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akarunway

concealed firearms

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I keep hearing the argument, "Show me one incident where a law has prevented something from happening." What you are asking is that we prove a negative. One of the basic rules of both journalism and debating is that you can't prove a negative. Find a new argument.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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All right so there are two reasons for the laws. One to harass law-abiding citizens and two to provide an additional penalty for law breakers.

Does that make you happy? Part two is the real reason for the laws.



Part two being the "real" reason for the laws does not mitigate the harassment factor of part one, now does it. Is it a comfort to the people that the law harasses unjustifiably, to say that at least there's an additional penalty for law breakers that comes out of it?

The whole "additional penalty" thing is just stupid. It's like adding a "commission of a felony while in possession of a firearm" charge to a murder charge. WTF?! Why is that even necessary? You're already putting him on trial for his life.

In our example, if a guy takes a gun to a bar and kills someone with it, you get him for murder or manslaughter; you don't need to criminalize carrying a gun in a bar just to add a few months to the guy's sentence for murder, do you?

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If you rally want to whack your spouse the laws won't have any impact. But if you are drunk and pissed they might slow you down until you are a little more rational.



Yeah, right, go on believing that. :S Drunk and pissed, you're going to stop trying to kill your wife because you're worried about the penalty for carrying a gun into the bar?? :S

Or, if you're the type who WOULD ever kill his wife, you're the type to OBEY the law that says don't carry the gun into the bar?? :S

You predicate an awful lot on the notion of the lawless in society abiding by the law, don't you?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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I keep hearing the argument, "Show me one incident where a law has prevented something from happening." What you are asking is that we prove a negative. One of the basic rules of both journalism and debating is that you can't prove a negative. Find a new argument.



First of all, I haven't asked anyone to prove a negative. I have stated that laws cannot prevent things from happening, though. I stand by that.

Secondly, you need not prove the negative in order to satisfy me. It might suffice if you could show that having the law got someone caught for having a gun when he was intending to kill someone with it in the bar. Surely someone has been caught with a gun in a bar before? That would do fine at proving the utility of these laws, right?

We're not asking you to "count all the people who didn't get killed, thanks to this law." Our point is that the law did not put a physical barrier between a killer and a victim. If the law had any effect, regarding protecting victims from killers, it would have to be because the would-be killer consented voluntarily to leave the gun out of the bar. That is certainly not tantamount to being STOPPED from bringing the gun into the bar by the LAW, because the would-be killer could just as easily have decided NOT to leave the gun behind, and the law could do nothing but provide for punishing him after the fact.

You might want to consider what happens often when women get orders of protection against estranged spouses. It happens a lot when the woman believes the spouse might harm her, maybe even kill her. Women DIE because they mistakenly put faith in the ability of a written order on a piece of paper to physically protect them, when such a notion is ludicrous. An estranged husband who shows up to pound in the door and murder his ex wife is, to put it mildly, past the point of caring that going near her is going to get him put into the pokey. Can we agree on that? Because if we do, you kinda have to admit that laws don't have the power to prevent behavior. You have that ability confused with the threat of punishment deterring behavior. There are those who will not be deterred, either because the punishment is overshadowed by their desire to do the crime, or because they (right or wrong) believe they will not get caught.

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Granted that I only posted it recently but I have not received any response from people who have used a gun in self-defense. When was the last time your concealed carry license protected you?

I am not in favor of harassing the innocent but I have yet to understand what the common citizen derives from carrying a handgun.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Granted that I only posted it recently but I have not received any response from people who have used a gun in self-defense. When was the last time your concealed carry license protected you?

I am not in favor of harassing the innocent but I have yet to understand what the common citizen derives from carrying a handgun.



Is this a trick question? My concealed carry license is just a card made of plastic -- it can't protect me. Ohhhh, do you mean like when someone's bible stops a bullet in his breast pocket?! :P

If something protected me, it would probably be the gun that I carry and know how to use.

Let me ask you, when was the last time your kitchen fire extinguisher helped you prevent your house from burning down? If it never has, is that a valid reason not to own it and keep it handy?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Not a trick question, when was the last time that "packing" protected you from crime?


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Granted that I only posted it recently but I have not received any response from people who have used a gun in self-defense. When was the last time your concealed carry license protected you?

I am not in favor of harassing the innocent but I have yet to understand what the common citizen derives from carrying a handgun.



Instead of asking, "Why carry a gun," why not ask, "Why not carry a gun?" When asked this question, I always point to the case that was the catalyst behind Texas finally getting legal concealed carry.

