Looking to learn the ropes around Toronto

[Keithor 0]

I'm wondering if there is a rigger that would be willing to supervise some or 10 reserve re-packs for me. I would really like to take the rigger A course being held in February and need to have the re-packs signed off before the course starts.

I have at least 1 rig that I can bring to do a re-pack on and might have a second. I can also provide a space for the re-packs that is heated and in Whitby. I'd be willing to pay for the re-packs and someones time (or beer).

Thanks,
Keith

[theonlyski 3]

Keithor

I'm wondering if there is a rigger that would be willing to supervise some or 10 reserve re-packs for me. I would really like to take the rigger A course being held in February and need to have the re-packs signed off before the course starts.

I have at least 1 rig that I can bring to do a re-pack on and might have a second. I can also provide a space for the re-packs that is heated and in Whitby. I'd be willing to pay for the re-packs and someones time (or beer).

Thanks,
Keith

Check with the course director for the Rigger-A course you're planning on attending and make sure they have no problem with you getting all of your repacks signed off before the course.

Good luck! It's a lot more than just packing a reserve (actually, that's one of the easy parts!)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[riggerrob 558]

I may not be the course director, but I will probably teach a few of the lectures.
Our biggest problem - during our last Rigger A course - was candidates who arrived with fewer than eight pack jobs. They found themselves over-loaded and struggled to complete the course.
The only disadvantage to studying too much before the course, is if you chose a mentor who teaches a technique radically different than the manufacturers recommends.

... er ... the final test standard includes "... must resemble the manufacturers' instructions ..."

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Rob,

You and I have some history, and I believe I (amongst many of the other course participants on my rigger course) were the reason CSPA rewrote the CSPA course recently. I'm not about to rehash all of that again, but:

Are you telling me that AFTER the fiasco that we all called a rigger course happened, and AFTER the course was re-written as a result, CSPA is still allowing people on the course without the proper time/skills/pre-reqs (or language requirements)?

All I can say is "WOW". I'm terribly sorry for the people out there getting reserve repacks from these potentially unqualified riggers. This scares the hell out of me and makes me incredibly glad that I am able to do my own repacks.

If the candidate:
-Does not speak the language of the course
-Does not have a B License
-Does not have the required pre-reqs
-Does not exhibit the skills/maturity
THEY SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED TO TAKE THE COURSE...PERIOD

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed!

[Keithor 0]

The riggerA course was posted in Nov. I ahve not done 10 supervised re-packs but meet the other CSPA requirements for the course. I have been in contact with the course director about what else I will need and am making every possible effort Including going to a forum to try to find someone to help me.

I'm defending my actions because I somehow feel that you are displeased with the fact I am trying to take a course without "your" pre-requsites. The CSPA's own website says the 10 supervised re-pack can be done before, during, or after the course. The course director has asked for them to be completed prior to the course. If you comment was not directed at me I am sorry for taking it that way.

Just an FYI I am now working with a rigger to get my supervised packs completed prior to the course. Who happens to live 2.5 hours away.

I can certainly appreciate why the course director would want this done vefore hand as it took almost 3 hours to do the first re-pack. Not to mention half the reason I signed up for the course was to learn more about gear etc. It is a lot for a wuffo

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Wasn't directed at you at all.

REALLY long story short, when I took my rigger A course, there were people who didn't speak english (and the course was only taught in english), those same 3 people all had less than 20 jumps, the least being 7 I think (This means that none had their B's, let alone their A's. Most of the students hadn't the slightest clue about gear/rigging as they had zero experience in the sport. The course material was WAY outdated, and it was all open book. I finished my exam in around 2 hours, and we were supposed to have a max of 4 (I believe), so I went jumping to let everyone else finish. Went and did a few jumps, came back, no one was out yet (and this was 4-5 hours later). Sat in the exam room for a while (it was warmer than outside) and was shocked that the instructor was going through the exam question by question with most of the students. During the practical portion the instructor wasn't in the room, and when he came back in hours later, he asked the Rigger B candidate (who was assisting the course) how they did. They exchanged a single sentence and the instructor walked over to the student and congratulated them for passing the course. I wasn't even asked to do a practical, they looked at my container that I had packed earlier in the week and congratulated me. (There much more that happened, but that's what I recall and the bigger things).

Basically, the course was a COMPLETE SHIT SHOW and I felt cheated that I actually put effort into it as it is a very important role in the sport and cost me a decent amount of coin, 7 days off work, plus meals out for 8 days. Had nothing changed, you would be able to still just pay your monies, fake your logbook, don't bother taking the week off work and then collect your rigger rating at the end of the week and call yourself a Rigger A. Just like a vending machine!

Needless to say, I wrote a MASSIVE (probably 30 page email) to CSPA, the instructor and a few others and lo and behold...a new rigger program came to be. So, in a way, you can thank me (I know...what an ass&ole) for the extra work you've had to put into getting a rigger rating, but I'm confident that the nonsense that occurred on my course (and probably many others before it), will not occur again (I hope). The side effect being that "hopefully" CSPA is outputting better riggers since we already have a pretty shitty rap against the FAA rating.

