Excessive homeland security

[Clownburner 0]

This is exactly the kind of thing that will eventually get the laws fixed, or at least partially repaired.. It makes you wonder if the terrorists will start using the names of prominant politicians and businesspeople to screw up these 'watch lists' on purpose, since they're already so broken in concept...

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(full article)

Senator? Terrorist? A Watch List Stops Kennedy at Airport
By RACHEL L. SWARNS

Published: August 20, 2004

WASHINGTON, Aug. 19 - The meeting had all the hallmarks of an ordinary Congressional hearing. There was Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, discussing the problems faced by ordinary citizens mistakenly placed on terrorist watch lists. Then, to the astonishment of the crowd attending a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday, Mr. Kennedy offered himself up as Exhibit A.

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Between March 1 and April 6, airline agents tried to block Mr. Kennedy from boarding airplanes on five occasions because his name resembled an alias used by a suspected terrorist who had been barred from flying on airlines in the United States, his aides and government officials said.

Instead of acknowledging the craggy-faced, silver-haired septuagenarian as the Congressional leader whose face has flashed across the nation's television sets for decades, the airline agents acted as if they had stumbled across a fanatic who might blow up an American airplane. Mr. Kennedy said they refused to give him his ticket.

"He said, 'We can't give it to you'," Mr. Kennedy said, describing an encounter with an airline agent to the rapt audience. " 'You can't buy a ticket to go on the airline to Boston.' I said, 'Well, why not?' He said, 'We can't tell you.' "

"Tried to get on a plane back to Washington," Mr. Kennedy continued. '' 'You can't get on the plane.' I went up to the desk and said, 'I've been getting on this plane, you know, for 42 years. Why can't I get on the plane?' "

The hearing room erupted in laughter.

Mr. Kennedy said his situation highlighted the odyssey encountered by people whose names had mistakenly appeared on terrorist watch lists or resembled the names of suspected terrorists on such lists. In April, the American Civil Liberties Union sued the government on behalf of seven airline passengers who said they had wrongly been placed on no-fly lists or associated with names on the lists and could not find a way to clarify their identities.

In Mr. Kennedy's case, airline supervisors ultimately overruled the ticket agents in each instance and allowed him to board the plane. But it took several weeks for the Department of Homeland Security to clear the matter up altogether, the senator's aides said.

Just days after Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge called Mr. Kennedy in early April to apologize and to promise that the problems would be resolved, another airline agent tried to stop Mr. Kennedy from boarding a plane yet again. The alias used by the suspected terrorist on the watch list was Edward Kennedy, said David Smith, a spokesman for the senator.

At the hearing, Mr. Kennedy wondered how ordinary citizens could navigate the tangled bureaucracy if a senator had so much trouble. "How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?" he asked.

Asa Hutchinson of the Department of Homeland Security, who was testifying at the Senate hearing, said his department was working to address the situation. He said travelers with such problems should contact the ombudsman at the Transportation Security Administration, a division of Homeland Security, who would help them take steps to clarify their identities.

"There is a process to clear names," said Mr. Hutchinson, the department's under secretary for border security. "But it does illustrate the importance of improving the whole system, which we are very aggressively working to do."

On Monday, Mr. Hutchinson told Congress that Homeland Security officials planned to take over the checking of names of passengers against the no-fly lists. The responsibility is now carried out by the airlines, to ensure that terror suspects do not board airplanes and that law enforcement officials are promptly notified of potential security risks.

Advocates for tougher screening requirements say the current system is ineffective because the government does not provide the airlines with a comprehensive set of watch lists, in part because some of that information is classified. Civil libertarians also cite instances in which airlines have mistakenly denied passengers the right to fly.

The ticket agents who tried to block Mr. Kennedy from boarding planes to Washington, Boston, Palm Beach and New York worked for US Airways, Senate officials said. Amy Kudwa, a US Airways spokeswoman, acknowledged that Mr. Kennedy was a frequent passenger, but declined to comment on the incidents.

Lawyers for the American Civil Liberties Union said they did not know how many people had been mistakenly placed on watch lists. But they said the sluggish responses from the airline and the government to Mr. Kennedy's efforts to clear his name demonstrated the absurdity of the no-fly system.

"It demonstrates all those things that we found problems with in the first place, " said Reginald Shulford of the A.C.L.U."If you're Ted Kennedy, you can call a friend," Mr. Shulford said. "If you're an average citizen you cannot. You can complain to the Department of Homeland Security, but to no avail."

