Here's your sovereignty............psyche!!!

[Kennedy 0]

Statement: Unelected leaders are capable of establishing a democracy
Example: founding fathers of the US

Rebuttal: Are the situations the same?

Initial reaction: No one claimed they were the same, you *#$%^&



Come on kallend, they had just thrown off one of the most powerful one of the world's most powerful militaries. They also existed in a space where there was no significant threat of invasion by nearby foreign powers. The Iraqis don't have the luxury of starting out far from influence. They also had help in ousting their oppressor.

Conclusion: The situations are not the same; however, this does not invalidate the statement that unelected men can bring about a democracy

In addition: it helps when the "world's most powerful military power occupying their country" is intent on seeing democracy, since the powers surrounding them are not.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

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The USSR used to claim that the governments of Poland, Hungary etc. were not puppet governments. Wasn't true then, either.

OK, professor, once again, how about you illustrate the similarities of the two situations, or give us some examples of how the two are comparable?

I am so tired of insults and comparisons that are not explained, documented, or justified. You want to spout off about US being like cold war Soviets? BACK IT UP.

You are surely kidding.

But I'll spell it out for you anyway:

The USSR installed puppet governments hand picked by them in the countries of eastern Europe. The Red Army ensured "security". Maybe you are too young to remember Budapest and Warsaw 1956, Prague 1968.

The US hand picked a puppet government to install in Kabul. The US Army remains in Afghanistan to ensure "security".

The US is hand picking a puppet government to install in Baghdad June 30. Chalabi displeased the US, so he's discarded. The US Army will remain in Iraq to ensure "security".

If you CHOOSE not to see the parallel, well, there's none so blind as those that will not see.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

Basically, so what?
Crips and Bloods shoot people sometimes.
Cops and Sheriffs shoot people sometimes.

By your logic (or lack thereof), law officers must have exactly the same motives as gang bangers because they took similar actions.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

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Basically, so what?
Crips and Bloods shoot people sometimes.
Cops and Sheriffs shoot people sometimes.

By your logic (or lack thereof), law officers must have exactly the same motives as gang bangers because they took similar actions.

Now you're being silly.

IT IS A PUPPET GOVERNMENT. We choose its members, we have a bloody great army in the country to back up our requirements. We throw out those, like Chalabi, that displease us.

The interim Iraqi government is 100% dependent on us. How much more "puppet" can you get?

It waddles like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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IT IS A PUPPET GOVERNMENT.

The interim Iraqi government is 100% dependent on us. How much more "puppet" can you get?

key word here: INTERIM

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

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IT IS A PUPPET GOVERNMENT.

The interim Iraqi government is 100% dependent on us. How much more "puppet" can you get?

key word here: INTERIM

Key descriptor: PUPPET

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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key word here: INTERIM

Key descriptor: PUPPET

You have a better idea? Another way to encourage democracy? Or an easier way to grant the Iraqis security and self determination?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

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key word here: INTERIM

Key descriptor: PUPPET

You have a better idea? Another way to encourage democracy? Or an easier way to grant the Iraqis security and self determination?

Time machine. Go back 15 months and start over.
When people with impeccable conservative records like George Will and William Safire are starting to fault Bush for poor planning and execution, don't you think it's time to sit up and take notice?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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Time machine. Go back 15 months and start over.

Yeah, well, you're the physics professor here. When you tell me that's an option, maybe you'll have something new to contribute. Until then, since you have nothing other hatred for the president, go away.

The political theory of kallend:

no matter what else happens, everything is Bush's fault.

I asked you if you had a better way.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[nacmacfeegle 0]

No point crying over spilt milk, so we have to sort this mess out, pronto style.
The "Puppet" administration will be in place until proper democratic processes can be put in place.
It is currently anticipated that free elections for a non-western influenced Iraqi administration will be held in January next year.
Even I have to agree (see further up the thread) that a non-elected interim administration will have to be appointed, the sooner the better IMHO.

