billvon 2,456 #276 July 7, 2004 >Action takes courage! So what did you do to stop terrorism? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #277 July 7, 2004 Quote>Action takes courage! So what did you do to stop terrorism? I could tell you, But........... ---------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,456 #278 July 7, 2004 >I could tell you, But........... Thought so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #279 July 7, 2004 -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #280 July 7, 2004 ------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larskjargaard 0 #281 July 7, 2004 I've been following this thread for a while and what a strange thread it is. Let me start by saying all of us have a resposibility to one another as human beings to improve each others lives. When a group of people decide to kill another group of people lives are devastated in the process anger levels rise, tempers flare and action is demanded by those devastated. In this case it describes to both sides. Humans simply must stop killing each other. Have you asked yourself (and no mater who made this movie you should have) could this be true, is there a chance that the film maker is telling the truth and if so what am I going to do now? We owe it to mankind to demand better from the people who are representing us. What about disclosure before an election.I am sickened to think that maybe innocent people died for oil money and the truth is that I don't know the absolute truth and never will. If S.H. had and was planning to kill people with devastating weapons then Bush and the boys may have saved countless at the cost of innocent peoples lives. If he never had any and the whole fucking thing was about the massive bank accounts of a few select people growing even bigger, what does that make the Bush administration? Since when has politics become a leap of faith... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #282 July 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo it wouldn't. It is not illegal to buy something that later becomes illegal, if it is legal when purchased. gee... that sounds like what I said. Yes, and it makes you just as wrong as he is, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #283 July 8, 2004 Google "ex post facto law".quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #284 July 8, 2004 QuoteGoogle "ex post facto law". I don't have to, I know what it means. Lets put it this way. Suppose Tom purchased a software license from me and part of the license stipulates is it only be used for personal usage on one computer. I later discover Tom is using it for commercial purposes and in fact Tom is damaging my business with it and I suspect Tom is making illegal copies. I take Tom to court and produce receipts that prove he purchased the software from me and that he has also made illegal copies. Based on that evidence, plus his own allocution that he is guilty as charged, the court orders him to return the software to me plus to destroy all illegal copies and to prove he has destroyed them. In a probationary deal to prevent him from going to jail, Tom agrees to provide access to his business and records by officers of the court anytime day or night. Tom does this for a while but soon grows weary of the constant intrusions so he starts telling the probation officers to come back next week. Eventually Tom tells them to go away and leave him alone because he feels harrassed. The court then finds Tom guilty of violating the terms of his probation, finds him in contempt of court , and orders him to prove he is no longer making illegal copies or face prison. Tom tells the court he doesn't have illegal copies, isn't making them and if his word isn't good enough, to go to hell. The court then issues 17 seperate Show Cause Orders to which each time Tom begrudgenly allows access to his company records and to prove he has no more illegal copies. Tom also takes a couple of shots at his probation officer for snooping around trying to catch him. This goes on for years and he continues to be uncooperative up until the point where the Judge is ready to send the police to arrest Tom. Then and only then does Tom relent and agree to give access but as it turn out, his cooperation just enough to get me and the court off his back and then he goes back to the same uncooperative mode. At this point, not only has Tom violated the original agreement he made to provide me with the software, he has violated a court order to destroy all illegal copies of the software and to prove he destroyed them. Tom has added another charge of violating the terms of his probation which he had previously agreed to as an alternative to going to jail. The judge then decides he has had enough and sends the sheriff to arrest Tom. Tom is your client. Go ahead and defend him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #285 July 8, 2004 I would just bomb his house while everybody is sleeping, then i would call all the neighbourghs killed in the explosion "collateral damage" and say to everybody that History will judge me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,456 #286 July 8, 2004 >Lets put it this way. Suppose Tom purchased a software license from me > and part of the license stipulates is it only be used for personal usage on >one computer. Is it your assertion, then, that we sold WMD's to Iraq as part of an agreement that they would be used only to kill Iranians, and would then be destroyed? Prove it. In any case, your example makes no sense. A better example would be that you sold Tom some software. He used it for a while, then discarded it. You wanted it accounted for. He said "I threw it out." You demanded a receipt proving that he had thrown it out. He said "It's in a dump somewhere; I don't have a receipt." Under what law would you prosecute Tom? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #287 July 8, 2004 QuoteUnder what law would you prosecute Tom? Ask the UN, they were doing it. I think the example is valid. No one I've heard has disputed that the former Iraqi government violated UN orders. Orders that had consequences including military action. Most of the gripes I've heard is that the US and a few other countries just acted without UN approval. Would it have been okay if the UN decided to enforce its orders, or would that have been wrong too?