On October 16, 1991, Suzanna Hupp and her parents went to the Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, TX, for lunch. Suzanna was in the practice of carrying a pistol in her purse for protection, but she had become concerned about loosing her chiropractors license if caught carrying a concealed weapon in Texas, which was then illegal under all circumstances, so she decided to leave the gun under the front seat of her car. After all, lunch at Luby's isn't exactly a high risk situation.
While she and her parents were eating, thirty-five year old George Hennard drove a 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the restaurant window. He then exited the pickup, yelled "This is what Bell County has done to me," and opened fire on the patrons with two handguns, only pausing to change magazines as needed.

When the shooting started, Ms. Hupp reached into her purse for a gun that wasn't there. Both of her parents died. When the smoke had cleared, George Hennard had killed 22 people. Suzanna Hupp went before the Texas senate and told them that if she'd had her gun, she could have made a difference. Now citizens with no criminal record who have passed multiple FBI fingerprint and background checks, as well as training and testing, can carry concealed handguns most places in Texas.

Concealed carry hasn't caused an increase in crime (some studies say it's actually decreased it), so again I ask, "Why not carry a gun?"
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

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All right so there are two reasons for the laws. One to harass law-abiding citizens and two to provide an additional penalty for law breakers.

Does that make you happy? Part two is the real reason for the laws.



If you want more penalties for law breeakers, then increase the penalties for breaking the law.

There is no need to make otherwise legal actions illegal, when you want to discourage a different action.

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If you rally want to whack your spouse the laws won't have any impact. But if you are drunk and pissed they might slow you down until you are a little more rational.



You realize you just contradicted yourself, right?

You just said that a law can't stop someone, then you say it can.

Besides, what does that have to do with our example? Are you going to make carage doors illegal, because drunks stumble with keys, so that might slow him down an make him think?
(he's already sucha piece of shit he's going to beat his wife, why would a nother law on a piece of paper slow him down?)

Really, when's the last time you saw a restraining order a person couldn't walk right through?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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A gun does not "protect you." It allows a person to stop an attack upon them (hence the crime is already in progress, not prevented) from going completely out of their control.

It let's you protect yourself when the law and police are unable to do so.

See the attached pictures to udnerstand why we carry.



ps - a gun may be more effective than a law in the bigger picture at preventing crime, for the simple reason that criminals are a lot more afraid of an armed victim than the law.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Do a search for "Armed Citizen."

It happens on a regular basis. (or you could search for statistics on Defensive Gun Uses, DGUs - Estimates range from 700,000 to a bit over three million every year)

Just because it hasn't happened to us isn't a good reason to stop having the tools for an emergency. Have you ever been in an accident? If not, you should never bother wearing a seat belt ever again.

Have you ever had a significant portion of your house catch fire? If not, you should never have a charged fire extinguisher ever again.

Have you ever treated someone for a cut requiring stiches? If not, you should never have a first aid kit in your possesion ever again.

Have you ever had to escape from a burning building? If not, you should never have a fire escape or window ladder ever again.

Do I really have to go on?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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I don't agree with this assessment, because I don't think a person who harmlessly goes into a bar -- let's say he's throwing darts with friends and is their designated driver, so he imbibes zero alcohol -- is "criminal" for carrying his licensed handgun even if it is against the "law" to do so.



If you do something that is against the law you are breaking the law. Wether you think the law is good or bad is irrelevant.

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I draw significant distinctions between those who carry somewhat outside of what the permit allows but DO NO HARM to anyone, and INTEND NO HARM to anyone, and those who carry because they're looking for trouble. The ones who are looking for trouble are generally going to be found to be carrying without a permit, anyway.



There are a lot of people that don't go looking for trouble but find some because of some other drunk idiot. Now, if you are under the influence when someone picks a fight you may make some bad choices. Now, if you have your firearm you *may* use that in your bad choice decisions. You weren't looking for trouble.

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If a law was passed tomorrow that made it illegal to blink your eyes, you could truthfully call all of us criminals unworthy of having eyelids. That wouldn't necessarily make us bad people. Put a nonsensical legal impediment between people and their harmless behavior (carrying a gun is not intrinsically bad behavior) and you don't necessarily prove that they are bad or unworthy people.
-



This has got to be one the most rediculous analogies you have ever made. laws against blinking? Why not laws against breathing? or Eating? WTF?

Here is a better one.

I think most people will agree that it is bad (and against the law to )

1) Drive while under the influence.
2) Fly while under the influence
3) Perform a surgical operation while under the influence

I think most people will agree that is is bad (not sure if against the law to)

1) Shoot a firearm while under the influence
2) Skydive while under the influence
3) Operate Heavy machinery while under the influence.

