sundevil777 94 #1 September 21, 2003 Fox News reporting on a Toronto Star story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97772,00.html General Clark Gets Called Out Three months after Former NATO Commander and now Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark (search) insisted that a mysterious caller on September 11, 2001…a caller Clark first said was from the White House…pressured him into linking the attacks with Saddam Hussein, the caller has now identified himself. He is Thomas Hecht of Montreal, founder of a Middle Eastern think tank based in Israel. He says he made the call to pass on information of a potential link he heard about from Israeli sources, and, he says, he did not pressure Clark at all. What's more, Hecht tells the Toronto Star that he did not make the call on September 11 but sometime in the days afterward, adding, "I don't know why I would be confused with the White House. I don't even have white paint on my house."People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #2 September 21, 2003 Jeepers creepers if its on Fox News it must be true! blues jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #3 September 21, 2003 QuoteJeepers creepers if its on Fox News it must be true! This is a report from the Toronto Star, about a wild accusation against the administration that was made on TV by the Gen. It is convenient for many to dismiss any story from Fox News. Please attack the substance of the story, if you can, not the source.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #4 September 21, 2003 He says - she says... How do you know this Thomas Hecht is telling the truth? Is he more credible than a retired US Army general? Even if he made a call, does it mean it was the only call made? Sorry, it will take more than that story to convince me of anything.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #5 September 21, 2003 Well, directly from the horses mouth: Previously, Clark claimed publicly that after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, he was pressured by the Bush administration to link the attacks directly to Iraq. When pressed on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes show, Clark refused to name White House names and instead fingered a public policy think tank in Canada. "I personally got a call from a fellow in Canada who is part of a Middle Eastern think tank who gets inside intelligence information. He called me on 9/11," Clark said. What I find funny is this other story that the white house got him off CNN. He makes these accusations on TV where he has an audience, but then says, well, i don't have the proof, but those are the rumors... Quote"Apparently they called CNN. I don't have all the proof on this because they didn't call me. I've only heard rumors about it." If you would like to read the whole article here it is. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95714,00.html That is crap... Apparently they called... Why General is that apparent? What proof makes it apparent? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #6 September 21, 2003 I supported the war on Iraq initially, but I'm getting the feeling that I may have been completely wrong. I hate how the US gov't is shifting the focus to terrorists in Iraq after no WMDs were found. I still believe there were WMDs in Iraq, just because we can't find them doesn't mean that we need a new excuse to justify the war. Iraq may have harbored every other terrorist organization known to man, but there hasn't been a shred of convincing evidence when it comes to Ossama's bunch. This is ridiculous, and the media is just lapping it up instead of saying "how dare you treat us like imbuciles?". And, on top of all this I've just learned some very disturbing stuff about recent US history. I should add here that until last week I was one of the biggest hawks in my university, but that doesn't stop me from objectively considering evidence, and I'm on the verge of switching sides. The stuff that changed my mind was mostly a result of taking political science for the first time, in which I learned the following; 1. The US has actually been convicted by the United Nations of sponsoring terrorism. This was a result of sponsoring a guerilla war in central america. I couldn't believe this, so I checked for myself and sure enough it's true. 2. This one is a little murkier and frankly I don't really believe it myself, but what actually happened to the US air force on 9-11. Is it not FAA standard procedure to have the Air Force scramble an interceptor if radio contact is lost with a commercial flight for more than a certain time period? Why were no jets sent to investigate when the 2nd, 3rd and 4th planes were hijacked? It was a matter of hours before interceptors were scrambled to my knowledge. This makes no sense, either there was gross incompetence or there was some kind of stand down in place. If the first is true, why were no reprimands handed down? I'm not saying the government just let the attacks happen, but seriously wtf is going on with the world? I'm normally the last person to critize the US gov't, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to its citizens, but I'm going to be very uncomfortable if I don't find an explanation for question #2.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #7 September 21, 2003 I am a bit Confused about number 2. Call you local FAA HQ and ask to purchas the ETMS flight data for the eastcoast. You will clearly see jets were scrambled. Contact was not lost exactly how you think. For instance, a plane is not in communication at all times especially when a route is preplanned. Communication typicall happens when a flight is passed from one sector to another sector, or when there is traffic or rerouting. On 9-11, the two jets from Boston were in communication for a considerable amount of time. Ironically, NY tracon was talking with one flight about a potential hijacking just before that plane was hijacked too. When the first plane changed course in western MA and headed toward "J6" (flight route south) N90(FAA name for NY TRACON) called to the plane. There was no response. N90 then contacted another nearby plane. They were asked to get a visual on the potential hijacked flight. They did, and the United flight was asked to stay with them. Now, the two planes were only about 120 miles from NYC and all of a sudden N90 lost communication with the second plane. ETMS data shows the planes actually almost collided. The next move for the FAA was to contact ZBW (Boston Center) Since the airspace over laps in those areas at different altitudes. There