At the hearing, Mr. Kennedy emphasized his concern for passengers stuck on no-fly lists. But he tried to make light of his own troubles.

He said, to much laughter, that he did not believe the mistake was a conspiracy engineered by his Republican colleagues. And as Mr. Hutchinson offered up his apologies, Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, responded jokingly in kind.

Mr. Hutchinson said, "Senator, we do regret that inconvenience to you."

Mr. Hatch said, "Quit smiling when you say that."

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

WASHINGTON, Aug. 19 - The meeting had all the hallmarks of an ordinary Congressional hearing. There was Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, discussing the problems faced by ordinary citizens mistakenly placed on terrorist watch lists. Then, to the astonishment of the crowd attending a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday, Mr. Kennedy offered himself up as Exhibit A.

As what, a 4H prize hog at a state fair?

[Clownburner 0]

Quote

It seems that Kennedy can only realize a law is wrong when it fucks with his freedom to come and go, and do as he pleases.

-

That's not just him, I think that's all politicians nowadays.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[newsstand 0]

Just out of curiosity how many times in your life have you needed your weapon to protect yourself? I am 46 years old and have lived in a large part of the US and parts of Europe and never been personaly threatened. Just wonder how often it happens to the "I must have a gun" club.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Just out of curiosity how many times in your life have you needed your weapon to protect yourself? I am 46 years old and have lived in a large part of the US and parts of Europe and never been personaly threatened. Just wonder how often it happens to the "I must have a gun" club.

I carry, but I have never had to use a gun in self defense. I'm grateful for that. If I ever have to use a gun in self defense, it will mean that I have already concluded that I am in mortal danger from another human being (or possibly an animal, but in West Palm Beach, the former is far more likely than the latter, unless you're talking about a drug dealer's pit bull terrier). In such a case, I recognize, there are no guarantees I will come out of the altercation unscathed. I would just as soon go about my life prepared with a handgun, and have it turn out to be superfluous as I lie on my deathbed and reflect that I never had to draw it on anyone. Did you think I walked around wishing I would be put in a position of having to shoot someone? That would mean that I was perilously close to being killed, myself. No, thanks.

But I do not look at 11 years of carrying concealed handguns without incident and say, "Gee, that proves that it'll never be useful to me, so I'll stop carrying it." I also haven't had a serious car wreck, or a house fire. I don't stop wearing my seat belt, and I don't sell my smoke detectors and fire extinguisher, either.

The position that a gun has to be used in order to prove its utility is specious. In the vast majority of defensive gun uses, according to numerous studies (most notably by Gary Kleck of Florida State University, or was it University of South Florida...one of those) the gun is presented but not fired, and that is sufficient to send an attacker running after breaking off the attack in fear of his own life.

That's good enough by me.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Quote

It seems that Kennedy can only realize a law is wrong when it fucks with his freedom to come and go, and do as he pleases.

-

That's not just him, I think that's all politicians nowadays.

Yes, but he is their king.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kallend 1,661]

Quote

Quote

WASHINGTON, Aug. 19 - The meeting had all the hallmarks of an ordinary Congressional hearing. There was Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, discussing the problems faced by ordinary citizens mistakenly placed on terrorist watch lists. Then, to the astonishment of the crowd attending a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Thursday, Mr. Kennedy offered himself up as Exhibit A.

As what, a 4H prize hog at a state fair?

Between March 1 and April 6, airline agents tried to block Mr. Kennedy from boarding airplanes on five occasions

[chutem 0]

I had a drunk asshole pound a hole through my bedroom wall from his apartment. By the time I got over there he had it big enough to get his head and shoulder/arm through. He was yelling about killing someone. It sure was comforting to have my .357 full of hollow points on the dresser. I got up pointed it at his head from about 5 feet away yelled at the wife to call 911 and at this asshole that I was going to blow his head off. He kept makeing the hole bigger and trying to get at me/us. I pulled the hammer back pointed right between his eyes and yelled I'm going to blow your fuckin head off. At this point he realizes what is about to happen, pulls his head/arm back through the hole and continues yelling till the cops got there and handled the situation. If I had not had my weapon I'm sure things would not have turned out so well. By the way this was Christmas morning about 5am. The threat of deadly force was enough to stop this situation. I sure am glad I didn't have to shoot this jerk and hope he knows he was about 6 inches movement from death.

James

Bullets, shoot all you want we'll make more!!!!!!!!

[cameramonkey 0]

Its better to have a weapon, and not need it, than to need one and not have it.

