years
# Increase the ability of the FBI to self-issue subpoenas for terrorism investigations without having to consult a judge

But if you want something like that - you know who to vote for.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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>I know you know this, but the administration doesn't make laws.

Of course; but in this case Ashcroft (an administration official) championed its passage. One of the reasons we have an executive branch to begin with is so that one man (or a small group) can take rapid action to deal with things like 9/11. One of their responses to 9/11 was to push the Patriot Act, an act that had been waiting in the wings for just such an occasion. It is reasonable to assume that they will do in the future what they have done in the past.

And "championing the passage" of it got it ratified? No.
For that, your freedom-loving Democrat congresspeople had to comply and vote for it. Why did they, bill? They're the people you are claiming will save us from the second Patriot Act. They couldn't be counted on to read the first one, let alone stand in the way of its passage: as you said, only TWO of them out of all of them did not vote to pass that bill.

You make it sound like Ashcroft's "pushing" the bill got it made into law, skipping neatly over the part where the Democrat politicians you champion as our saviors from further infringement via Patriot Act II had to vote FOR it in order for us to suffer under it. (You also have not really made a great case for how we're suffering under it, by the way, and I wish you would, so I can see if I agree. So far, I haven't felt a pinch from it that I know of.)

So your glossing over the fact that your Democrats voted for the bill en masse does nothing for your case but make it smell like a stinking pile of horseshit.

Why won't you face it, and treat the subject honestly?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Jimbo 0]

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# Ease restrictions on government access to sensitive financial records

# Make it easier for the government to seize or freeze assets of people accused of money laundering

Those two items, at least, are likely the direct result of John Kerry's influence.

But if you want something like that, you know who to vote for. Right?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[kallend 1,651]

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NH4NO3 is plenty dangerous on its own too.

Would you mind being intellectually honest with us for a moment and address the RELATIVE INHERENT DANGEROUSNESS of diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate?



-

"Ammonium nitrate decomposes into gases including oxygen when heated (non-explosive reaction); however, ammonium nitrate can be induced to decompose explosively by detonation. Large stockpiles of the material can be a major fire risk due to their supporting oxidation, and may also detonate, as happened in the Texas City disaster of 1947, which led to major changes in the regulations for storage and handling. A heavy explosion, with 561 casualties, occurred in the city of Oppau (on the grounds of BASF near Ludwigshafen in Germany) on September 21, 1921. Another one occurred, 80 years later, at a plant in Toulouse, France, in September 21, 2001".

I don't think diesel fuel is spontaneously explosive or can be detonated, or is a strong oxidiser that promotes fires.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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But if you want something like that - you know who to vote for.

The same Democrats who along with Republicans voted to approve the first Patriot Act?

You still don't seem to get it, bill. If the Democrats -- as opposed to the Republicans -- were such the defenders of liberty and the smiters of bad, intrusive, abusive laws, they would have stood up to the first Patriot Act and said, "This is ridiculous: it is a dangerous, knee-jerk reaction and we must not pass it." But they did not. And not having read the text of the law is no excuse for them any more than it is for Republicans.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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"Ammonium nitrate decomposes into gases including oxygen when heated (non-explosive reaction); however, ammonium nitrate can be induced to decompose explosively by detonation. Large stockpiles of the material can be a major fire risk due to their supporting oxidation, and may also detonate, as happened in the Texas City disaster of 1947, which led to major changes in the regulations for storage and handling. A heavy explosion, with 561 casualties, occurred in the city of Oppau (on the grounds of BASF near Ludwigshafen in Germany) on September 21, 1921. Another one occurred, 80 years later, at a plant in Toulouse, France, in September 21, 2001".

I don't think diesel fuel is spontaneously explosive or can be detonated, or is a strong oxidiser that promotes fires.

No, you're right, we have every reason to believe that diesel fuel doesn't burn. (Or maybe I misinterpreted what "promotes fires" means.)

A five gallon jug of diesel fuel sits next to a five gallon jug of ammonium nitrate. Which is more dangerous, Professor? Which one, as it sits there could more readily be used as is to cause destruction? I'm not talking about "large stockpiles of the material can be a major fire risk due to their supporting oxidation, and may also detonate, as happened in the Texas City disaster of 1947." Nor am I talking about the explosion of 1921. Or in 2001.

No, I'm not asking about factory-type quantities of the stuff. I'm talking about end-user levels, which are the levels likely to be used by, well, end users, whether for good or ill. Could you be intellectually honest enough to compare apples to apples for just one post? Address my example. Five gallons of each. Which poses the more immediate potential to be used destructively. And I'm talking USED destructively, unlike your example of stockpiles going up inadvertently. Come on, Prof. Level with us. We're imploring you.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kallend 1,651]

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"Ammonium nitrate decomposes into gases including oxygen when heated (non-explosive reaction); however, ammonium nitrate can be induced to decompose explosively by detonation. Large stockpiles of the material can be a major fire risk due to their supporting oxidation, and may also detonate, as happened in the Texas City disaster of 1947, which led to major changes in the regulations for storage and handling. A heavy explosion, with 561 casualties, occurred in the city of Oppau (on the grounds of BASF near Ludwigshafen in Germany) on September 21, 1921. Another one occurred, 80 years later, at a plant in Toulouse, France, in September 21, 2001".

I don't think diesel fuel is spontaneously explosive or can be detonated, or is a strong oxidiser that promotes fires.

