freeflybella 0 #51 June 18, 2004 Ok, Diablopilot. I have to say I LOVE that photo. And not to argue...but, honestly, I think it's a guinea pig... ...with a pancake on its head. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #52 June 18, 2004 HEY! if the guinea pig wants to be a bunny who are you to hold him down. You're just as bad as the MAN. Guinea pigs gotta suffer cause you can't deal with them rising up and becoming sucessful bunny rabbits..... Er.... uh.... ok... I don't know where that was coming from or where it was going.......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #53 June 18, 2004 Jus' tryin' to give some love to the pig! Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #54 June 18, 2004 AN interesting issue... Most Americans realize we are at war, are mad that people are dying, but how many have actually changed their lives because of it? Think about the old days when war killed THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS...in their hometowns...their houses burnt....food burnt and gone...etc.etc. IT is STILL happening, just not in the U.S. Americans aren't eperiencing it. Its very easy for us to sit here and say..."I know there is a War... I don't want people to die" and not really be realistic. I think it is great that America can fight a war and lose by far the minority of lives... and do so trying (in most cases) to save the innocent lives of the people they are fighting. Bless America for that. But face it, people are going to die in a war (many think we need to have a deathless war...I think this clip put me more in touch with reality...with what is going on miles away from here. Let that clip make you thankful that that was not YOUR street. One last thing... I find it interesting that America went to war to "liberate the Iraqis". (one of the supposed motives) That means we went for their sake. Now...many can tell me how many americans died, and many focus on that... but shouldn't we be equally concerned then about the lives of the Iraqis? Do YOU know how many Iraqi's have died? few do. Thanks for that clip. It made me realize what others are going through so that I can sit at home safely typing on my computer. Bless allt he troops out there defending us...and may they come home soon. --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #55 June 18, 2004 A lot of people really don't seem to understand that we are at war and that people die during wars. You're right, at least it isn't similar to what war used to be, carpet bombing entire cities. People seem to forget that the US is trying to do it better with less casualties among our troops and civilians. As far as the death toll in Iraq, it is somewhere in the 10,000s TOTAL... which includes US troops, Iraqi military, Iraqi Police, Civilians, Insurgents, all that. What IS interesting is that insurgents are killing WAY more civilians and Iraqi police than the US is. Go add it up yourself, http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm is an anti-war site that has some "estimated" numbers based on reports. So, with all the care that the US troops are taking, where's all the rage and complaints from the US and Muslim world about the arabs killing arabs? As far as that video shows, you should not try to get off an RPG shot from the middle of a wide open street. Darwin at work. Did you also note that none of the other people around were being fired upon?Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #56 June 18, 2004 QuoteI don't think you have to appologise for posting it but I do think you picked the wrong forum.Well, I was a tad bit insensitve towards those who were sensitive towards that kind of material. I should have put a warning on my first post but I forgot to.QuoteThere is a war on, and all to often we just get the sanitized version and the people back home rarely see the horrors.I concur. As someone else had noted in a later post, the US media tends to water down the real news that occurs. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #57 June 18, 2004 ***Prevent violence, or prevent people from seeing it? As I said above, I think it's important for everyone to see it - not all day long, not every day, but to hide from it as though it doesn't exist doesn't seem right either. As far as preventing it, figure out a realistic way to do so and I'll back you all the way. quote]I agree with you Jimbo. Unfortunately watching clips like this doesn't make me feel better but it sure does make me appreciate my life and the little things in it. It makes you realize that you still have opportunities to do something about violence or speak against it or whatever have you. The bottom line is that you're still alive enough to do something about it or ignore it and pretend that it doesn't exist. Unfortunately, in this lifetime with wars, we experience losses through casualties or through destruction to make a point, defend the weak or make money from it. And that's the world we live in today. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #58 June 21, 2004 "So, with all the care that the US troops are taking, where's all the rage and complaints from the US and Muslim world about the arabs killing arabs? I've been bleating on about Darfur, in Western Sudan for a couple of months, but nobody seems to be interested. Okay different issue, Trent, but lets put things into perspective. Death toll in Iraq will probably settle out at around 20,000 (currently around 18,000), some scenarios for Sudan put the death toll around a million. Back to the chase, because everyone is more interested in Iraq, its difficult to pull out real numbers and attribute the party of the cause of death from the website linked to above. "What IS interesting is that insurgents are killing WAY more civilians and Iraqi police than the US is." I'd agree with you that there are more incidents of insurgency / terrorist action these days, probably grabbing more headlines. However I'd wager the numbers of deaths by insurgents/terrorists are, in total to date, less than the deaths caused by (legitimate?)military strikes. There were about 7,500 civilian deaths up to the cessation of major combat activities, thats about 3/4 of the current total civilian deaths, which is way short of 'way more'. If, however we put aside the collateral damage of the major hostility period of the war (IMO this number was pretty low, reflecting the professionalism of the coalition, but still too many for an unnecessary invasion > different discussion entirely), the responsibility for protecting the civilian population of an occupied country rests with the occupying force, regardless of who is actually killing the civilians. The sooner power is handed over to the interim govt, the better. The malcontents, of course will try and demonstrate this to be a huge failure, and will more than likely step up killings in the next ten days or so. Lastly.. "As far as that video shows, you should not try to get off an RPG shot from the middle of a wide open street. " No argument on that front from me. Neither will I argue that this guy shouldn't have been stopped in the way that he was.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NicoNYC 0 #59 June 21, 2004 QuoteWe have a wonderful tool in video technology and the ability to brodcast to any part of the world in seconds. Let's use it. Let's show what life on the Gaza strip is like, let's show what starvation in Africa is like, let's show how the "underprivilaged" in this country live, let's show how corrupt fat cat burracrats are ripping off our tax dollars, and let's show how some guy in a country thousands of miles away get shot and die in a conflic that you may or may not agree on, but bringing the reality of it to the masses might make people think first before letting things get to this point again. I think EVERYONE in their right mind would rather have peace. I agree and I definitely won't post anything of this type of nature again going forward. How many hits of adrenaline can you take? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffharris 0 #60 June 21, 2004 that looks like more than just a single pancake. i belive it's properly referred to as a "shortstack". maybe iit's just more funny to say there's a bunny with a pancake on its head instead of theres a bunny with a shortstack on it's head? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #61 June 21, 2004 You could be right. Another example of the MAN minimizing the plight of the ginea pig trying to overcome adversity and become a bunny rabbit.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #62 June 21, 2004 To put this controversy to rest, see this site. It is clearly a bunny!! http://www.syberpunk.com/cgi-bin/index.pl?page=oolong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #63 June 21, 2004 QuoteI've been bleating on about Darfur, in Western Sudan for a couple of months, but nobody seems to be interested. Just curious, but what does that have to do with what we're talking about? Not that that isn't a worth topic, I think it is... but my question was "with all the care that the US troops are taking, where's all the rage and complaints from the US and Muslim world about the arabs killing arabs?" QuoteI'd agree with you that there are more incidents of insurgency / terrorist action these days, probably grabbing more headlines. However I'd wager the numbers of deaths by insurgents/terrorists are, in total to date, less than the deaths caused by (legitimate?)military strikes. There were about 7,500 civilian deaths up to the cessation of major combat activities, thats about 3/4 of the current total civilian deaths, which is way short of 'way more'. So where did you get THOSE numbers? The only reason I even referenced "iraqbodycount" was because it seems to be where many of the anti-war people get their info. Just doing a little quick and dirty math, it looks like insurgents have more civilian (non-military) blood on their hands. Many times (on that site), whether or not the "civilians" who were killed were really civilians is in dispute (in my opinion anyway). (people in civilian clothes do bad things like you see in the video... all that) Quotethe responsibility for protecting the civilian population of an occupied country rests with the occupying force, regardless of who is actually killing the civilians. The sooner power is handed over to the interim govt, the better. The malcontents, of course will try and demonstrate this to be a huge failure, and will more than likely step up killings in the next ten days or so. I agree that the sooner control is handed over the better, but I also think that it should not be handed over until the Iraqi govt is ready to deal with the terrorists. Otherwise we'll have another Taliban in short order. The other thing I take issue with is that it IS partly the responsibility of the coalition to provide security to the people, but we cannot ignore that the people need to take some of the responsibility for their own security by reporting known militants and passing along intel that will lead to their arrest. And let's not lose the fact that the REAL blame for deaths from militants lies with the scumbag militants themselves. That cannot be overlooked.