So, nothing to do with you man...promise. I couldn't make this shit up if I tried.

FWIW: I entered the rigger course with 14 packjobs over the course of 2 years working with a local VERY experienced rigger. I studied my ass off for months before the course and tried to learn everything I could before the course. I also had 400ish jumps before I took the course. Not mocking anyone for taking it earlier, but there is a benefit to having some experience and I think there should be a time in sport requirement too. Maybe at least a year or 2.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Keithor 0]

I appreciate the effort in getting things changed.

I wasn't too offended, I've learned to ask a question before that happens.

Thanks

[riggerrob 558]

Yes,

One of the problems was that a CSPA Course Facilitator (from Quebec) sent those under-experienced candidates. I will never take his advice seriously again.

It was more those candidates slow learning styles that dragged things out. Some were more interested in discussing DZ politics than the finer points of folding reserves.
In comparison, during a recent course - in Switzerland - two glider pilots arrived with zero experience packing parachutes, but they worked hard all week (packing ten PEPs each) and by the end of the week passed written and practical packing tests to earn Swiss certification pack emergency parachutes (round canopies only) for glider pilots.
The second problem was a long-out-of-date written exam. Part of the problem was the precisely-worded answers required to pass that exam. When you returned, I have already skimmed through all the exams and concluded that most of the candidates understood the material, but had difficulty with the precise phrasing. (How many of you remember how to spell "Gurley Porosometer?")

After that course, I refused to teach any more courses to the old exam. Since I was CSPA's busiest Rigger Instructor, the Canadian rigger training program stalled until the Technical Committee got a new chair.
The third problem was language. The course language was not decided until the first morning of the course. Given the location of the course - Eastern Ontario - I was half-expecting to teach the course in French. Staff languages included: English, French, German and Spanish. I was deeply disappointed to discover that a lone, uni-lingual, English-only candidate was going to slow down the rest of the class.

As it turned out, the slowest (French as mother tongue) candidate decided to write the final exam in English and his answers were all legible.

In comparison, I recently taught a rigger course in Switzerland. Spoken languages included: English, French, German, Spanish and Serbian. Since that canton is primarily French-speaking, half of the instruction was in French, 40 percent in English, with a bit in German. Usually I would explain something in French, then scan the class to see if it had sunk in, then repeat it in English or German for the only student who did not understand French. By the end of the second day, another student was usually translating my words into German as I caught my breath. She insisted on writing her exam in English.
Similarly, we had one candidate who only understood French, so sometimes I had to repeat fragments of my lectures in French. Naturally, he wrote his exam in French.

In case I sound like a multi-lingual snob, remember that I was always at the bottom of my class in high school, and really only learned to speak French after I joined the army. I only learned to speak German during a military posting to West Germany, and I only learned the basics of Spanish after working in Southern California parachute factories for a few years. Bottom line, I am a slow learner when it comes to languages.

As for you not having to pack a reserve as a practical exam ... earlier in the week, you demonstrated sufficient skill, that you passed the practical exam by mid-week.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Thanks for the additional info Rob, I actually never knew a couple of the things you posted. I wasn't going to identify the instructor, but since you've claimed the title...

As far as going through the exam, regardless of the students comprehension or ability to spell, I don't think anyone should have gone through the exam question by question. Many people wrote that exam before those students and as far as I know, weren't walked through the exam. I'm just going to leave this one alone now. I've made my peace.

I will say that I am ultra happy that CSPA modified how the course works, updated some of the material, the exam etc. I was actually a bit surprised that no one from CSPA contacted me for additional details, told me that changes would be made, thanked me for letting them know, asked me to participate.contribute etc. I'm certain I pissed a few people off, but a rigger rating shouldn't be like you A or B license exam. It should closely mirror the rigor of going for your PFF rating and have similar pre-requisites. It was all done for the greater good of our jumping community and will hopefully prevent a fatality some day.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[riggerrob 558]

Chris,

You succeeded in making the old T&SC chair VERY ANGRY!

The new chair is in the process of completely revising how CSPA trains riggers.

We have already taught a couple of new Rigger A courses and one Rigger RA1 course. I also taught the first version of the PEP block of instruction (part of the new Rigger RA2 course) during a Senior Rigger course in Switzerland.

The new Rigger A written exam is now all open-book, but candidates have to write down WHERE they found the answer. Ironically, looking up page numbers takes - most candidates - longer than a simple closed-book exam.
Hah!
Hah!

We are also formalizing pre-course quizzes and pre-course homework to better familiarize candidates with references.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

In all honesty, it's unfortunate that he chose to let it anger him. I would like to believe that had I been the chair and received that much feedback, I would have taken it as a positive and indication that change needed to happen. It's not what you "want" to hear, but it's what you "should" be hearing.

Again, I'm glad it invoked change, regardless of whom I upset. Certifying under-qualified riggers isn't something to be taken lightly.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Kiethor. Hopefully you'll enjoy the course and go on to become a well respected rigger. Tonroto has some fantastic riggers, and many of them are at your same home DZ. Spend lots of time there befriending these people...they're you're mentors.

"When once you have tasted flight..."