could havve been a frequencey issue, and it is entirely possible the planes were talking to ZBW, or ZNY instead of N90. By this time one of the planes was now just 60 miles from NYC traveling DAMN Fast. The second plane had gone back north. All concern went to the first plane, and the thinking was the second plane wasn't an issue (initially). We know what happened next. Now, the FAA still did not know this was a hijacking since there was no transponder code to show this. The Interceptors were called shortly after the first impact. However, the nearest base was in Cape Cod MA. 4 times as far away as the second plane was. The planes took off within 6 minutes of the call. It took the interceptors nearly 12.5 minutes to reach NY. By that time the second plane had hit. As for the other 2 planes... Jets too were scrambled. There is a bit of speculation that the plane down in PA was shot down, but that is speculation. There was a jet trailing the fourth all the way to DC, but it didn't get there in time. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #8 September 21, 2003 QuoteWell, directly from the horses mouth: Previously, Clark claimed publicly that after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, he was pressured by the Bush administration to link the attacks directly to Iraq. When pressed on Fox News' Hannity & Colmes show, Clark refused to name White House names and instead fingered a public policy think tank in Canada. "I personally got a call from a fellow in Canada who is part of a Middle Eastern think tank who gets inside intelligence information. He called me on 9/11," Clark said. What I find funny is this other story that the white house got him off CNN. He makes these accusations on TV where he has an audience, but then says, well, i don't have the proof, but those are the rumors... Quote"Apparently they called CNN. I don't have all the proof on this because they didn't call me. I've only heard rumors about it." If you would like to read the whole article here it is. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95714,00.html That is crap... Apparently they called... Why General is that apparent? What proof makes it apparent? I have no knowledge that would confirm or deny your claims. I wonder, however, why this rumor based "crap" offends you more than the White House's "proof" about the existence of WMDs that never turned up, or the months of administration innuendo linking Iraq to OBL that the White House has only this week, after a lot of prodding, got around to denying? I don't recall seeing you write a single word about that "crap".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #9 September 21, 2003 Well, let me first say, i have no doubt there are/were WMD in Iraq. I have an idea fo you. I am going to hide 1 55 gallon drum in the state of MA. Now, go get 10k of your friends and come back when you find it. In case that doesnt work for you how about this. December 16, 1998 - President Bill Clinton. "Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors." So, for more than 5 years, the intelligence of the USA has believed Iraq has WMD and is willing to use it. So much so that BILL CLINTON AND GEORGE BUSH HAVE ACTED PREEMPTIVELY AGAINST IRAQ. So, I am taking politics out of it. I believed the intel in 98, and i believe it today. There are wmd's there somewhere. We know for a fact they were there at one point. Shit, they were used there, we can prove that. And both the Clinton and Bush administrations had good reason to believe they are still there. Not a small country you know. Now, OBL and Iraq ... I don't see the evidence, however, I don't think OBL is the reason we went to war with Iraq. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #10 September 21, 2003 Also as a side note the the Response time for the intersepts. In the mid to late 90's there was a good deal of Miliitary cut backs and base closures. Had this not been the case, maybe there would have been closer air bases than Barnstable County MA. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #11 September 21, 2003 Quote Not a small country you know. Quote Indeed - so why did GWB expect the UN inspectors to find evidence so quickly, when US troops in control of the country can't? Quote Now, OBL and Iraq ... I don't see the evidence, however, I don't think OBL is the reason we went to war with Iraq. Chris General Clark isn't the reason either, but you are really pissed with him for apparently lying, but give GWB a pass for (at the very least) allowing his administration to mislead and misdirect the public for months about OBL and Iraq.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #12 September 21, 2003 I don't really get it.... I don't remember being told Sadaam and OBL we friends or were connected. Can you refer me to the places where I can get that info? Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,635 #13 September 21, 2003 QuoteI don't really get it.... I don't remember being told Sadaam and OBL we friends or were connected. Can you refer me to the places where I can get that info? Chris Been asleep?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #14 September 21, 2003 No, but if you are going to make a statement, back it up. In fact the only thing I can think of was Bush say the other day that there was no connection. Other than that I personally have never heard of a connection. I have never heard anyone try to make one. I heard WMD. So, you made a statement... give me some facts. Just like I say to Clark. Who knows...Maybe clark is right, but show me some even a bit of proof the the Government got you taken off CNN. That is a pretty big accusation to make. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #15 September 21, 2003 They have alwasys asserted, and I lean in agreement, that Iraq has had ties to Al Qaeda. I've never heard anything that said there was a link between 9/11 and Hussein.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #16 September 21, 2003 Thanks for clearing that up, I guess my poli sci prof is full of shit. I didn't really want to take him at his word so i thought i'd post the thing where pilots, or ppl informed on aviation would reply. I'm just glad to know something was at least attempted. On the other hand, it's odd that the interceptors wouldn't catch the airliner over DC, after all Andrews AFB is right there and it's their job to protect the capital. I believe there were 2 squadrons of interceptors there at the time. On the other planes though it seems like there's a good explanation. I wasn't ready to believe the gov't was complicit in the attack, but there's still some stuff I'm gonna look into myself, especially as u mentionned the flight data from the FAA. On the WMD thing, it didn't offend me to be told they were in Iraq because it's been confirmed by weapons inspectors that at the time they were kicked out there were chemical weapons (at least) left in the country. As if the gov't would just get rid of them.