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,456 #288 July 8, 2004 >No one I've heard has disputed that the former Iraqi government violated >UN orders. Orders that had consequences including military action. Well, violated a resolution, and I agree - that _is_ a good reason to give for an armed response. >Most of the gripes I've heard is that the US and a few other countries just >acted without UN approval. Would it have been okay if the UN decided to >enforce its orders, or would that have been wrong too? It would still have been wrong in hindsight but I would have supported that action; it would be the best we could do at the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #289 July 8, 2004 Quote Would it have been okay if the UN decided to enforce its orders, or would that have been wrong too? I know that this can be easy disputed by those who believe that Saddam was really a threat when we went into Iraq, but here's my thoughts anyway... I think that the UN was actively enforcing it's resolutions... There were economic sanctions on Iraq, and there were weapons inspectors in Iraq searching for banned weapons, and WMD programs. The UN uses force as an absolute last resort, and I think that it's safe to say that without the US's pushiness, the UN would not have seen that point in time as an appropriate time to militarily go into Iraq... They wouldn't have been able to have unanimous support from the 5 main members. There was and still is no clear threat that Saddam had any intention of attacking any other countries, nor using any banned WMDs. That's why the UN wasn't pushing for an attack. Before anyone says it, I would also like to say that's it's ridiculous to think that the Oil for food scandal had anything to do with that decision. The UN was using non military means to "enforce its orders"... without any clear connection to 9/11, what made their decision to not rally up an international force and enter Iraq so wrong? I mean, representatives from around the world voted and did not feel it was appropriate! It's not like the UN is a private organization... it's made up of members of the global community. I know I just opened a whole can of worms... drew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #290 July 9, 2004 OK now that I've actually watched the movie... my personal take. Not a whole lot that I didn't know already. For me the most powerful moments were the scenes depicting the suffering of the Iraqi citizens and the families of the soldiers sent over there. War is hell. I also loved the sequences where Moore tried to get Congressmen who approved the war to get their own children to go over themselves. That was as damning evidence as anything. It was an OK movie... I wouldn't say it was as good as Bowling for Columbine, and I wouldn't say it deserved best film at Cannes, but it was decent. I don't think it will really sway the election. Just my humble $0.02 - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #291 July 9, 2004 (Spoilers Below!!!!) Ya know, the one thing I thought was -great- story telling (let's leave the politics out of it for a minute) was the sequence depicting the events at the World Trade Center. We've all seen the video a jillion times and I thought it was very powerful to just leave the audience listening to the sounds. Then, rather than us seeing the buildings crashing to the ground, again something we've seen all too many times, he cuts to faces of people in the streets watching the buildings. We don't need to see the architectural damage, instead, he shows us the loss of innocence and the human tragedy on the helpless masses. No matter what you thought of the politics -- that was pretty powerful film making.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #292 July 9, 2004 QuoteI also loved the sequences where Moore tried to get Congressmen who approved the war to get their own children to go over themselves. That was as damning evidence as anything. Buzzer sound Wrong! His kid was serving in the military. The Fat Liar conveniently omitted that fact! --------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #293 July 9, 2004 QuoteBuzzer sound Wrong! His kid was serving in the military. Really? Please prove this to me... - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #294 July 9, 2004 Oh, and you obviously haven't seen this movie because there was more than one congressperson involved. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #295 July 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteBuzzer sound Wrong! His kid was serving in the military. Really? Please prove this to me... Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. ---------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #296 July 9, 2004 And what day was that sequence shot? I mean, I don't know either.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #297 July 9, 2004 QuoteOh, and you obviously haven't seen this movie because there was more than one congressperson involved. Want to see my ticket stub? Only thing I bought a ticket to Spiderman and went into F911. I did not want that asshole to get a dime from me They had an employee checking to make sure that people didn't do what I did! edit to add: ----According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered and defensive. What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a nephew.’” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #299 July 9, 2004 QuoteSergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. OK that's two out of... let me see here 535. Yeah that's a really overwhelming advocation of the Iraq war. Keep trying... - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #300 July 9, 2004 QuoteSergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson, serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11, and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. Turnabout is fair play here... I want exact quotes and exact sites from which you are getting this information. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