The alternative would be to appoint a UN based peace keeping administration (thereby silencing critics that might suggest a western influence on the interim administration), but sadly the UN moves with glacier-like agility, its unstoppable, ultimately powerful, but not exactly swift.

Now then, the extent of the powers of the interim administration are up for discussion.....
EG do they have the power of veto over US led military operations into places like Fallujah for example. Another example of uncertainty might be the trial of Saddam. What laws apply, and who can be appointed to ensure that he gets a fair hearing. Regardless of how bad a guy he is, the trial will have to be seen to be providing justice, as opposed to a lynch mob, or kangaroo court. Thats the civilised way to do things.

The handover of authority in Iraq has to be carefully staged, otherwise the local malcontents will see cause to challenge the authority in the only way they can, and we all know what that entails.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kallend 1,647]

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Time machine. Go back 15 months and start over.

Yeah, well, you're the physics professor here. When you tell me that's an option, maybe you'll have something new to contribute. Until then, since you have nothing other hatred for the president, go away.

The political theory of kallend:

no matter what else happens, everything is Bush's fault.

I asked you if you had a better way.

Let's see. Bush took us into an unnecessary war with botched and manipulated intelligence, poor planning, overly optimistic expectations ("we'll be there up to 6 months"), inadequate troop strength (according to the generals), Polyanna like expectations of our reception by the Iraqis, diverted us from the war on terror, helped Al Qaeda's recruiting campaign, got hundreds of our kids killed, spent hundreds of billions of dollars that he doesn't have, ran up an all time record deficit...

and you expect ME to come up with a fix?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"and you expect ME to come up with a fix?"

Any chance of a time machine then John?
We will go back and try to prevent this whole debacle. Mind you we did try the first time round but no-one listened then either.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kallend 1,647]

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"and you expect ME to come up with a fix?"

Any chance of a time machine then John?
We will go back and try to prevent this whole debacle. Mind you we did try the first time round but no-one listened then either.

Well, I can honestly say "I told you so".

Trouble is, the people we told are still in denial.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,647]

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I asked you if you had a better way.

OK, I've a solution:

1. Cheney resigns as VP
2. Bush appoints Powell VP
3. Bush resigns, Powell becomes President. Blair resigns.
4. Powell fires Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Ashcroft
5. Powell apologises for the errors of the dicredited Bush administration, asks NATO and UN for help.
6. NATO and the UN bale out the US and UK.
7. The people of Iraq greet American tourists with flowers.
8. Powell awarded Nobel Peace Prize.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

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While the unelected founding fathers were doing this, did they have the world's most powerful military power occupying their country?

No. So what?

I'll tell you what, that means they were sovereign. That's what this argument is about.

And you seem to keep arguing that we can't just give them total sovereignty, whamo, just like that on 6/30. Guess what, no one here has disagreed with you.

The point is, GWB, please stop talking out of your ass, telling lies, and destroying our nations credibility.

[nigel99 147]

Good idea in principle except for

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3. Bush resigns, Powell becomes President. Blair resigns.

because then Gordon Brown becomes PM and labour stays in power for another term = my tax's will kill me off

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Kennedy 0]

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The political theory of kallend:

no matter what happens, everything is Bush's fault.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 1,647]

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Quote

The political theory of kallend:

no matter what happens, everything is Bush's fault.

You're a slow learner, but you're catching on at last.

Interestingly, a number of prominent conservatives are beginning to agree with me too. Have you read the recent articles by George Will and William Safire (I don't count Pat Buchanan any more).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nigel99 147]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=525308

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The Bush administration was accused yesterday of undermining the work of the UN envoy attempting to put together an interim Iraqi government, by suggesting that a respected nuclear scientist was tipped to be prime minister.

Not sure if he came with strings though

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[PhillyKev 0]

As soon as they did that Shahristani held a press conference saying he wasn't interested in that or any other gov't position.

[PhillyKev 0]

Powell: Iraq Will Have No Veto on U.S.-Led Force