Now, If you are found, sitting in the front seat of your car, while drunk with the keys in your hand you will be charged with driving while under the influence. You weren't driving, you were just parked with the possibility of driving (which as mentioned above is bad, against the law)

If you are found sitting in a bar, while carrying a firearm you will be charged as a crime (currently a crime correct?) You weren't shooting it, but you had the possibility of shooting it...

It is probably safer to let a person keep their gun when they enter a bar instead of leaving it in their car. The gun/car could be stolen if left in a car.

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Oh, bars...anyplace here that's a 51% (makes 51% or more of their money from alcohol) it is a felony to carry a firearm there, CHL or not.



So a liqour store counts. You can't drink in a liqour store but you can buy alcohol. Do the stores hang a placard outside stating they make > 51% from alcohol so a someone knows not to enter with their gun?

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I keep hearing the argument, "Show me one incident where a law has prevented something from happening." What you are asking is that we prove a negative. One of the basic rules of both journalism and debating is that you can't prove a negative. Find a new argument.



It's fair to ask: "prove that this law has value."

It's been claimed that the Brady Bill has prevented billions of felons from getting firearms. If the proof were a bit more solid *and* they were arrested rather than left to buy guns another way, it would have been a suitable defense for it.

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There are a lot of people that don't go looking for trouble but find some because of some other drunk idiot. Now, if you are under the influence when someone picks a fight you may make some bad choices. Now, if you have your firearm you *may* use that in your bad choice decisions. You weren't looking for trouble.



I though Jeffrey was very clear that he was talking about people going into a bar, but not drinking.

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Now, If you are found, sitting in the front seat of your car, while drunk with the keys in your hand you will be charged with driving while under the influence. You weren't driving, you were just parked with the possibility of driving (which as mentioned above is bad, against the law)



Incorrect. In every state I've read laws for (some of us read, rather than accepting "common knowldge), without the keys in the ignition, an officer cannot make a good arrest for DWI or DUI (too many officers are satisfied with bad arrests over no arrests).
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Oh, bars...anyplace here that's a 51% (makes 51% or more of their money from alcohol) it is a felony to carry a firearm there, CHL or not.



So a liqour store counts. You can't drink in a liqour store but you can buy alcohol. Do the stores hang a placard outside stating they make > 51% from alcohol so a someone knows not to enter with their gun?



Are you being intentionally obtuse?

He means any place making 51% of their revenue from serving alcohol.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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If you do something that is against the law you are breaking the law. Wether you think the law is good or bad is irrelevant.



Once upon a time, it would have been illegal for you to help a slave who had run away get to freedom.

With that in mind, are you prepared to say that anything that is "law" is right and good, and not only should be enforced, but should remain as law? I'm not.

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I draw significant distinctions between those who carry somewhat outside of what the permit allows but DO NO HARM to anyone, and INTEND NO HARM to anyone, and those who carry because they're looking for trouble. The ones who are looking for trouble are generally going to be found to be carrying without a permit, anyway.



There are a lot of people that don't go looking for trouble but find some because of some other drunk idiot. Now, if you are under the influence when someone picks a fight you may make some bad choices. Now, if you have your firearm you *may* use that in your bad choice decisions. You weren't looking for trouble.



Sounds again like you would have your desires met by a law that says you can't DRINK while in possession of your gun, or be DRUNK while in possession of your gun. Once again, that is different and distinct from BEING IN A BAR, UN-DRUNK with your gun. If mr. drunkard attacks me, and I haven't been drinking, I'm in my right mind to make whatever decisions I have to, just like if I was in a TGI Fridays having dinner while armed with a gun. There, it's no big thing. But you're saying that in a bar, it's different? Why's it different if I'm not drinking? And why must you make a law that says I can't bring the gun into the bar, when all you really want is to keep me from having the gun while DRUNK?

The fact remains that I could get myself wasted in my living room at ten in the morning, have my gun on my lap, and "make bad decisions" when the mailman comes to the door! Nothing about the law against having a gun in a bar prevents that. But a law against handling a gun while drunk (which, note carefully, couldn't STOP me from doing it) would provide penalty if I was found to have done so. (Of course, as I said earlier, the bigger issue, which provides for all the prison or execution you would need, would be the fact that I killed a guy.)



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If a law was passed tomorrow that made it illegal to blink your eyes, you could truthfully call all of us criminals unworthy of having eyelids. That wouldn't necessarily make us bad people. Put a nonsensical legal impediment between people and their harmless behavior (carrying a gun is not intrinsically bad behavior) and you don't necessarily prove that they are bad or unworthy people.
-



This has got to be one the most rediculous analogies you have ever made. laws against blinking? Why not laws against breathing? or Eating? WTF?



