CrazyIvan 0 #51 July 9, 2003 QuoteI should go visit a slaughterhouse for inspiration If you do that, stop by a bullfight too.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #52 July 9, 2003 Rodeo's are not cruel. I have posted a bull riding picture of mine here before. It bothers me when animal activists get bent out of shape about silly things like bull riding because it takes away their credibility. On the other hand being purely of Spanish descent where bull fighting originated and is still done on a daily basis, I must say that it is the only thing for which I am not proud of Spain. I think its extremely inhumane and I don't admire any "courage" involved in it. I do however love the songs Manolo Escobar sings about it. I just do my best not to think to closely about what he is glorifying.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #53 July 9, 2003 See attachment. "The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." gulla-bull.wav Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #54 July 9, 2003 Theres has been incidents in Espana when the Matador has been alittle excessive and some of the crowd have beat him up because of it.Your exactly right,its all about Tradition ,courage pride and skill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #55 July 9, 2003 Quote Rodeo's are not cruel. I have posted a bull riding picture of mine here before. It bothers me when animal activists get bent out of shape about silly things like bull riding because it takes away their credibility. On the other hand being purely of Spanish descent where bull fighting originated and is still done on a daily basis, I must say that it is the only thing for which I am not proud of Spain. I think its extremely inhumane and I don't admire any "courage" involved in it. I do however love the songs Manolo Escobar sings about it. I just do my best not to think to closely about what he is glorifying. Thanks for the input, Bruno... It's good to hear a perspective from someone of purely Spanish descent... Now I am trying to find samples of Manolo Escobar's music on the Internet, but I'm having a hard time since all the websites are in Spanish. I don't speak the language, but I love the music - now that's a part of Spanish culture that I can really respect... and maybe sometimes not being able to understand the words is a good thing ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #56 July 9, 2003 QuoteI want horse burger! Horse it will be then! I'll bet we could even get jraf to cook it up for us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #57 July 9, 2003 If you can get on Kazaa and do a search on his name you will be able to pull up a lot of it. Buying cd's of his music is very difficult because it has to come from Europe. Typically only Spanish people are interested in his music (his lyrics are extremely nationalist) and there aren't enough Spanish people in the U.S. for music stores to carry it. "Que Viva España" La gente canta con ardor "Que Viva España" La vida tiene otro Sabor Y España es lo Mejor Que España es la Mejor ! I grew up listening to it mainly because I was born there and because my parents lived 6 years there so they established there collection before returning to the U.S.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #58 July 9, 2003 QuoteTheres has been incidents in Espana when the Matador has been alittle excessive and some of the crowd have beat him up because of it.Your exactly right,its all about Tradition ,courage pride and skill. Yup, same thing in some southamerican countries that are big on bullfights.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #59 July 9, 2003 Quote When the picadores have had their turn with the bull, the bugle sounds for banderillas. These are tiny steel points to which are attached many coloured ribbons or papers, which are stuck in the fleshy portion of the bull's neck by the banderilleros, who await his coming in the centre of the ring, facing him with arms extended. These, and many other tricks, such as el salto de la garrocha, etc., besides giving incident and variety to the spectacle, have as their object to weaken the enormous strength of the bull, so as to render possible and less dangerous the work of the matador—not, as many imagine, to infuriate the bull still more. When the presiding officer gives the signal for the death of the bull, the matador draws near the bull with the muleta in his left hand and the sword in his right hand; he calls the bull to him, or throws himself upon him, and plunges the sword into the neck of the bull. If he strikes him in the nape of the neck, killing him instantly, it is called descabellar, but if the bull is simply wounded the puntillero puts an end to his life with a dagger. The music now strikes up, while two little mules, richly caparisoned, drag out the bull and the dead horses. This is repeated again and again, the number of bulls being usually eight for each corrida. This is taken from an article on a Catholic website that is actually somewhat defending the morality of bullfights (because they are not intended to hurt humans) While the bullfight may have originated out of necessity and at one time did prove courage, it seems to me that it has now turned into an unnecessary spectacle and no longer demonstrates courage at all. (How macho is it to kill a bull that has already been weakened by others? A gang of men against one bull doesn't seem very courageous to me...