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #17 September 21, 2003 It's one thing to assert that Al Qaeda has ties with Iraq, but where's the evidence? I would be obliged if someone could fill me in on specifically why Bush is saying this, the only concrete thing I remember about Iraq and Al Qaeda is that one of the organization's members received medical treatment there last year, which is hardly an indictment.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,635 #18 September 21, 2003 QuoteNo, but if you are going to make a statement, back it up. In fact the only thing I can think of was Bush say the other day that there was no connection. Other than that I personally have never heard of a connection. I have never heard anyone try to make one. I heard WMD. So, you made a statement... give me some facts. Just like I say to Clark. Who knows...Maybe clark is right, but show me some even a bit of proof the the Government got you taken off CNN. That is a pretty big accusation to make. Chris I said "mislead and misdirect". It's all been laid out before, such as here www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=666306#666306... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #19 September 21, 2003 QuoteI said "mislead and misdirect". It's all been laid out before, such as here www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=666306#666306 This may steal some of your thunder, but if you browse to the end of the thread, Lummy sums up the press references to public perception mere days after the attacks. More than one poll too. While I don't trust polls 100%, one can still draw a "mood" from them. The perception was there before anyone in the administration spoke a word.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #20 September 21, 2003 QuoteThanks for clearing that up, I guess my poli sci prof is full of shit. Most of them are IMO. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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storm1977 0 #12 September 21, 2003 I don't really get it.... I don't remember being told Sadaam and OBL we friends or were connected. Can you refer me to the places where I can get that info? Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #13 September 21, 2003 QuoteI don't really get it.... I don't remember being told Sadaam and OBL we friends or were connected. Can you refer me to the places where I can get that info? Chris Been asleep?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #14 September 21, 2003 No, but if you are going to make a statement, back it up. In fact the only thing I can think of was Bush say the other day that there was no connection. Other than that I personally have never heard of a connection. I have never heard anyone try to make one. I heard WMD. So, you made a statement... give me some facts. Just like I say to Clark. Who knows...Maybe clark is right, but show me some even a bit of proof the the Government got you taken off CNN. That is a pretty big accusation to make. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #15 September 21, 2003 They have alwasys asserted, and I lean in agreement, that Iraq has had ties to Al Qaeda. I've never heard anything that said there was a link between 9/11 and Hussein.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #16 September 21, 2003 Thanks for clearing that up, I guess my poli sci prof is full of shit. I didn't really want to take him at his word so i thought i'd post the thing where pilots, or ppl informed on aviation would reply. I'm just glad to know something was at least attempted. On the other hand, it's odd that the interceptors wouldn't catch the airliner over DC, after all Andrews AFB is right there and it's their job to protect the capital. I believe there were 2 squadrons of interceptors there at the time. On the other planes though it seems like there's a good explanation. I wasn't ready to believe the gov't was complicit in the attack, but there's still some stuff I'm gonna look into myself, especially as u mentionned the flight data from the FAA. On the WMD thing, it didn't offend me to be told they were in Iraq because it's been confirmed by weapons inspectors that at the time they were kicked out there were chemical weapons (at least) left in the country. As if the gov't would just get rid of them.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #17 September 21, 2003 It's one thing to assert that Al Qaeda has ties with Iraq, but where's the evidence? I would be obliged if someone could fill me in on specifically why Bush is saying this, the only concrete thing I remember about Iraq and Al Qaeda is that one of the organization's members received medical treatment there last year, which is hardly an indictment.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #18 September 21, 2003 QuoteNo, but if you are going to make a statement, back it up. In fact the only thing I can think of was Bush say the other day that there was no connection. Other than that I personally have never heard of a connection. I have never heard anyone try to make one. I heard WMD. So, you made a statement... give me some facts. Just like I say to Clark. Who knows...Maybe clark is right, but show me some even a bit of proof the the Government got you taken off CNN. That is a pretty big accusation to make. Chris I said "mislead and misdirect". It's all been laid out before, such as here www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=666306#666306... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #19 September 21, 2003 QuoteI said "mislead and misdirect". It's all been laid out before, such as here www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=666306#666306 This may steal some of your thunder, but if you browse to the end of the thread, Lummy sums up the press references to public perception mere days after the attacks. More than one poll too. While I don't trust polls 100%, one can still draw a "mood" from them. The perception was there before anyone in the administration spoke a word.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #20 September 21, 2003 QuoteThanks for clearing that up, I guess my poli sci prof is full of shit. Most of them are IMO. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