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #64 June 21, 2004 That is disturbed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #65 June 21, 2004 Yay for Oolong! A scandal is avoided! Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #66 June 21, 2004 QuoteRPG: $3,000 Camcorder: $600 Fucking with US Marines who don't even want to be in your God-forsaken country: $ Priceless. hehehe Nice shootin' and good riddance! mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #67 June 22, 2004 "what does that have to do with what we're talking about?" Darfur is all about Arab (Janjaweed) militia killing their locals, on a really ugly scale, with (Sudanese) government support and funding. It highlights your point in that nobody really listens, seems to care, or even shouts about it. "So where did you get THOSE numbers?" At the front page of the site you linked to, In the middle of the page, " includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase prior to May 1st 2003" For easy counting lets call that 7,500, which is 3/4 of the total civilian death toll reported. Not that I like to approximate human suffering like this, it just makes the math easier. So, even if we attribute all civilian death since may last year to the insurgents, the coalition still killed 3 times as many as they have to date. I think the point you are trying to make is that the baddies are doing it more right now. I would agree that since the cessation of the major combat phase, the cause of civilian death is quite likely to be largely attributable to local malcontents, and there are probably more instances of terrorism, its just that we were much more deadly than they currently are. "I take issue with is that it IS partly the responsibility of the coalition to provide security to the people," As far as I am aware, it is entirely the responsibility of the occupying force. Providing an effective native security system just makes the transition to a local authority easier. The coalition are doing a reasonable job in a difficult situation in this respect. "And let's not lose the fact that the REAL blame for deaths from militants lies with the scumbag militants themselves." Yep. Its just that we are charged with stopping them, for the next ten days or so anyway. There's also a fair discussion on all this on the site, eg... "When warring factions engage one another in civilian areas both are to blame for the non-combatant deaths that occur and both are liable for investigation for war crimes, especially if they were aware of the civilian presence. Even civilians deliberately put in harm's way cannot be the sole responsibility of only one side in a conflict because if it takes one side to put up unwilling "human shields," it takes the other to knowingly shoot through them; and "partial blame" is still "blame." Moreover it is a dubious notion indeed that, provided they loudly proclaim the justness of their cause, aggressor nations can launch wars and absolve themselves of any responsibility for the ensuing mayhem, carnage and horror." Anyways, one thing that did surprise me in all this data mining, there's been a pretty high number of US Med-evacs, almost 12,000. Oooh, and the total death toll is around the 18,000 mark. http://www.infoshout.com/the_toll.htm The other thing that came as a bit of a surprise is that whole Prescott Bush story http://www.infoshout.com/factoid.htm, I'm surprised people aren't making a big thing about this, if its true. If its untrue, it kinda undermines the source of all this data and its discussion..-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #68 June 26, 2004 Okay, it took me a while, but I went throught the IBC list and "kinda" classified events as best I could by who likely did it. Take a look: Who Dunnit Min Max Not Sure 497 579 Both 175 236 Militants 1316 1356 Coalition 1902 2474 Generalized 5546 6672 Not Sure = things like "gunfire" or "bomb" with no target listed Both = events where casualties listed as "crossfire" or civilian killed during US - Iraqi fighting. Militants = Things like "suicide bomb" "RPG fire" "roadside bomb" and targets listed as Iraqi police or US or foreign military or workers. Coalition = "air strike" "heavy artillery" etc. and attacks occuring at checkpoints. Generalized = This one is where there are only aggregate claims of casualties. Many from the first stages of the war, very possible that these aren't ALL civilian deaths. Some of these claims have very high differences between min and max. OF COURSE, this is only my view since I went through the stats myself. I tried to be honest and fair. Interesting given the past conversation. I can email a complete spreadsheet if anyone wants to see what I did.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #69 June 28, 2004 "Interesting given the past conversation." Indeed it is, the 10,000 casualties mentioned on the IBC website, and the 7350 appear not to tally, or the numbers are indeed misleading. As PM'd I'd like a look at your spreadsheet, not to chuck rocks at you, but to get to the truth, which is often bent by those at extreme ends of the political spectrum. Thanks for taking the time and effort to help get to the bottom of all this.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
