katzas 0 #1 March 30, 2014 Can anyone shed any light on why we still use ripcords to open a reserve container? I cut my teeth on ripcord opened mains waaay back when and can readily understand why the hand deployed pilot chute for a main is superior. But having said that, we still use ripcords for reserves. Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #2 March 30, 2014 Routing. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #3 March 30, 2014 Spring-loaded pilot-chutes are not the most reliable way to deploy main canopies. If you are stable, main pilot-chutes often hesitate on your back. They fell out of fashion during the wing-wars of the late 1970s, when huge jump-suits caused huge burbles and too many pilot-chute hesitations. The solution was to develop hand-deployed pilot-chutes that are tossed off to the SIDE of the burble. HD PCs deploy far more consistently. The second round of the wing-wars now (since 2000) sees people jumping wing-suits so huge that one guy has survived landing a wing suit (without deploying a chute) ... and talk about holy huge burbles!!!!! Spring-loaded main PCs would never work consistently with large wing-suits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfdoc00 0 #4 March 30, 2014 Spring loaded pilot chutes are still in fashion for some. The MC-4 HALO/HAHO military platform is ripcord deployed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #5 March 30, 2014 Many DZs - and national organisations - insist on Automatic Activation Devices. All modern AADs require some kind of internal spring to start deployment. While it might be possible to design an AAD around a mortar (ballistic recovery system) or slug gun (ejection seat) it would be expensive and dangerous to innocent bystanders when deployed on the ground. When I get rich, I plan to develop an AAD based on the air-bags now installed in most cars. The gas-generating cartridge (out of the air-bag) will be installed in the pilot-chute and will propel the pilot-chute out to line-stretch. Try to picture a Vector 2 reserve pilot-chute with a bag case of flatulence! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katzas 0 #6 March 30, 2014 Yup--I have firsthand knowledge of pilot chute hesitation. Jumping a Para Commander I pulled and expected to feel the familiar tug. Nothing. But I could feel something tapping my back. I looked over my shoulder and saw the pilot chute lying on my back flipping back and forth. A second later it caught air and took off for a normal deployment. No big deal--but a lesson learned. I just figured a reserve could be opened with a hand-deploy pilot chute just like the main--but I get the message with regard to an AAD deployment. You need something to drag the reserve out of the container if your AAD fires. Well, live and learn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #7 March 30, 2014 Setting the AAD issue aside. Where would you place the reserve PC so that it can be deployed ether before or after the main. Think about bridle and riser routing. It has been done by placing the reserve PC high on the shoulder or behind the neck. Not the most convenient location. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #8 March 30, 2014 what was that rig that had the hand deploy pilot chute on the right side next to your neck? was that a home made or a production rig?Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 March 30, 2014 There was an Australian rig called the Woomera if I remember correctly that had that system.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #10 March 30, 2014 A throw out reserve would probably add significant complexity to the RSL.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
katzas 0 #11 March 30, 2014 Well--good question. Could you put a pouch like a BOC pouch on one side of the main canopy container? My first ram air rig had a pouch on the right leg strap but the bridle was exposed and held down by velcro. Never had a problem with it--and truth be told I liked that location better than the bottom of my container where I can't see it and it takes an awkward arm motion to reach it. How many vids of students have we all seen where the student is groping around trying to find the hackey? But I digress. That doesn't solve the AAD issue though because if the AAD fired and cut the loop the bridle is still attached to the pilot chute that is in the pouch. Not pretty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,072 #12 March 30, 2014 Hi kat, As mentioned above, the only ( known to me anyway ) rig that had a throwout reserve pilot chute was built in Australia. The pouch was located just at the left shoulder with the handle just below the left shoulder. I used to have the manual for this rig but no longer. One problem with any location other than near the front is if you should get one arm incapacitated then you may not be able to deploy the reserve. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #13 March 30, 2014 On the main tray, like a left sided BOC doesn't really work. Think about it. There is a loop formed by the risers/canopy all the way from the three rings down to the bottom of the rig. The reserve, at least in it's present location is with in that loop. You basically can't have any thing crossing that loop when the main lifts or vice versa when the reserve lift off your back. Same classic problem you run into when trying to build a tirsh rig. There are possibly ways to build a container with a hand deploy reserve which could have an AAD. It would involve a multi path deployment system. Where basically the Free bag would be a part of the container. You throw the hand deploy and it releases and lifts the whole reserve tray, AAD, spring loaded PC and all. Alternatively The AAD cuts a loop opening the tray and lifts the inner bad to line stretch. It would be complicated. I think... I could do it. Of course the obvious choice for a hand deploy reserve is to build a chest mount where neither canopy interferes with the other. Done that. Or you could just stick with a rip cord which allows you to remotely activate the reserve from a very convenient handle on your chest. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 31 #14 March 30, 2014 katzasCan anyone shed any light on why we still use ripcords to open a reserve container? I cut my teeth on ripcord opened mains waaay back when and can readily understand why the hand deployed pilot chute for a main is superior. But having said that, we still use ripcords for reserves. Why? Because of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mindset ?!"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #15 March 30, 2014 JerryBaumchenHi kat, As mentioned above, the only ( known to me anyway ) rig that had a throwout reserve pilot chute was built in Australia. The pouch was located just at the left shoulder with the handle just below the left shoulder. I used to have the manual for this rig but no longer. One problem with any location other than near the front is if you should get one arm incapacitated then you may not be able to deploy the reserve. JerryBaumchen .............................................................................. Yes, the Woomera's reserve ripcord is left-hand dominant, but you could still pull it with your right hand ... sort of like a lot of RSLs. You can pull a lot of RSLs with your opposite hand. I have deployed both RWS and Strong tandem reserves (on the ground) merely by pulling on the RSL. I quit pulling RSLs after I kinked a few steel reserve ripcord cables. Since no strands were broken, I returned them to service, but they were not longer pretty. Since the Woomera's reserve ripcord is inboard of the main risers, it does not matter whether the main is gone ... or still packed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #16 March 30, 2014 RiggerLeeOn the main tray, like a left sided BOC doesn't really work. Think about it. There is a loop formed by the risers/canopy all the way from the three rings down to the bottom of the rig. The reserve, at least in it's present location is with in that loop. You basically can't have any thing crossing that loop when the main lifts or vice versa when the reserve lift off your back. Same classic problem you run into when trying to build a tirsh rig. There are possibly ways to build a container with a hand deploy reserve which could have an AAD. It would involve a multi path deployment system. Where basically the Free bag would be a part of the container. You throw the hand deploy and it releases and lifts the whole reserve tray, AAD, spring loaded PC and all. Alternatively The AAD cuts a loop opening the tray and lifts the inner bad to line stretch. It would be complicated. I think... I could do it. Of course the obvious choice for a hand deploy reserve is to build a chest mount where neither canopy interferes with the other. Done that. Or you could just stick with a rip cord which allows you to remotely activate the reserve from a very convenient handle on your chest. Lee ......................................................................... Next you are going to tell us to re-introduce pack-opening-bands ... to pull the reserve side flaps clear of the soft, reserve pilot-chute. Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #17 March 30, 2014 Well... we are having PC hesitation problems with AAD fires. Think about it. Pack opening bands - Set your pilot chute free! LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianyapxw 0 #18 March 31, 2014 So are pilot chute hesitations a realistic problem for reserves? When people say reserves "are more reliable", they are not referring to the pilot chute hesitations? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #19 March 31, 2014 There have been some fatalities where the reserve did not open in time from a cypress fire. One theory is that the Pc is not launching when the cypress unit fires. The loop is not released from the top where all the flaps can just slip off the end of it as the PC pushes on the from bellow. In stead the cutter severs the loop deep within the pack job and the remnants of the loop caught on the end of the rip cord lock the flaps as the PC tries to push it's way through them The tail has to be pulled up through the pilot chute and run through all of the grommets like pulleys as the grommets spread. Depending on how deep the loop is cut this can cause significant hesitations in the PC clearing the flaps of the container or even locking it closed. Lot's of threads on this. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianyapxw 0 #20 March 31, 2014 Thanks for the reply. But in the cases of high speed mals, if I pull red then silver, should I be worried that I would get a pilot chute hesitation? It seems less reliable than my main pilot chute (which gets thrown to the side). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #21 March 31, 2014 In the event of a high speed mal, bag lock for example. You would be pulling the ripcord. PC launch well when you pull the ripcord. And you're standing up so the PC is launching almost horizontally so it's actually in good air, no burble hesitation. And you've got some speed so little chance of towing the PC. On the whole it's a pretty good scenario as long as you act promptly. See, I'm not always doom and gloom. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianyapxw 0 #22 March 31, 2014 Sorry for whuffo question as I'm still a student, but in a D-bag lock won't you still be belly to earth and launching the pilot chute into your own burble? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #23 March 31, 2014 Between the snatch force of the bag hitting line stretch and the drag of the PC it generally flips you up onto your ass. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #24 March 31, 2014 Worrying about a reserve pilot-chute hesitation is more likely to kill you than an actual RPCH, because he who hesitates inherits the earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianyapxw 0 #25 March 31, 2014 But how about pilot chute in tow, will that tip your body position, though I'm starting to see the practicality of a reserve ripcord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