Its a shame that we dont hear more stories like this. Alas, the news outlets only care if it goes one step further... no blood, no body, no story.

and as for the original story, the quoite about "..i;ve been getting on that plane for 42 years..." Maybe somebody at the TSA finally REALIZED that, and wanted to prevent more damage to the country.

Every time I hear that man's name, and think about Chappaquiddick, my heart sinks.... how many times have THEY voted for such a letcherous old drunk, and in comparison all we have to worry about is a lying vietnam flake... I would probably vote for him over Kennedy at the senatorial level. At least he didnt drown a lover (at least not that we know about).

Two wrongs don't make a right, however three lefts DO!

[Balls 0]

As what, a 4H prize hog at a state fair?


ROTFLMAO

----------------------------------------
....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[kallend 1,661]

Just discovered that one of my colleagues, an engineering professor, is stranded in Turkey on account of this blacklist.

He went to give a seminar series at a Turkish university over the summer. He's now been stranded there for 7 weeks until the HSA sorts out its mess.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

If you could just get your hostility under control you would appreciate that Kennedy and Rep. John Lewis (Georgia, also on the list in error) are doing us all a service by pointing out the ridiculous TSA process.

Oh, fuckin' puhlease.
If they were trying to do that, they didn't have to wait til it affected them personally. Anyone can see that ON ITS FACE, TSA policy is fuckin' moronic. Grandma can't have her knittting scissors. Dad can't have his nail clippers. I can't have my Benchmade Mini-Griptilian. Should I even mention the hassles they give skydivers with their rigs?! (Think Thailand record/broken reserve pin fiasco) And we're all safer.

Funny, I have flown a couple of times since9/11, and I have NOT been terribly inconvenienced by security measures (with the exception of not being allowed to take a simple pocket knife I used to be completely okay to carry) -- and without having had personal travel difficulties I knew that TSA screening is worth shit.

Kennedy had to wait three years, and finally get hassled himself, before he would go to bat for us against a useless and incompetent government bureaucratic agency. What a swell guy. Always lookin' out for us.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[BartsDaddy 4]

newsstand
I am not peacefuljeffrey. But i have had a few occasions where a weapon would have been wellcome. One was when I travelled to Oakland California to enlist in the Navy I was outside the bus terminal waiting on the hotel shuttle van. When two individuals approached me and placed a 357 magnum to my head. They wanted the 10 dollars I had on me. I disssarmed them and turned them over to Oakland PD.
Another time when I was in the service on liberty in San Diego me and a friend were walking back to base when somebody stepped out of an alley and stabbed my friend. He almost died He came verry close to it. I made it away without getting hurt by outrunning the assailent while my friend lay bleeding. I would have loved to have had a firearm at that moment to disspatch the SOB to hell. But the law prohibited me from it.
So there have been a few times I would have liked to have a weapon but California makes it verry hard to get a CCW permit. so at least thoose two times I was lucky too come out of it alive. But I am glad you have not been personaly threatened. But that does not mean others have been so lucky.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[burbleflyer 0]

Quote

Just out of curiosity how many times in your life have you needed your weapon to protect yourself? I am 46 years old and have lived in a large part of the US and parts of Europe and never been personaly threatened. Just wonder how often it happens to the "I must have a gun" club.

Just curious if you've ever called the fire department to put out a fire at your house? Guess we dont need fire departments.
Oh and to further show the lack of logic in your statement:
I have never needed a seatbelt.
I have never needed an airbag.
I have never needed a helmet.
Should I give them all up?

[PhreeZone 15]

>Should I even mention the hassles they give skydivers with their rigs?!

Have you flown with a rig ever? I'm yet to experience a hassle in the last 2 years. I've carried my rig to TX many times, CA, NY and FL. I have more problems getting my latop through then I do my rig.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[newsstand 0]

Read the whole thread, I have conceded defeat on CCL, or CCW or whatever the hell TLA you want to use.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[newsstand 0]

Read the whole thread, I have conceded defeat on CCL, or CCW or whatever the hell TLA you want to use

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[billvon 2,454]

>If you could just get your hostility under control . . .

Consider this your one warning. No personal attacks.

[burbleflyer 0]

Quote

Read the whole thread, I have conceded defeat on CCL, or CCW or whatever the hell TLA you want to use

Its pretty obvious you were calling out gun owners to show they NEEDED "to use" a gun to justify its possesion nevermind the fact that you "conceded".
I was just pointing out that some things we "need" are sometimes never used but we have them anyway...because its a smart thing to do.