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #60 July 9, 2003 >That's not true, bullfighting is about tradition, courage, pride and >skills, no respetable bullfighter would allow that. If you truly believe that, look up the meaning of the word "picador." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #61 July 9, 2003 QuoteWhile the bullfight may have originated out of necessity and at one time did prove courage, it seems to me that it has now turned into an unnecessary spectacle and no longer demonstrates courage at all. (How macho is it to kill a bull that has already been weakened by others? A gang of men against one bull doesn't seem very courageous to me...) I have to add one thing, you can PARDON a bull, when the animal shows extraordinary strength or agility, is lured back to the stables to continue his bull business. Regarding demonstrating courage, do this, get in a 'Ruedo' with a bull and tell me how do you feel.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #62 July 9, 2003 >Seeing how people (who somehow think a kittens/puppy/bull's life is > worth more than fish's, turkey's, or cow's) fawn over their kittens, > before sittings down to a turkey dinner is one of the most annoying > things ever. Some life IS more valuable than others. Dogs are more valuable, more protected, more loved, closer to humans etc than ants are. That's just life. Our feelings of mercy, humanity, compassion etc are, in general, reserved for those animals that are like us, and that we perceive have feelings similar to ours. Dogs, cats, apes, dolphins etc fall under this category. We feel a kinship with them; we think they are like us and can feel pain and sorrow in a similar way. Squirrels, rats, cows, goats are less so. Insects - not at all. Personally, I kill ants and flies without thinking about it, but I'll give spiders one chance to escape before I smash them. Rodents I'll use live traps for, and if I see an injured cat or dog, I'll do what I can to help them. Is there anything objective that says a dog's life is more valuable than an ant's? No. Just how we perceive the world to be. That's fine with me; I'd rather live in a world with more, rather than less, compassion. It makes the world a better place overall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #63 July 9, 2003 And one more interesting story from an American who went to a bullfight in Spain: http://www.gregssandbox.com/places/spain/bull.htm Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now too.... Next thing you know I'm gonna turn into a damn activist or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #64 July 9, 2003 QuoteAnd one more interesting story from an American who went to a bullfight in Spain Weak bull, lousy bullfight, but hey...nothing is perfect.__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #65 July 9, 2003 Quote "Que Viva España" La gente canta con ardor "Que Viva España" La vida tiene otro Sabor Y España es lo Mejor Que España es la Mejor ! Ostias tio que lo que provoca darle a esa gandul es un par de ostias pa' que se calle la boca. Asi que no le des mas pasta para el caldo del coche de esa gilipollas.....Y a los toros se ha dicho! hehehehee"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyros1 0 #66 July 10, 2003 Finally, is this bull dead??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schroeder 0 #67 July 10, 2003 Right, I agree about this: Quote That's fine with me; I'd rather live in a world with more, rather than less, compassion. It makes the world a better place overall. So I think we're on the same page, my question was regarding the arbitrary granting of pardons to certain animals with which we, as you said, feel a kinship. For me, I feel this with everything, and thus do my best to kill nothing. My point was that we should extend this pardon to all animals if we're going to extend it to 'some'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #68 July 10, 2003 I went to a slaughter house a few years back ,out of curiousity,I managed to get a tour when they where fully at work,so you can imagine... I have seen the cow from get stunned,then butchered ,all within minutes,and some of the tools these guys use make ' Jason' look like childs play. Just a thought really,but I wonder if anyone seen this ,would it change there view on eating meat? I try to maintain a healthy diet and try to cut out as much meat as possible.But after my visit,it was a few weeks before I touched Beef or Lamb again !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #69 July 10, 2003 QuoteBut after my visit,it was a few weeks before I touched Beef or Lamb again !! Sissy!!! __________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeMike 0 #70 July 10, 2003 Keely, How do you figure letting bulls run down a street as torture? Better not go back to Texas with that hippy crap. Come over an do my website. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groovychic 0 #71 July 10, 2003 Shotgun... I feel EXACTLY like you do on this...I get tickled when the poor animal gets some revenge in the name of its many brothers who were brutaly killed... I am not a tree hugger, I grew up on the rodeo circuit, but that shit is uncalled for... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #72 July 10, 2003 oy jedi ....it was gruesome...the smell was something.. But it didnt stop me eating another type of popular meat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #73 July 10, 2003 QuoteJust a thought really,but I wonder if anyone seen this ,would it change there view on eating meat? I've seen it. I've also hunted before. All hunters will tell you that the animals don't always die immediately and you have to finish them off. You have to get past that. The stun gun is probably the most humane way because it is quick. People eat beef and chicken because they have an emotional distance there. Actually, cows are quite friendly and will nuzzle you like a dog. You don't want to be friends with lunch. People in other cultures do not have attachments for the same animals that we do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #74 July 10, 2003 Quote>Seeing how people (who somehow think a kittens/puppy/bull's life is > worth more than fish's, turkey's, or cow's) fawn over their kittens, > before sittings down to a turkey dinner is one of the most annoying > things ever. Some life IS more valuable than others. Dogs are more valuable, more protected, more loved, closer to humans etc than ants are. That's just life. Our feelings of mercy, humanity, compassion etc are, in general, reserved for those animals that are like us, and that we perceive have feelings similar to ours. Dogs, cats, apes, dolphins etc fall under this category. We feel a kinship with them; we think they are like us and can feel pain and sorrow in a similar way. Squirrels, rats, cows, goats are less so. Insects - not at all. Personally, I kill ants and flies without thinking about it, but I'll give spiders one chance to escape before I smash them. Rodents I'll use live traps for, and if I see an injured cat or dog, I'll do what I can to help them. Is there anything objective that says a dog's life is more valuable than an ant's? No. Just how we perceive the world to be. That's fine with me; I'd rather live in a world with more, rather than less, compassion. It makes the world a better place overall.\ nice post, i agree mostly but feel obligated to point out that the same distinctions and argument can apply from one human to the next... some peoples lives are more valuable (to an individual not as a society) than others.. compassion is what allows everyone to tolerate each other...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #75 July 10, 2003 I've seen it. I've also hunted before. All hunters will tell you that the animals don't always die immediately and you have to finish them off. You have to get past that. The stun gun is probably the most humane way because it is quick. People eat beef and chicken because they have an emotional distance there. Actually, cows are quite friendly and will nuzzle you like a dog. You don't want to be friends with lunch. People in other cultures do not have attachments for the same animals that we do. ----------------------------------------------- First of all I don't need to go to a slaughter house to see how things are done there. We can all watch it in the documentary "Faces of Death." I have seen it and have didn't enjoy it but have accepted it as a necessary evil. I did not stop eating meat because of it. As you have stated they kill the animals in the most humae way possible. Bull fighting is a way to kill the bull in the most INHUMANE way possible. It is difficult for me to understand how they can fill an arena with people who want to see such a horrific display. If I did not have the luxury of bying meat from the butcher I would hunt but I would not enjoy it and I would do it as quickly and humanely and I possibly could. It would saden me far less to have to shoot somebody who was trying to inflict harm on me than to shoot a defenseless animal. As for the other cultures eating different animals, I do not find any justification for this. It goes back to the food chain and what is necessary to sustain life, Chlorophyl. Plants make it for themselves through Photosynthesis, Herbivorous animals have the abiility to take it from the plants. And carnivorous animails (humans included) must eat the Herbivores because they can not get the chlorophyl directly from the plant. You would never see a dog eating a snake because a snake is carnivorous. People eat rabbit, cows, deer, goats, pigs, etc. All of these animals being herbivorous. Its the way the food chain works. Vegitarians are not truly healthy people. Anybody who suggest they are either does not know what he is talking about or is just trying to push foward a political agenda. Now as for people eating dogs, cats, snakes or other carnivores, these people are going against nature. Typically this is done in China which is extremely over populated and under resourced. They are trying to eat anything they can possibly get their hands on to avoid starving. But that still does not make it right. To say its because of their culture is just giving them an excuse.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