No, you're right, we have every reason to believe that diesel fuel doesn't burn. (Or maybe I misinterpreted what "promotes fires" means.)


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Yes you did. The rest of your post is, therefore, irrelevant.

And my point is made, that NH4NO3 is, all by itself, plenty dangerous.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I don't think diesel fuel is spontaneously explosive or can be detonated, or is a strong oxidiser that promotes fires.

No, you're right, we have every reason to believe that diesel fuel doesn't burn. (Or maybe I misinterpreted what "promotes fires" means.)


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Yes you did. The rest of your post is, therefore, irrelevant.

And my point is made, that NH4NO3 is, all by itself, plenty dangerous.

Your point seemed to be that huge industrial quantities of NH4NO3 are dangerous. But we are talking about individual and/or farm use of the stuff -- since the proposed legislation to require background checks to purchase the stuff is about that, not factory stockpiles of it. How cleverly disingenous of you to try to reframe the discussion and digress to a different subject altogether, unrelated to Schumer's call for added "security."

And are you saying that diesel fuel does not burn?!
What goes up when a tractor trailer crashes, pray tell?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[AggieDave 6]

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What goes up when a tractor trailer crashes, pray tell?

A fresh minty smell...just like the tractor trailer on 610 in Houston today, no flames, no huge fire, nothing the matter except a clean minty feeling.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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What goes up when a tractor trailer crashes, pray tell?

A fresh minty smell...just like the tractor trailer on 610 in Houston today, no flames, no huge fire, nothing the matter except a clean minty feeling.

Huh?
You're either being serious, or very sarcastic.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[AggieDave 6]

Both.

A tanker tractor trailer crashed and burst into flames today in Houston.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/090704_local_tankerfire.html

There ya go.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Well, where is Kallend to tell us that diesel fuel is not flammable? Isn't that the crux of what he was saying to me a few posts ago, trying to make fertilizer seem so dangerous?

I guess he's got to do something to defend the latest crusade by his idol, Chuck Schumer...

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[AggieDave 6]

It just takes a lot more heat to get diesel to burn then regular gasoline. Diesel is burned in engines by generating intense heat due to compression (over simplified)...so yup, it'll burn, just takes it more to get going. Sort of like certain women...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jumpinfarmer 0]

This is all buracratic bullshit.

Most fertilizer dealers that handle bulk amonium nitrate would not sell it to a unknown person. What I meen is that if AggieDave, Billvon, or anyone else on this forum walked into the Co.Op. here in my town and wanted several tons of anything they would be sent away. I've seen it happen, people they don't know who want some farm chemicle and will pay cash and there told no.

I have know trouble because they know me. I've filled out a credit application, I have an applicaters license, I'm a regular customer. I have had to buy stuff at other dealers and even if I pay cash I have to fill out paper work.

That said most fertilizer dealers don't handle amonium nitrate because of the lack of demand for it. If some stranger came around looking for it, it would realy send out the red flags and the athorities would be notified.

[Kris 0]

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Well, where is Kallend to tell us that diesel fuel is not flammable? Isn't that the crux of what he was saying to me a few posts ago, trying to make fertilizer seem so dangerous?

You missed what Kalled was saying, Jeffrey. Store up a bunch of diesel and a bunch of ammonia nitrate then wait.

One is stable, the other isn't and can, in certain instances, react all on its own.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Well, where is Kallend to tell us that diesel fuel is not flammable? Isn't that the crux of what he was saying to me a few posts ago, trying to make fertilizer seem so dangerous?

You missed what Kalled was saying, Jeffrey. Store up a bunch of diesel and a bunch of ammonia nitrate then wait.

One is stable, the other isn't and can, in certain instances, react all on its own.

Okay. Is that the danger that Chuck Schumer and his fellow hand-wringing liberals are trying to address via requiring background checks??

Can we stay on point, here?!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[AggieDave 6]

I don't know, just a wild haired guess, but I bet I'd have a better chance then BillVon...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

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I don't know, just a wild haired guess, but I bet I'd have a better chance then BillVon...

I don't know. Ever seen bill in a pair of overalls riding a tractor?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't know. Ever seen bill in a pair of overalls riding a tractor?

Only in my dreams...Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to say that outloud...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,651]

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Well, where is Kallend to tell us that diesel fuel is not flammable? Isn't that the crux of what he was saying to me a few posts ago, trying to make fertilizer seem so dangerous?

I guess he's got to do something to defend the latest crusade by his idol, Chuck Schumer...

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If you would just PAY ATTENTION you might learn something. Nowhere did I say diesel won't burn.

Ammonium nitrate is far more dangerous as a fire promoter/oxidizer than diesel fuel, AND it can detonate, which diesel cannot.


If you have an open bucket of diesel and an open bucket of ammonium nitrate and drop a lighted match in each, the diesel will probably extinguish the match and the ammonium nitrate will conflagrate violently.

A spark in a full, closed container of diesel will do nothing. A spark in a closed, full container of ammonium nitrate will cause an explosion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

Well, where is Kallend to tell us that diesel fuel is not flammable? Isn't that the crux of what he was saying to me a few posts ago, trying to make fertilizer seem so dangerous?

I guess he's got to do something to defend the latest crusade by his idol, Chuck Schumer...

-

Chuck Schumer is an asshole. Don't get me started on him.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.