It was ridiculous for a reason. You were trying to justify saying that a given action was "bad" just because a law said it was, without any rational thought behind whether the law actually punishes a truly bad act or an innocent one.

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Here is a better one.

I think most people will agree that it is bad (and against the law to )

1) Drive while under the influence.
2) Fly while under the influence
3) Perform a surgical operation while under the influence

I think most people will agree that is is bad (not sure if against the law to)

1) Shoot a firearm while under the influence
2) Skydive while under the influence
3) Operate Heavy machinery while under the influence.

Now, If you are found, sitting in the front seat of your car, while drunk with the keys in your hand you will be charged with driving while under the influence. You weren't driving, you were just parked with the possibility of driving (which as mentioned above is bad, against the law)

If you are found sitting in a bar, while carrying a firearm you will be charged as a crime (currently a crime correct?) You weren't shooting it, but you had the possibility of shooting it...



If I were drunk in my living room and the gun was in my nightstand drawer, I have the possibility of shooting it. What is your point? The guy with the gun in the bar, if it's still concealed and he is not brandishing it, is not necessarily INTENDING to fire it. The guy in the car can definitely be said to intend to drive. Those are two very mismatched analogies, dude.

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It is probably safer to let a person keep their gun when they enter a bar instead of leaving it in their car. The gun/car could be stolen if left in a car.



Weren't you just arguing in favor of the laws that prohibit bringing a gun into a bar?? :S

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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OK, I have been thinking about this for a while now. Did some digging on the Internet as suggested in Kennedy's post and here is where I end up.

I remember the Luby's killings and they were clearly awful. Had she been able to stop them it would have been great, although considering the law at the time she probably would have been in a world of trouble too. I also suspect that hunting around would find a case of a licensed gun owner doing something very wrong that would provide a reason to ban the practice so one case is not really a solid reason to pass a law.

Clearly guns get used for defensive means regularly although it seems most often in the home where concealed carry would not apply. The results of the 1994 Florida State survey are questioned by many, some on the pro-gun ownership side, but do indicate that there is a certain level of valid DGU in the country.

Given the requirements here in the state of Texas and the history since the law was passed I would have to say that it isn't neccessarily a bad thing but I am not heading out to the store for a handgun, training, and licensing.

I will remain strongly in favor of background checks, waiting periods, no gun areas and the rest.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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If you rally want to whack your spouse the laws won't have any impact. But if you are drunk and pissed they might slow you down until you are a little more rational.



You realize you just contradicted yourself, right?

You just said that a law can't stop someone, then you say it can.



No contradiction. I said that if your intent is to kill your wife no law will stop you. But if you are drunk and get pissed and have to go to some level of effort to gather your gun you MIGHT take the time to think about the consequences.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Not a trick question, when was the last time that "packing" protected you from crime?



When was the last time your car air bag protected you in a car wreck? Never? Is that proof that there is no point in bothering to have one?

When was the last time your Cypress activated your reserve and saved your life?

When was the last time you used a fire extinguisher to keep your house from burning down?

When was the last time you cashed-in a life insurance policy on yourself?

Just because it is a rare instance when one of these things actually proves beneficial, does not detract from the concept that it is a good idea to have all of these things to be prepared for the worst. You only have to use one of these things once in your lifetime, to make them invaluable. Having a gun for self defense is no different.

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Oh, bars...anyplace here that's a 51% (makes 51% or more of their money from alcohol) it is a felony to carry a firearm there, CHL or not.



So a liqour store counts. You can't drink in a liqour store but you can buy alcohol. Do the stores hang a placard outside stating they make > 51% from alcohol so a someone knows not to enter with their gun?



Yes, they do. The state law requires that any establishment that makes more than 50% of its income from alcohol, post a sign that warns people with concealed handguns that it is illegal for them to enter the establishment armed. The sign has to have specific language, be a specific size, and be conspicuously posted by the front door.

If there's no such sign, then you can enter the store armed, legally.

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How about reading what others say before you leap in. Would have saved yourself some typing.

edited to fix a typo.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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I will remain strongly in favor of background checks, waiting periods, no gun areas and the rest.



Anyone who is strongly in favor of "no gun areas" is strongly in favor of "victim disarmament areas" in which the victims have no guns for defense, but anyone strident enough to enter after not respecting the no-gun rules decides to shoot the place up.

It is certainly not the case that every "gun free zone" is screened with magnetometers to be sure that no one enters with a gun, so the only people without guns in such areas are those who wish to obey the rules. We typically don't expect that kind of rule-following behavior from our criminal element.

NOTHING good comes of "gun free zones" since by their very nature, only the good people voluntarily disarm themselves there.

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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